That being said, I make no claim to numismatic expertise or genius and have great amounts of respect for your years of experience and knowledge, just not the unnecessary venom and vitriol.
I do not know how that was done although it appears the surfaces were likely contaminated with a mixture clashing like oil and water.
Peace, my friend.
Thanks for your guess. This one has me stumped but I am certain it is AT. I'm waiting to hear from so folks who have experimented with AT.
Now, as soon as you go back and remove the hundreds of "disagreements" to my posts WHERE YOU DID NOT EVEN HAVE THE "CLASS or KNOWLEDGE" to post a response/reason in order to further the numismatic debate for all members, I will consider you one of the typical "numismatic genius's" that infest the online forums.
Furthermore, I reported your actions. You are lucky that the moderator thinks your actions were as humorous and childish as I do.
Know what, forget about removing the disagreements you posted without comment. You have better things to do and as I wrote before, I bet no one on CU will ever have almost 500 disagreements!
Just tried the Colonel's bleach experiment. Wow. I never would believe it. I do not recommend doing this to your BU coins.
Took a 1921 BU Morgan (damaged edge & rims) and dipped it. Neutralized it, Dried it.
Put bleach in a bowl (full commercial strength), dipped it (possibly too long) at least one second.
Rinsed in tap water. Coin became light golden brown with hints of iridescent blue in places near the rim.
Coin continued to darken!
Dumped it in baking soda solution. Then rinsed in running tap water. Dried. Acetone rinse.
It appears the reaction is halted.
I think this coin would fool a lot of collectors and the marks on the coin are toned over. I would not be able to say for even 90% certainty if this was AT or NT.
However, while not the gray I expected, the luster pops through the gold color. Under the scope, I see none of the known characteristics of NT; yet I can also repeat that until I did this experiment, I probably would have guessed it was more than likely NT because I've seen similar color on coins! Just looked again and under the scope I see a demarcation line where the flow is different causing one side to be darker...so AT for sure as not the gradual colore change.
Thank you Colonel! This is exactly what I hoped this thread would lead to. I'll post photos but unable to show the entire coin SO DON'T ASK.
Images of AT experiment using bleach showing "blue" shade (too bad it is not concentric but anyone can figure how to do that.
Note the bold difference of color shade through the letters. This is a characteristic frequently seen with AT.
I put my wood burning tool on the top of a Nickel thinking it would heat the glue underneath so I could move it and get a better seal. I must of had it on way longer then normal as it turned deep blue & purple. I was trying my hand at Hobo coins. Still trying to get those correct but love to play
All I know is that dipping coins causes them to swell. See photos for details.
Real funny. Four stars and 37,000 posts. Shame on you. What you have possibly done besides show two different coins and **get a good laugh from the regulars around here **is cause some less informed folks to believe coins swell when they are dipped.
My OP was sincere. Two members took it that way and left some tips. Others replied and decided not to "educate" coin doctors. Do you have anything of real use to add about AT. I'll bet you have heard of some experiments I can try.
Hey, do you two numismatic genius's have any comments on the above image?
Replace the apostrophe with the letter e. Also suggest adding "either of" between do and you.
If I told you I did the spelling on porpoise would you belive me? I also laid a "trap" for both of them in a post but lucky for them they did not "bite!"
Real funny. Four stars and 37,000 posts. Shame on you. What you have possibly done besides show two different coins and **get a good laugh from the regulars around here **is cause some less informed folks to believe coins swell when they are dipped.
My OP was sincere. Two members took it that way and left some tips. Others replied and decided not to "educate" coin doctors. Do you have anything of real use to add about AT ? I'll bet you have heard of some experiments I can try.
What I did was posted two coins side by side which came into the shop in the past week or so. One was ugly white and lustrous.(already been cleaned/dipped). The other : ugly dark with subdued luster. Both have decent strikes and neither carries much value over the other. I paid the same price for both of them.
