Indian Cent I need the experts input
tdiaz1979
Posts: 75 ✭✭✭
I am considering buying an Indian Cent. I know it is graded MS65, but is it A, B, or C MS65? I am looking forward to the input!
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I would say a B
BHNC #203
Your first tell, would be the lack of a CAC sticker.
So, basically you are saying if you see a coin without a CAC it is not an A coin. I am new and have some books on order and will have to learn to grade coins myself. Is it the strike of the coin that makes this coin a B or C?
This statement would only be accurate when purchasing a non-CAC coin from a dealer with an inventory of mostly CAC'd coins......
I know dealers with hundreds, if not more, certified coins in inventory, yet they do not send coins to CAC.
So, while CAC sticker presence may be an indication of quality, the lack of this sticker is not truly an indication of non-quality.
Looks like a decent B coin.(judging from photo)
When I buy stuff over the counter, and submit it to the grading services, I usually don't submit it to CAC, because its just not worth the time and most lower dollar items, It already takes quite a bit of time just to get them back now, then add the cost of shipping to and from cac. Not worth it to me. only time I do it , is if a customer requests it, or its something that a cac stickler will make a substantial difference on.
It is still a safe assumption, that most of the slabbed coins in America have not been submitted to CAC. Simply based on the quantity of coins slabbed by the TPG's over the years (yes, I know many have been cracked and resubmitted). CAC has not been in existence long enough to have reviewed all those coins, nor do many collectors submit to CAC. While CAC approval is significant in concurrence that a coin is good for the grade, better than the grade, or not good enough for CAC to buy, and certainly carries weight in the market place, the lack of a sticker cannot be conclusive regarding a coin's status. If you are so concerned over the nebulous A, B, C connotation, which really is splitting the numeric grade even further, I would suggest you enlist noted numismatists to buy for you until you have acquired sufficient skills. An important note... TPG's do not rate coins A, B or C. Cheers, RickO
It looks like a "B" coin to me. There are some very minor darker toning areas in the Indian's cheek and a spot here and there, but the luster and red look strong with very few marks.
But, of course, there is no CAC sticker. We all know that CAC is omnipotent and has passed judgement on all coins that are in PCGS holders. So far NGC coins are concerned, it doesn’t matter. Those PCGS graded coins that do not have CAC's endorsement are at a minimum suspect if not summarily tossed in the dreaded “C bin.”
Come on folks! Get some confidence in your own abilities! Are we all destined to become numismatic grading invalids who must depend upon CAC to approve of our purchases?
Thank you for your response, I like the coin and will see if I can make it happen. And yes, someday I hope to be able to not rely on my skills. I know it will take time and research, but this is why I will enjoy reading the post on this forum.
I definitely agree with Bill's analysis and his remark encouraging collectors to develop and rely on their grading skills. Unfortunately his posts regarding CAC usually contain inaccurate statements and sometimes far fetched accusations.
Such as in his post in this thread:
" We all know that CAC is omnipotent and has passed judgement on all coins that are in PCGS holders."
"So far NGC coins are concerned, it doesn’t matter."
Perhaps he was being sarcastic, I'm not certain.
To my eye it is a middle of the grade coin. The real question you should be asking yourself is: "Is this coin priced in such a way that I will not be buried in it if it turns out the market does not like it in the future when I want to sell it."
If in doubt, pass.
This remark was sarcastic. I have read on these pages that EVERY LOT in the major auctions has been reviewed by CAC which carries the implication that those coins that don’t have CAC stickers failed to get their approval. Balderdash!
I wish that were true. If it was I would not be getting beat up every time I place a bid in an auction lot. I can’t remember the last time I bid on a CAC approved lot in an auction, and yet every item of interest to me usually brings far more than the “Coin Facts” quotes and previous auction results. On 20 cent piece, which was only in PR-63, Cam, no CAC, brought four times the "Coin Facts" quote and was not a particually nice coin in my opinion.
The assumption that every coin that doesn’t have a CAC sticker is bogus.
I purchased an 1838-P $5 gold at the last FUN show. It was graded NGC AU-58, CAC. Some people took one look at it and said "over graded." One of the major retailers who specializes in CAC approved merchandise almost never handles NGC CAC approved coins.
From what I can see PCGS - CAC and NGC - CAC are not on the same plane.
I certainly agree that they are not on the same plane with many people, thanks for clarifying your statement. JA offers the same price for CAC'ed coins.
Looks like a nice coin. Full strike and no spots. Those who say it is a B coin are looking at the lack of a sticker and not the coin.
A "B" is supposed to be worthy of a green CAC sticker. That was what I was saying. I don't see this one as an "A" that might be in-line for an ungrade.
Spots was the first think I looked for. Doesn't have any. Good eye appeal, and as far as we can tell from the pictures, the surfaces are in good shape. I don't have a problem with the 65RD grade from the pictures. I reserve the right to change my mind with the coin in hand.
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I wouldn't say there are no spots. They just aren't glaring and offensive. The coin looks to have nice color and luster. I'd say it's a strong B.
Lance.
Buyers need to be looking down the road to tightened grading standards. Why? Because as the coin market shrinks buyers will become more and more picky.
If you happen to believe that the coin market is growing and will continue to do so, then it is likely my comment is irrelevant.
Overall, it appears nice.
