Can someone explain the dealer logic I experienced at a show today?
hutze1nm
Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
I approached a dealer and was browsing their Peace dollar selection. They had a raw 1934-P that I was interested in. They had it marked at MS63 for $275. I thought it was a 64 (Disclaimer: I'm a novice with Peace dollars and we all know they are hard to grade) anyway $275 was a 64 price anyway (from my eBay research) But... I asked him if he thought it was a 63 and he said yes so that doesn't explain the price when I asked him how much it was. He took out a coin world magazine or something and said 63 was $200 and he would sell the coin for $220. I appreciated the discount but I could almost get a slabbed 64 for $200 on an eBay auction for that price and he said it was a 63 which should be less than $200. I asked him about the disconnect, he didn't say much. What's going on here? Aren't Peace dollars in the crapper too any way?
Comments
By the conversation as you presented you may have aggravated the dealer, just a guess. You say he had it marked as a 63. You then asked him if he thought it was a 63? So you first question his ability to grade, then followed it up with his ability to price his inventory.
I have found after almost 35 years of attending coin shows to keep it simple. Look at the coin, if interested ask the price. If the price is acceptable buy it. If not offer the price you are willing to pay. You are then buying the coin at your price, or thanking them for their time and moving on.
Building a good relationship with as many dealers as possible will make the hobby more enjoyable.
As to the price of the series. Maybe the dealer is buried in that coin.
Hope this helps. This is JMHO obviously
No intention to judge. Good luck with your Peace Dollar search
Two things come to mind:
If the dealer has the coin marked 63 I'm not sure why you would ask him if it's a 63. Perhaps asking him if it were a strong 63 might have been more appropriate.
Secondly if you're a newbie why would you buy a raw Piece dollar? PCGS/NGC CAC ones are available on EBay, GC, and Heritage regularly.
The polite thing to do after receiving a final price that doesn't work for you is to thank them for their time and move on. Challenging them after being quoted will not earn you any goodwill in the future. If you can get one at a better price elsewhere, you are free to do so. The only time I'd ask for further clarification would be if the quoted price is way off (think order of magnitude) from what you expect or if it's possible he read the wrong line of the price guide.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
coin shows are mostly retail
ebay is mostly wholesale and not for everyone (sight unseen, occasional freak trading partner, shipping issues, ...)
if you can buy a certified cheaper on eBay, then do it
I explained it wrong. What I meant to say is that I confirmed with him that he had it marked correctly per his opinion. You know, that a mistake wasn't made.
You sound like you are knowledgeable on the pricing. The way I read your post, your back and forth had the dealer reduce the price from $275 to $220 (20%). I'm guessing the dealer disconnected from you because a deal could not be made, despite the dealer's substantial offered discount.
Who cares. I hear this all the time. What difference does it make what the coin was worth 6 months or 10 years ago? When I buy a coin, house, car, etc. all I care about is present value.
You're correct, that is good etiquette. I guess my only question is that if you are a price concious buyer which most of us are, how can a dealer expect to ever sell common or semi common coins over and above a clear market price?
Skier
I agree with what you are saying. It's very aggravating when a seller doesn't keep up with the market. But the reality is it happens "all the time" as you stated. And to answer your question of who cares. The person buried in their coin cares.
It was really only back and forth once (he didn't get mad and he even even got some other coins from a box out from behind him to show me) Also I only spent 5 mins in the parking lot browsing sold 1934's in ms63/64 on coin facts and eBay since you can't get reception inside the show. This informed me enough to feel like i knew the correct price for a negotiation, but who knows if I'm right.
The thing about not getting out from under a coin your buried in is that as a dealer I feel like if you don't sell, sometimes even at a loss, that you will just get stale inventory. Stale inventory is why I spent zero of the 2k I had in my pocket. And believe me I wanted to buy some coins. I was itching to buy some coins. Heck I spent 3 hours at a 50 table show that wasn't full with 3 of my favorite dealers missing.
Pride.
Some will sit on a buried coin and let their heirs deal with it rather than admit defeat.
_ I appreciated the discount but I could almost get a slabbed 64 for $200 on an eBay auction for that price and he said it was a 63 which should be less than $200. I asked him about the disconnect, he didn't say much. _
When I read that part, I knew it was not going to end well. For some people, your comments would be taken very poorly and insulting, so why waste time with you.
