I wish she would invite me to dinner at the F.U.N. show or ANA to talk/teach me about coins and the market the entire time. I'd promise to use good manners and not say a peep.
Laura, my phone # is 813-555-2017. Please call me.
@Insider2 said:
I wish she would invite me to dinner at the F.U.N. show or ANA to talk/teach me about coins and the market the entire time. I'd promise to use good manners and not say a peep.
Laura, my phone # is 813-555-2017. Please call me.
Are you sure you want your phone# on a public forum for all the world to see?
Why not call Laura at Legend....I bet she will take your call.
After I finished the article I contemplated whether I fell into the Realm of Weenie, or the Kingdom of Dweeb. Certainly a conundrum as I had most recently adjudicated myself a malcontent or, at the very least, a ne'er do well.
I wondered silently if my opinions on CAC or my taste in coins or my collection building strategies would please this person who had so freely marginalized me. I stared at the iPad and reached over and had a swallow of Boddingtons followed by a healthy sip of 18 year old Macallan. As I became lost in thought, my eyes drifted to the wool blanket on the bed, across the wood floor and up the wall of the log cabin to the window.
Butterflies were gently floating over the meadow filled with Indian Paintbrush and tall grass and the buzz of hummingbirds was just strong enough to break through the sound of the Snake River as it flowed relentlessly by. My gaze went past the Aspen and slowly up the side of the Tetons, still reluctant to surrender their last icing of Winter's snow.
And, within the cradle of what is arguably the most serene and beautiful Eden on our planet, I remembered that I had been called far worse by far better people than she. If you enjoy the way you collect, then you are doing it right. I would waste more of your lives, but I need to get up early tomorrow and not catch more fish.
Guess when some can't simply agree or disagree with someone with civility, then they go for the grade school jugular. What a pity. The defense used for so many of these boors is "Golly, why do we have to be sooooo PC, everyone is such a snowflake!" Sounds so familiar...
@basetsb said:
Generally, people who only buy PCGS CAC are in it for the money and not the collection.
Generally I couldn't disagree more. I think just the opposite. Since there isn't a "couldn't disagree more option" I didn't hit disagree
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I think she's just plain wrong with this PCGS & CAC = No doctored coins. I'm at Summer Seminar and the grading 3 class had a set of 20 coins that contained, not one, not two, not three, but five counterfeit/altered coins that got straight graded with a CAC, to prove exactly the opposite point.
I could make a birth year registry set out of pocket change.
I disagree with this statement. "Generally, people who only buy PCGS CAC are in it for the money and not the collection."
I see many serious collectors who are interested in buying only CAC approved coins. Personally I'll buy a coin I like regardless of whether it's certified or not.
@Danye West said:
I think she's just plain wrong with this PCGS & CAC = No doctored coins. I'm at Summer Seminar and the grading 3 class had a set of 20 coins that contained, not one, not two, not three, but five counterfeit/altered coins that got straight graded with a CAC, to prove exactly the opposite point.
The reasoning is that CAC provides a guarantee against doctoring, not that doctored coins cannot pass. Others won't provide any such guarantee.
@Danye West said:
I think she's just plain wrong with this PCGS & CAC = No doctored coins. I'm at Summer Seminar and the grading 3 class had a set of 20 coins that contained, not one, not two, not three, but five counterfeit/altered coins that got straight graded with a CAC, to prove exactly the opposite point.
So the "64 sub 5 figure coins" was correct. It would have been more clear worded as:
64 sub 5 figure coins
30 5+ figure coins
Oops my bad, I actually meant <$1,000 coins (off by a digit when I meant sub 4 figure, not 5) in my original post, zoins is correct on his tally.
Best, SH
Building a collection on sub 4 figure (3 figure) coins from Legend can be challenging. I've never seen more than 8 3 figure coins on their site at any given time, but they are around so it would be more serendipity there.
@Danye West said:
I think she's just plain wrong with this PCGS & CAC = No doctored coins. I'm at Summer Seminar and the grading 3 class had a set of 20 coins that contained, not one, not two, not three, but five counterfeit/altered coins that got straight graded with a CAC, to prove exactly the opposite point.