I would have started my own thread about the ills of chemistry/ coins, had I known you would take umbrage at my previous post. My apologies. AT/NT/OT.... GIL-T
@Kkathyl said:
I put my wood burning tool on the top of a Nickel thinking it would heat the glue underneath so I could move it and get a better seal. I must of had it on way longer then normal as it turned deep blue & purple. I was trying my hand at Hobo coins. Still trying to get those correct but love to play
I have heard that heat is often a component of AT. All I know is that heat will often/always (?) speed up a chemical reaction.
Real funny. Four stars and 37,000 posts. Shame on you. What you have possibly done besides show two different coins and **get a good laugh from the regulars around here **is cause some less informed folks to believe coins swell when they are dipped.
My OP was sincere. Two members took it that way and left some tips. Others replied and decided not to "educate" coin doctors. Do you have anything of real use to add about AT ? I'll bet you have heard of some experiments I can try.
What I did was posted two coins side by side which came into the shop in the past week or so. One was ugly white and lustrous.(already been cleaned/dipped). The other : ugly dark with subdued luster. Both have decent strikes and neither carries much value over the other. I paid the same price for both of them.
I would have started my own thread about the ills of chemistry/ coins, had I known you would take umbrage at my previous post. My apologies. AT/NT/OT.... GIL-T
Actually, I thought your post was very funny. This was even better: "AT/NT/OT...GIL-T."
I'm just frustrated that my wish to learn more about AT has fallen on deaf ears! Furthermore, If you would have shown the images associated with your comments here rather than posting that they "swelled-up" I think it would have been very helpful to all of us "rookies." I guess I need to chill and get my answers from real experts such as the Colonel.
Yikes! The dollar I "bleached" and then thought I stopped the reaction "appears" to be getting a little darker. I'm not going to touch it until tomorrow.
@Insider2 I use ketchup for pennies or anything copper based. If you take yogart and salt or baking soda it will clean a coin off but you should not let it sit longer than say 15 minutes or so. I only do this to a coin that is going to be used in artwork and when selling anything you must let the person know that you cleaned it and how. That is the golden rule about collecting. If you tell the truth you will always fair better. @RickO1@ricko@Baley@Rollerman@PRECIOUSMENTAL
@Kkathyl said: @Insider2 I use ketchup for pennies or anything copper based. If you take yogart and salt or baking soda it will clean a coin off but you should not let it sit longer than say 15 minutes or so. I only do this to a coin that is going to be used in artwork and when selling anything you must let the person know that you cleaned it and how. That is the golden rule about collecting. If you tell the truth you will always fair better. @RickO1@ricko@Baley@Rollerman@PRECIOUSMENTAL
Thanks. Your method may be great for artwork but it is **not recommended for coin collectors **as it destroys both the value and collectability of the piece. I'll check out your "art" tonight.
@Insider2 I don't use it on coins I sell. I am trying to make HOBO coins. I would NEVER clean a coin for selling. the link is for a rare coin I purchased a panda that is sold out at mint selling currently 50% under what it should go for but I am new at ebay so that's my deal.. I appreciate if you look at the artwork I have on web though too. those proceeds go to put children of offenders to summer camp. save one child at a time.
@Kkathyl said: @Insider2 I don't use it on coins I sell. I am trying to make HOBO coins. I would NEVER clean a coin for selling. the link is for a rare coin I purchased a panda that is sold out at mint selling currently 50% under what it should go for but I am new at ebay so that's my deal.. I appreciate if you look at the artwork I have on web though too. those proceeds go to put children of offenders to summer camp. save one child at a time.
thanks,
Are you a member of the HOBO carvers club. They set up at several shows in FL and I guess around the country also. I am working on one using just a knife and a nail...LOL.
FYI, that 88 Morgan for sale appears to be heavily polished from those pictures.
@Kkathyl said: @Insider2 I don't use it on coins I sell. I am trying to make HOBO coins. I would NEVER clean a coin for selling. the link is for a rare coin I purchased a panda that is sold out at mint selling currently 50% under what it should go for but I am new at ebay so that's my deal.. I appreciate if you look at the artwork I have on web though too. those proceeds go to put children of offenders to summer camp. save one child at a time.
@BruceS said:
FYI, that 88 Morgan for sale appears to be heavily polished from those pictures.