Correct on all points. Some dealers inventory never seems to change. You made the right call. Save your cash for a better opportunity.
You're right - probably didn't handle it as well as I should have but I was cranky and wanted to buy coins. I couldn't find anything at a reasonable price that was also quality. I'm willing to pay retail but not more than retail.
The price of the coin was $275. The dealer agreed to sell it for $220. That's a difference of $55. We are talking about being "buried" in a coin for $55? I don't think so. If you like it buy it. It's really hot here. My orange grove needs watering. Bye.
Yeah, sounds like you hurt the guy's feelings. Yeah, he was buried alright. I always wonder and kinda chuckle when collectors see what they feel is an overpriced coin and folks chime in they are buried in the coin.
Also I am easily amused when collectors feel they are being generous by saying. They were even prepared to step up and pay retail. Wow, they act like big dealers and feel it should be wholesale for collectors on most coins
.
Probably should have acted respectful and brought the guy a bottle of water, and a snack of some sort. Heh he might have been tired and stressed out.
Full disclosure, always have been just a low life collector. Have fun guys.
Why? Who knows. Maybe he felt it was exceptionally nice. Maybe it was a gorgeous toner. Maybe all of his inventory is overpriced. Maybe he hasn't really kept up on Peace dollar pricing.
There are several good and honorable dealers I enjoy as human beings that I'll never buy a coin from. Why? From experience I've learned everything in their cases is overpriced. That's just how they operate. No big deal. There are plenty of places to acquire coins like that.
Haven't read the responses yet, but the original post is why many simply won't assign "grades" to raw coins. Just prices.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I agree with this. The coin if it is raw is set at a price and you as the buyer can decide where you think it falls in the grading spectrum and then make your decision to pass or play.
It really doesn't matter what the dealer grades it. That isn't relevant. Only thing that matters is the price.
Maybe he doesn't care if he sells that or any other coin. He may spend his time at shows to get away from his wife.
A lot of assumptions in the OP.
1) The coin market ought to be perfectly efficient.
2) Grading should be 100% consistent.
3) All dealers will sell similarly graded material within a small price range.
If all of these were true, then the OP's question is perfectly reasonable. There are markets like that, but rare coins is not one of them.
Dealer prices coin at next grade level but who knows its raw, gives a decent sounding reduction of cost when asked, still several dollars over stated grade, buyer balks, buyer goes home alive, dealer still fishing.
Plenty of nice raw coins out there that will never sell. One good lesson is never pay graded money for raw coins. A 34 peace is one you can wait and find a nice raw one for decent money.
No transaction should vary from this simple formula.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
And I bet when you are buying, you regularly use 6+-month-old auctions when it behooves you.
I disagree. It's often appropriate to ask if the price can be lower, even if the quoted price is acceptable. And if the price is not acceptable, it's almost always more effective to counteroffer than to ask the dealer to reduce his asking price. As they say, money talks, BS walks.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You did nothing wrong. You avoided an overpriced coin. A win for you. There should be no "appreciation" for the discount. It's like going to an oriental rug "sale" where prices are jacked 2X to 3X to support giving you a 50% "discount." Your time is valuable at shows. No need to spend time at a table where coins are marked up 100%. That seller may not have even been a "dealer." Just having a table doesn't make it so. Not too many "good" dealers mark their coins at $275 and then drop to $220 when queried by a typical collector. That's a huge drop...and a red flag. Don't worry about the risk of dealer aggravation. You ending up buying a grossly over-priced coin is a far more egregious outcome....which was probably the case even at $200-$220. Price guide might be $200....but actual market transactions are occurring way under those levels.
Normally when I see a common raw coin marked 30-50% above slabbed market....I just keep walking. No additional discussion is needed. That's probably a dealer to avoid in the future unless the coin had marvelous toning or a 98% striking. And yes, peace dollars in common grades are in the crapper like a lot of things. You can find slabbed MS63's on GC for $115-$160. You might be able to find a raw MS63 1934 for $75-$100 with a little bit of looking. Remember that retail price guides are generally quite inflated. And on common coins, "retail" is often much closer to wholesale levels.