Those are strong words. Yes, TPGS's have slabbed counterfeits and It's a good bet that if they got past PCGS or NGC they would pass at CAC. What are the coins? Who said they were C/F, you or your instructors?
IMO, you are in an advanced grading class and those coins were put in with the rest as "ringers" to teach students a lesson and make them want to sign-up for C/F detection next. Its done in every class I've been in.
Furthermore, if the ANA is sticking true mistakes into a class setting I would sue their butts - not for money but for them to post a full page apology in Gray Sheet and every numismatic publication I could think of and then demand the slabs be returned to the TPGS for destruction. The ANA could have the fakes after they were cracked.
I think we all would like to know what the coin s were. Waiting...
@Danye West said:
I think she's just plain wrong with this PCGS & CAC = No doctored coins. I'm at Summer Seminar and the grading 3 class had a set of 20 coins that contained, not one, not two, not three, but five counterfeit/altered coins that got straight graded with a CAC, to prove exactly the opposite point.
@Zoins said:
The reasoning is that CAC provides a guarantee against doctoring, not that doctored coins cannot pass. Others won't provide any such guarantee.
@wizzy1 said: @Zoins said:
The reasoning is that CAC provides a guarantee against doctoring, not that doctored coins cannot pass. Others won't provide any such guarantee.
Not much of a guarantee then, is it.
Seems very useful to me. A guarantee is for when you need it, not when you don't.
@pennyannie said:
I doubt those 2 gold buyers will do anymore biz with legend after being called out. People with money and egos..?
They do biz with Legend because Laura WILL call them out...
I agree. I would rather have someone call me out and give me an honest opinion as opposed to sugar coating things. I'll give Laura credit that she won't sugar coat and that she will give an honest opinion.
While her bedside manner might need some work her passion and experience everyday in the trenches trumps hurt feelings. At least it should.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I believe that PCGS and CAC's guarantee's are equal too or better then any other grading or approval coin companies. If these coins are counterfeit/altered and were graded by PCGS and approved by CAC the owners can send them in for review and they should be compensated. PCGS and NGC have bought back millions of dollars worth of their coins. JA has done this for the LSCC as well as dealers and collectors.
@Insider2 said:
Laura, Please call. Le't do lunch. 813-555-2017
You might do better in a non meal setting. Her personal style matches the style of her prose, and it might not be good for you digestive tract. Still you might find such a meeting interesting and stimulating.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Danye West said:
I think she's just plain wrong with this PCGS & CAC = No doctored coins. I'm at Summer Seminar and the grading 3 class had a set of 20 coins that contained, not one, not two, not three, but five counterfeit/altered coins that got straight graded with a CAC, to prove exactly the opposite point.
How many were gold?
Are you implying that CAC never makes mistakes on gold coins? If so I can show two gold coin mistakes, but it might be a couple of days before I can do that.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Insider2 said:
Laura, Please call. Le't do lunch. 813-555-2017
You might do better in a non meal setting. Her personal style matches the style of her prose, and it might not be good for you digestive tract. Still you might find such a meeting interesting and stimulating.
@Danye West said:
I think she's just plain wrong with this PCGS & CAC = No doctored coins. I'm at Summer Seminar and the grading 3 class had a set of 20 coins that contained, not one, not two, not three, but five counterfeit/altered coins that got straight graded with a CAC, to prove exactly the opposite point.
How many were gold?
Are you implying that CAC never makes mistakes on gold coins? If so I can show two gold coin mistakes, but it might be a couple of days before I can do that.
Despite all the controversy and criticism aimed her way (some deserved) and the parsing of what exactly she means on PCGS and CAC, I agree with Laura's basic point. I have progressed in my numismatic knowledge enough to recognize which of my coins are minor grading disagreements, which are C coins, and which are ones I should get rid of. Whats new to me is how strongly dealers feel about getting rid of the clunkers, I had a discussion about this with a well known and respected dealer at LB, and they had the same strong opinion as Laura expresses in her blog.
@AngryTurtle said:
....I have progressed in my numismatic knowledge enough to recognize which of my coins are minor grading disagreements, which are C coins, and which are ones I should get rid of. Whats new to me is how strongly dealers feel about getting rid of the clunkers, I had a discussion about this with a well known and respected dealer at LB, and they had the same strong opinion as Laura expresses in her blog.