@Kkathyl said: @Insider2 I don't use it on coins I sell. I am trying to make HOBO coins. I would NEVER clean a coin for selling. the link is for a rare coin I purchased a panda that is sold out at mint selling currently 50% under what it should go for but I am new at ebay so that's my deal.. I appreciate if you look at the artwork I have on web though too. those proceeds go to put children of offenders to summer camp. save one child at a time.
thanks,
I was given some good advice. Until I learn how to grade as well as a successful professional numismatist, I should only purchase coins graded by one of the four major services.
I broke that advice today and purchased an MS-64 1879-S dollar in a beautiful Compugrade slab graded MS-62.7.
thanks Bruce I work in the business and would say that advice is good. I have the luxury of having items reviewed and am very greatful for that. I also keep all records of coins purchased and registered with PCGS. if you look at picture 6 you will see that this coin particular has toning and the typical stages of it. it is in a holder so sometimes the light flashes. I don't have professional photo but did get this coin from another on this forum whom I trust.
Went lookin for the polished 88 Morgan on your link and a Panda came up. What is the double rim inside the actual rim? I never saw that on a panda before? Don't you think you would get higher bids if you allowed the coin to be returned? I should never bid on a coin when I could not return it "because it is gold."
Went lookin for the polished 88 Morgan on your link and a Panda came up. What is the double rim inside the actual rim? I never saw that on a panda before? Don't you think you would get higher bids if you allowed the coin to be returned? I should never bid on a coin when I could not return it "because it is gold."
@BruceS said: "After you click the link, chose "see other items" in the box that shows her feedback. It may be as she says the reflection on the Mylar?"
Thanks, you are correct, the coin is 100% very heavily polished. Note the "halo effect" and the rounded relief plus bad color. Read between the lines for my opinion of the gold Panda - it may be just damaged from jewelry.
IMO, anyone buying raw coins on Ebay deserves what they get!
This is why people leave this forum. Panda bought by reputable company and the 88 was reviewed by grader from top grading company said it is Good. I will have it sent for grade instead of selling. The person who gave green light worked 20 years grading Morgan's looked under the scope . I must be really bad taking pictures or something. Anyway. My collection my money. No return on gold is for pricing chasers & scammers. Today at work we received 5 nickels in package. No doubt a chargeback on gold to follow. All they need is track and weight to scam. Rant over
@Kkathyl said:
This is why people leave this forum.
What? You disagree that 4 of your morgans appear to be polished?
I was just giving you a heads up, as you were the one to link your auctions and talked about how you would never sell cleaned coins. I was polite and respectable in my response.
Hey, do you two numismatic genius's have any comments on the above image?
Replace the apostrophe with the letter e. Also suggest adding "either of" between do and you.
If I told you I did the spelling on porpoise would you belive me? I also laid a "trap" for both of them in a post but lucky for them they did not.__
Lucky? Ppppppplease...It doesn't take a genius to recognize a troll when he sees it. I'll pass - thanks.
@Kkathyl said:
This is why people leave this forum. Panda bought by reputable company and the 88 was reviewed by grader from top grading company said it is Good. I will have it sent for grade instead of selling. The person who gave green light worked 20 years grading Morgan's looked under the scope . I must be really bad taking pictures or something. Anyway. My collection my money. No return on gold is for pricing chasers & scammers. Today at work we received 5 nickels in package. No doubt a chargeback on gold to follow. All they need is track and weight to scam. Rant over
NUTS! There are some things that are obvious on coins that are almost impossible to hide in an image. You posted a link. I agreed with what another member saw. I even posted what to look for on many harshly buffed coins like the '88.
People reading this thread can make up their own mind. I think if I were you I should stick around and possibly learn some new things from others here who freely share their opinions.
Here are more of my unsolicited opinions: The person who said that dollar was OK was probably fired from whatever fly-by-night place he claimed to work for. Did he sell you the coin? Additionally, that Panda is damaged. I hope the "reputable" company was as honest to you claim to be to your customers. That's why they informed you it was badly damaged and sold it to you at a big discount, right? Do you see the two large gouges on it? The dark circle inside the rim is probably damage also.
Good Luck with your Ebay sales, the folks there are ripe for the pickings.