Usually when I see coins that are initially priced way over market, I don't even bother ask. The high starting price and the "big discount" is a ploy to suck you in to over paying for the item.
Under grading is also another technique that some old time dealers used before certification came along. The catch phrase was "under grade, over price." The idea was to get you thinking that this dealer didn't know how to grade, you might "pick them off" by scooping up and under graded coin. The trouble was the price more than made up for that.
You opened negotiations with a mild insult (Do you really think that is a 63 or are you just too stupid to write your grade down correctly?) and negotiations went downhill from there.
This is a case of 'dealer logic' contrasting with 'collector logic'...What a collector may deem logical is not always the same as what a dealer considers logical. Different goals, different viewpoints. Judging from your statements, it would also seem logical that the dealer may well have been more experienced than you. If you are, as you stated, a novice with the product, then perhaps your logic was more in question. Cheers, RickO
I didn't say originally but his wife was helping him run his tables.
Consider adding Great Collections Auction Archives to your searches. Lots of activity by collectors and dealer alike. The photos are excellent too...unlike Ebay and other auction archives.
http://www.greatcollections.com/search.php?mode=product&series=56&ended=1&listing_type=4&sold=1&searchid=0&q=1934+MS63&series=56&sort=01
True. I guess I wasn't thinking about it from a rare coins marketplace perspective. I was treating this as a common coin transaction, maybe I was wrong in that.
Thanks for the reassurance and thanks for defending me a bit. I was starting to feel like a jerk there. I still don't understand it from dealer perspective I mean this guy and his wife traveled 4 hours and they have a brick and mortar store. So they must have clientele that overpays on stuff to pay the rent.
What is the "price" of any coin. If a coin should always be priced at the price "guide", then prices should never go up or down for any particular coin.
I am always amazed by the number of people that get upset over what someone prices their goods (not just coins). If you don't like the price, then move on. No need to insult anyone or insinuate anything.
Joe.
here's me strategy --- I look at a coin, assess the grade and then match that with a price. next, I ask the seller what their best price is, and if it fits my assessment I purchase the coin. haggling is certainly OK but if I am unknown to the dealer and he is unknown to me the probability of misunderstanding is high. as the first reply states, you may have aggravated the dealer by questioning his grading and pricing.
here is something that has always puzzled me --- if a coin is "sheet priced" at $200 in MS63 and $275 in MS64 everyone thinks that an MS63 should be $200 and no higher. I always figure that the sheet price is sort of what an average coin in a specific grade should cost and pricing can be + or - depending on quality.
It does matter when the dealer is selling to a new collector who can't often tell a 63 from a 64. Without a slab to fall back on, many dealers can't either.
The OP needs to find the 2-3 dealers out of 10 who will help enhance their financial success in buying coins (or at least minimize the losses). The other 7-8 dealers are out for themselves. If you look hard enough and ask around, you can find those exceptions who will do you good. Had I run into your dealer asking $275 for a $125 coin....I don't think I'd been as kind. Don't worry about possibly offending a few dealers....most have thick skin. That guy is either an idiot for pricing the coin like that, or was bringing out 10 yr old stock and forget to update pricing before the show. They're the ones that should feel embarrassed, not you. In my mind, they brought it on themselves. If you're a skilled show dealer....price your inventory as such to show your skills....not your ignorance.
My broader point was many sellers at local shows are hobbyists first with no real incentive to move a particular piece of inventory. Shortly after common GSA CC Morgans doubled from $100 to $200 each a dozen years ago, I looked at a selection at a decent sized regional show. The seller wanted $300 per piece telling me that the market was not there yet but would be soon.
I walked and he is still waiting for his $300.
I have a good friend that has his own coin store and he told me to never buy anything from a dealer. He laughed but I knew what he was talking about.
All of my best rips have been from coin dealers. I don't know what I'd do without them. And I've certainly sold stuff way to cheap myself. It still comes down to knowledge and/or grading. I've never tried to rip off a collector who doesn't know what they have. It's my job (and hopefully most everyone else) to ensure they don't get ripped. In fact, in those cases, I usually offer more than I would normally just to turn it for a tiny profit and help them out (85-95% of full market value...and still don't get the deals). They usually feel more comfortable taking their stuff down to the local B&M and getting 30-50c of the dollar.