Removing true clunkers is probably a good idea. Though often times one dealer's clunker is the next guy's gem. Selling clunkers, and replacing them with new material supports market "activity,"....which is always good for dealers.
@AngryTurtle said:
....I have progressed in my numismatic knowledge enough to recognize which of my coins are minor grading disagreements, which are C coins, and which are ones I should get rid of. Whats new to me is how strongly dealers feel about getting rid of the clunkers, I had a discussion about this with a well known and respected dealer at LB, and they had the same strong opinion as Laura expresses in her blog.
Removing true clunkers is probably a good idea. Though often times one dealer's clunker is the next guy's gem. Selling clunkers, and replacing them with new material supports market "activity,"....which is always good for dealers.
Yes, there is the churn factor to be avoided, but these clunkers I had already identified, but not taken action on. Dealers do have a "bias toward action" that I dont! I am a buy and hold type by nature, so a bit of churn is good for me.
@basetsb said:
Generally, people who only buy PCGS CAC are in it for the money and not the collection.
Don't get addicted to silliness. Any number of serious collectors patiently building sets buy only PCGS/CAC. I am one of them.
Maybe a better way of saying that is that generally, those who buy PCGS CAC are concerned about the money being spent, and are looking to minimize potential losses...and optimizing the chance for potential profits?
@shish said:
I disagree with this statement. "Generally, people who only buy PCGS CAC are in it for the money and not the collection."
I see many serious collectors who are interested in buying only CAC approved coins. Personally I'll buy a coin I like regardless of whether it's certified or not.
This is pretty close to my approach. As I have built my collection I have set a goal to have all the coins be PCGS and CAC. However, I concluded a while back that buying only PCGS CAC coins was the most limiting and expensive way to get there. I find I can buy NGC coins with and without CAC stickers at a discount to PCGS.
Both my $1 and $2.50 Pan Pac commems were purchased off of ebay unstickered and in NGC plastic at solid discounts to PCGS examples. Both crossed at grade to PCGS and both made it through CAC. If I see a nice coin I need in NGC CAC I buy it, crack it out, and submit it raw to PCGS. So far no downgrades doing this and they CAC again.
Some coins I have did not get a CAC sticker but are still in my collection because I like them and that is what really counts. I am really sad to see so many folks get so angry participating in a hobby that is supposed to bring them happiness.
@Danye West said:
I think she's just plain wrong with this PCGS & CAC = No doctored coins. I'm at Summer Seminar and the grading 3 class had a set of 20 coins that contained, not one, not two, not three, but five counterfeit/altered coins that got straight graded with a CAC, to prove exactly the opposite point.
Sometimes they let the counterfeits pass when they consider them market-acceptable. No different than a light cleaning
@Danye West said:
I think she's just plain wrong with this PCGS & CAC = No doctored coins. I'm at Summer Seminar and the grading 3 class had a set of 20 coins that contained, not one, not two, not three, but five counterfeit/altered coins that got straight graded with a CAC, to prove exactly the opposite point.
Sometimes they let the counterfeits pass when they consider them market-acceptable. No different than a light cleaning
IMO, there may be folks here who will believe this. I thought you were serious at first!
@Ezmoney said:
I heard she couldn't grade a raw coin accurately if she wanted to so maybe that is why she relies so heavily on the PC CAC combo.
I have had her buy multiple coins in the near six figure area for me raw based upon her opinion....and one approaching $300k. RAW. I never even saw them ahead of time.
I have bought a number of IHC PR coins and MPL coins from Legend. They were all great quality and very reasonably priced. Laura has not offered any advice with my IHC PR Basic Registry Set, which is #3. Not bad for a set of BN and RB coins. But I do have two 64's in a set that averages almost 66. They are on my upgrade list and she makes a great point about the value of uniform high quality of the set.
Laura's opinions are always worth the read, whether you agree with her or not. Because her focus is more on the collection than the coin.
Comments
I wish she would invite me to dinner at the F.U.N. show or ANA to talk/teach me about coins and the market the entire time. I'd promise to use good manners and not say a peep.
Laura, my phone # is 813-555-2017. Please call me.
Oh geez nobody can take a joke around here?
Are you sure you want your phone# on a public forum for all the world to see?