@CharlotteDude wrote: "Lucky? Ppppppplease...It doesn't take a genius to recognize a troll when he sees it. I'll pass - thanks."
Roll eyes. Well,we can agree on two things then. We each can recognize a troll and please do pass on. Oh, and don't forget to push the "disagree" button w/o adding anything useful to this thread.
Every single one of them have been polished to a mirror finish with nary a bag mark or hit showing for the most part..
Just for kicks, I carried in a few slabbed Morgans and P$ graded from 63-66.
He looked at them and asked why these had been graded since they were horrible, had marks and weren't nearly as shiny as his that he was asking silly crazy money for! Despite my having bought several out of his case, raw and for real cash that nobody wanted, he was_ incensed _when I priced him MS graded SD's for 40 bucks I knew he wouldn't buy.
Same place that has this one. He seemed to get quite perturbed when I told him all his SD's had been damaged useful only for melt or jewelry.
Amazingly enough, that 1800 dollar hasn't been "picked" by anyone.
He does have a CC Morgan that is heavily worn but, I'm not sure about it since it smells like brass and the scratches reflect brassy color. I forgot to weigh it this last visit and didn't even bring my scales.
He is typical of the many uninformed people who sell coins. BTW, the 1800 dollar is a poorly made counterfeit.
@Insider2 said:
Yikes! The dollar I "bleached" and then thought I stopped the reaction "appears" to be getting a little darker. I'm not going to touch it until tomorrow.
You did not follow his procedure even remotely. Go back and read what he said and what you did.
@Wabbit2313 said: "You did not follow his procedure even remotely. Go back and read what he said and what you did. "
Actually, I did #1. It is still getting slightly darker. Next time I shall neutralize it in the Ultrasonic.
1) Immerse a coin in bleach for two heartbeats. Take it out and watch it get progressively more richly purple while in-hand. Could go on for another 30 seconds.
I did not do #2 as I don't want to learn how to make a coin GRAY. I already know how to do that. My wish is to learn more about artificial toning and NOT dip etched surfaces.
2) Immerse a coin in bleach for two heartbeats, Take it out and immerse it immediately in Jewel-Luster for a full minute. Result: light battle-ship GRAY with some superficial suggestion of bright metal surfaces and virtually no apparent hairlines.
"Don't get me started again over failure to post B&A's, you know how I get."
and
"I SAID I WANTED BEFORE and after and you know I wanted them in one post together."
LOL. You remind me of a poster on CT who always asks to see the "entire coin" or "the other side of the coin" when it has no bearing on the question in the thread. Fortunately, this is a little different or I should be pulling out my hair rather than rolling on the ground!
So, for my experiment, I posted this already : "1. Took a 1921 BU Morgan (damaged edge & rims) and dipped it." If you go on the Internet, and "Google" something like "BU 1921 Morgan dollar" that should satisfy your request about what a "before" image should look like.
@Insider2 said: @Wabbit2313 said: "You did not follow his procedure even remotely. Go back and read what he said and what you did. "
Actually, I did #1. It is still getting slightly darker. Next time I shall neutralize it in the Ultrasonic.
1) Immerse a coin in bleach for two heartbeats. Take it out and watch it get progressively more richly purple while in-hand. Could go on for another 30 seconds.
I did not do #2 as I don't want to learn how to make a coin GRAY. I already know how to do that. My wish is to learn more about artificial toning and NOT dip etched surfaces.
2) Immerse a coin in bleach for two heartbeats, Take it out and immerse it immediately in Jewel-Luster for a full minute. Result: light battle-ship GRAY with some superficial suggestion of bright metal surfaces and virtually no apparent hairlines.
Thanks.
1 did not involve dipping the coin. #2 removing all hairlines? That I would like to see.
@Insider2 said: @Wabbit2313 said: "You did not follow his procedure even remotely. Go back and read what he said and what you did. "
Actually, I did #1. It is still getting slightly darker. Next time I shall neutralize it in the Ultrasonic.
1) Immerse a coin in bleach for two heartbeats. Take it out and watch it get progressively more richly purple while in-hand. Could go on for another 30 seconds.