However, and this is a large however, I find the carbon spotting and what might appear to be a slight turning of color around the obverse rim lettering and the feathered head dress to be far more distracting on a coin designated red (RD) than on one designated RB or BN. Additionally, this coin is in a brand-spanking-new PCGS holder and it makes me wonder if, in combination with the already mellowed areas on the coin, the coin might continue to tone down with time and you will end up with an RB in a RD holder. Given how much premium RD IHCs receive vs. generic RB coins, I would not tell a client to buy this.
In other words, I will break from the pack and suggest to pass on the coin.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
While I'd sell that coin all day as graded, I see a little brown starting to show. Probably just the photo. Anyway, I'm interested to know what all of you think about the red and red brown line. Do you just know it when you see it? Is there a certain percent each of you use? In your experience, do each of the TPGS have different percentages? Thanks.
my guess is that coin has never been to CAC...IF I sent that to CAC,I would fully expect it to get a green bean
So my question to you then would be if the price would be equivalent to RB MS-65, would you still steer your client from the Coin? Is the Coin a 65?
Grading from images is a mistake waiting to happen, but I see no issue with the MS65 grade from these images. Again, the point of my post is that I don't exactly trust what this coin will look like a few years down the road. It might be completely stable and look the same, but at the same time it might turn on you and the likelihood of an ugly coin after turning is greater than the likelihood of an attractive coin after turning. So, even if priced as an MS65RB, if you hold onto the coin and it turns into a dog then you are buried. Again, not everyone will agree with me, but I would pass on a coin like this.
Lastly, I believe you may have mentioned you are rather new to the hobby-industry and one thing to learn or keep in mind is that not all coins that are graded the same grade will be the same value. Seems like an odd statement, but it is a kernel of truth that many learn after making quite a few mistakes.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
@TomB said: "In other words, I will break from the pack and suggest to pass on the coin."
I'm not in the pack! I'm with you PASS!
On a RD copper coin, I don't like the darker spots.
I would pass.
I know others wouldn't, and I know dealers will go by the price and then just to resell it, but for my COLLECTION, I wouldn't want it (if there are more examples to be had....ie, it isn't super rare...and I doubt this one is)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
If you are looking for an MS65RD type coin, that is not the one. I do like it, though.
But it is better than the other 65RD there. Ew.
I think it's a nice example, better than the average MS65RD out there (and there are some really bad ones), but it's not the perfect MS65RD.
Looks like it has nice luster and overall flashiness, especially in looking at the obverse photo. Strike looks pretty good too, but there are some minor spots that keep it from the very high end as well as some other minor discolorations that shouldn't be there on a perfect red example. That said, we're only looking at a single set of images which may or may not be fair to the coin.
So I'm thinking B+/A-. Lack of CAC sticker is irrelevant. Most coins have never been to CAC and even if it has, they sometimes do not sticker nice coins and they sometimes sticker ugly ones. Buy coins that YOU like. If you want a nice example and the price is fair, then this one will work. If you want the very best you can get and you are patient and willing to pay up when the right coin comes along, then wait.
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it's not eye appealing to me due to the brown nose effect.
definitely an ms65 and at least a B coin. The color is my only concern
This is not a tough coin. With a little patience a nice one can be had for a sensible price.
Here is a 65RB/CAC of that era that probably should be full red and was bought at a bargain three years ago. I waited longer than I wanted but was happy in the end.
Lance.
Better than a "C" but not by much. Now look at that 1898. That's a knock-out "A"!
The 95 is nice. If you insist on A,B,or,C I would say B because the obverse is a little dark but otherwise I see a nice coin. Make up your mind what you think the grade is and pay accordingly if the seller will deal with you. Otherwise like Lance suggested, wait for another one.
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That is a beautiful Coin and yes I will have to learn patience. Thanks for showing me that beautiful Coin.
Try to find one in an OGH. If it's still red you are likely good to go.
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I like these A,B, and C evaluations.
Herpes is fun, too.
A, B, or C?
Someone please tell me that's not what I think it is....
If you cannot accurately judge color and ABC for red copper, you shouldn't be dabbling in it yet. CAC or EE stickers on copper type coins is somewhat important imo. Those stickers add significant premium. Why wouldn't ANY seller go and get the sticker if the coin easily qualified? Either it doesn't qualify....or the seller is asking a CAC-like price to bypass that decision. I don't know what the sticker rate is on red Indian cents. I do know that their sticker rate on large gem gold type coins is around 3-6%. Go ahead and try to out guess CAC on those coins. So to those that say stickers don't matter, it really depends on what series/type/date-mm/grade.
I'd join the pass crowd too. Don't like the numerous spots already formed, dark feather high points, and the surfaces seem a bit bright for 100% original copper. Whatever coin you do buy, make sure it's a no brainer....like that 1898 MS65 RB CAC. If you do dabble, ogh/old fatty copper is safer or at least proven stable.
That cent looks red to me.
You can't really grade from a photo!
Not all graded coin have been sent to CAC , so a lack of a sticker has NO bearing.
As I said, the '98 should have been graded RD, not RB. It looks full red in hand. I have no idea whether it was simply a mistake or the grader was in a foul mood.
Someday I'll get it regraded, I suppose.
But I do agree, Pat...grading from photos is sometimes a fool's errand.
Lance.