Why not call Laura at Legend....I bet she will take your call.
edited to add: Stupid me, just saw the 555
Not a tasteless crass so called joke - no
We must be from different eras, ever heard of Richard Pryor? Loosen up
After I finished the article I contemplated whether I fell into the Realm of Weenie, or the Kingdom of Dweeb. Certainly a conundrum as I had most recently adjudicated myself a malcontent or, at the very least, a ne'er do well.
I wondered silently if my opinions on CAC or my taste in coins or my collection building strategies would please this person who had so freely marginalized me. I stared at the iPad and reached over and had a swallow of Boddingtons followed by a healthy sip of 18 year old Macallan. As I became lost in thought, my eyes drifted to the wool blanket on the bed, across the wood floor and up the wall of the log cabin to the window.
Butterflies were gently floating over the meadow filled with Indian Paintbrush and tall grass and the buzz of hummingbirds was just strong enough to break through the sound of the Snake River as it flowed relentlessly by. My gaze went past the Aspen and slowly up the side of the Tetons, still reluctant to surrender their last icing of Winter's snow.
And, within the cradle of what is arguably the most serene and beautiful Eden on our planet, I remembered that I had been called far worse by far better people than she. If you enjoy the way you collect, then you are doing it right. I would waste more of your lives, but I need to get up early tomorrow and not catch more fish.
Guess when some can't simply agree or disagree with someone with civility, then they go for the grade school jugular. What a pity. The defense used for so many of these boors is "Golly, why do we have to be sooooo PC, everyone is such a snowflake!" Sounds so familiar...
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Generally I couldn't disagree more. I think just the opposite. Since there isn't a "couldn't disagree more option" I didn't hit disagree
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Goldbully said: Why not call Laura at Legend....I bet she will take your call.
I'm too shy.
Don't deflect. You were wrong to have made that comment, and you should just admit it, apologize, and move on like an adult.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Agreed, dealer has to find their niche in the market, Legend has the top end.
Best, SH
Oops my bad, I actually meant <$1,000 coins (off by a digit when I meant sub 4 figure, not 5) in my original post, zoins is correct on his tally.
Best, SH
What does Richard Pryor have to do with being civil (or not) on these boards?
Best, SH
You aren't Richard Pryor
I read the article. One can always count on Laura for a good dose of self promotion.
I doubt those 2 gold buyers will do anymore biz with legend after being called out. People with money and egos..?
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I think she's just plain wrong with this PCGS & CAC = No doctored coins. I'm at Summer Seminar and the grading 3 class had a set of 20 coins that contained, not one, not two, not three, but five counterfeit/altered coins that got straight graded with a CAC, to prove exactly the opposite point.
I disagree with this statement. "Generally, people who only buy PCGS CAC are in it for the money and not the collection."
I see many serious collectors who are interested in buying only CAC approved coins. Personally I'll buy a coin I like regardless of whether it's certified or not.
The reasoning is that CAC provides a guarantee against doctoring, not that doctored coins cannot pass. Others won't provide any such guarantee.
How many were gold?
Building a collection on sub 4 figure (3 figure) coins from Legend can be challenging. I've never seen more than 8 3 figure coins on their site at any given time, but they are around so it would be more serendipity there.
Those are strong words. Yes, TPGS's have slabbed counterfeits and It's a good bet that if they got past PCGS or NGC they would pass at CAC. What are the coins? Who said they were C/F, you or your instructors?
IMO, you are in an advanced grading class and those coins were put in with the rest as "ringers" to teach students a lesson and make them want to sign-up for C/F detection next. Its done in every class I've been in.
Furthermore, if the ANA is sticking true mistakes into a class setting I would sue their butts - not for money but for them to post a full page apology in Gray Sheet and every numismatic publication I could think of and then demand the slabs be returned to the TPGS for destruction. The ANA could have the fakes after they were cracked.
I think we all would like to know what the coin s were. Waiting...
They do biz with Legend because Laura WILL call them out...
I agree. It's more important to have people tell you what you need to hear than people tell you what you want to hear.
Laura, Please call. Le't do lunch. 813-555-2017
Were they colonials or territorials?
@Zoins said:
The reasoning is that CAC provides a guarantee against doctoring, not that doctored coins cannot pass. Others won't provide any such guarantee.
Not much of a guarantee then, is it.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/133461
Seems very useful to me. A guarantee is for when you need it, not when you don't.
Who else has one?
I agree. I would rather have someone call me out and give me an honest opinion as opposed to sugar coating things. I'll give Laura credit that she won't sugar coat and that she will give an honest opinion.
While her bedside manner might need some work her passion and experience everyday in the trenches trumps hurt feelings. At least it should.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I believe that PCGS and CAC's guarantee's are equal too or better then any other grading or approval coin companies. If these coins are counterfeit/altered and were graded by PCGS and approved by CAC the owners can send them in for review and they should be compensated. PCGS and NGC have bought back millions of dollars worth of their coins. JA has done this for the LSCC as well as dealers and collectors.
You might do better in a non meal setting. Her personal style matches the style of her prose, and it might not be good for you digestive tract. Still you might find such a meeting interesting and stimulating.
Are you implying that CAC never makes mistakes on gold coins? If so I can show two gold coin mistakes, but it might be a couple of days before I can do that.
Will I lose fingers or toes?
It's more fun dealing with Bruce... but he is gracious.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
@Danye West
Still waiting for you to back up the statement you made about Grading 3. I'll call your teacher when he gets back home.
Not implying anything---just a question
Despite all the controversy and criticism aimed her way (some deserved) and the parsing of what exactly she means on PCGS and CAC, I agree with Laura's basic point. I have progressed in my numismatic knowledge enough to recognize which of my coins are minor grading disagreements, which are C coins, and which are ones I should get rid of. Whats new to me is how strongly dealers feel about getting rid of the clunkers, I had a discussion about this with a well known and respected dealer at LB, and they had the same strong opinion as Laura expresses in her blog.
Removing true clunkers is probably a good idea. Though often times one dealer's clunker is the next guy's gem. Selling clunkers, and replacing them with new material supports market "activity,"....which is always good for dealers.
Yes, there is the churn factor to be avoided, but these clunkers I had already identified, but not taken action on. Dealers do have a "bias toward action" that I dont! I am a buy and hold type by nature, so a bit of churn is good for me.
Don't get addicted to silliness. Any number of serious collectors patiently building sets buy only PCGS/CAC. I am one of them.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Some other dealers also come to mind, but Laura has always been very insightful, open and a straight shooter with me.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Maybe a better way of saying that is that generally, those who buy PCGS CAC are concerned about the money being spent, and are looking to minimize potential losses...and optimizing the chance for potential profits?
Wow. I am staying out of this
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
This is pretty close to my approach. As I have built my collection I have set a goal to have all the coins be PCGS and CAC. However, I concluded a while back that buying only PCGS CAC coins was the most limiting and expensive way to get there. I find I can buy NGC coins with and without CAC stickers at a discount to PCGS.
Both my $1 and $2.50 Pan Pac commems were purchased off of ebay unstickered and in NGC plastic at solid discounts to PCGS examples. Both crossed at grade to PCGS and both made it through CAC. If I see a nice coin I need in NGC CAC I buy it, crack it out, and submit it raw to PCGS. So far no downgrades doing this and they CAC again.
Some coins I have did not get a CAC sticker but are still in my collection because I like them and that is what really counts. I am really sad to see so many folks get so angry participating in a hobby that is supposed to bring them happiness.
Sometimes they let the counterfeits pass when they consider them market-acceptable. No different than a light cleaning
IMO, there may be folks here who will believe this. I thought you were serious at first!
I heard she couldn't grade a raw coin accurately if she wanted to so maybe that is why she relies so heavily on the PC CAC combo.
I have had her buy multiple coins in the near six figure area for me raw based upon her opinion....and one approaching $300k. RAW. I never even saw them ahead of time.
So I simply have to say that you have no clue.
I have bought a number of IHC PR coins and MPL coins from Legend. They were all great quality and very reasonably priced. Laura has not offered any advice with my IHC PR Basic Registry Set, which is #3. Not bad for a set of BN and RB coins. But I do have two 64's in a set that averages almost 66. They are on my upgrade list and she makes a great point about the value of uniform high quality of the set.
Laura's opinions are always worth the read, whether you agree with her or not. Because her focus is more on the collection than the coin.
OINK