I did not do #2 as I don't want to learn how to make a coin GRAY. I already know how to do that. My wish is to learn more about artificial toning and NOT dip etched surfaces.
2) Immerse a coin in bleach for two heartbeats, Take it out and immerse it immediately in Jewel-Luster for a full minute. Result: light battle-ship GRAY with some superficial suggestion of bright metal surfaces and virtually no apparent hairlines.
Thanks.
1 did not involve dipping the coin. #2 removing all hairlines? That I would like to see.
Please remember that I am the ignorant poster here. I apologize for not being a better communicator. If someone with your numismatic credentials cannot understand my answer, it must have been very ambiguous to everyone! Rather than shout out nonsense, in order for you to instruct me in the spirit of numismatic education and camaraderie; let's see if I can make this post a little clearer.
The instruction given by Rick (#1) was to quickly dip the silver coin into bleach to see the effects. I did that; however, in order to make sure that the BU coin was not contaminated by anything that may change the experiment, I dipped the coin in in a tarnish remover first (MY STEP ONE AS POSTED) and then neutralized and dried it. MY STEP TWO (the beginning of the actual experiment) was the dip into the bleach.
Hairlines? I'll apologize again for being confused by your post as I never mentioned hairlines and Rick posted that the coin had virtually no hairlines. Surely a numismatic expert as you must know that if you dip a coin properly or start with a coin with no hairlines, THERE WILL BE NO HAIRLINES on the coin.
IMO, the only reason Rick may have brought "hairlines" into the thread is because they tend to be less noticeable when a coin becomes toned or etched by dip - but obviously, you already know all of that too.
Thanks for the chance to explore your numismatic knowledge further!
took @ricko advice and it certainly helps to weed out the doctors coins. Only chemistry I have used is creating the F15 canopy to keep military safe, and the subtle powder mix for speed at the ammo company I am part owner on. after that I let chemistry up to the experts. if it does not fly, burn, or react, I do not partake.
@Wabbit2313 said:
I didn't shout out anything, stupid forum software.
I don't have the time to go disagree with every single post but with Smart A** answers, I can see why others have.
Again, absolutely nothing of value from you! Your disagreement was the result of not understanding my post. I already apologized for being stupid and not "keeping it simple." Something military officers are told to do.
This particular post of yours is very disappointing. Now, I see how it works around here. Long-time, multi-star, successful numismatic "Ex-Perts" (word with two roots), known by all the members of the real "Insiders Club" here takes a "fly-by," "pot-shot" at a post without any comprehension of what was posted. Then, calls the poster a name for pointing out (in a very caustic way) that the "Ex-Pert" has no clue what he was writing. Perhaps the "so-called" software "glitch" was some kind of warning...LOL.
What I wish to know is:
1. Do you have anything to write about AT or NT in this thread?
2. Now, do you understand that I actually did follow the Colonel's instructions?
3. Will you tell me how to "roar" with such big letters?
@Zoins said: "Given that the PNG, ANA and others don't really do anything to stop AT, what's wrong with teaching how to make it? The ANA has doctors teach their seminars, so why not teach their doctoring expertise?
It might be better to not teach it, but if it is going to be condoned by leading numismatic organizations, why not go all the way? Alternately, what can be done to get the PNG, ANA and others to take more action against doctoring?
What would you suggest the ANA or PNG do to stop coin doctors? The only weapon they have is expulsion and they better be careful of a legal action.
The simplest thing the ANA could do is to not hire them but it seems even that may be too much.
A big issue in the hobby seems to be tacit approval of doctors and looking the other way. For some reason, some get a pass while others like EDM are explicitly discussed. If the general consensus is to protect doctors and doctoring, why not just be clear that doctoring is an accepted part of the hobby?
@Zoins said: "Given that the PNG, ANA and others don't really do anything to stop AT, what's wrong with teaching how to make it? The ANA has doctors teach their seminars, so why not teach their doctoring expertise?
It might be better to not teach it, but if it is going to be condoned by leading numismatic organizations, why not go all the way? Alternately, what can be done to get the PNG, ANA and others to take more action against doctoring?
What would you suggest the ANA or PNG do to stop coin doctors? The only weapon they have is expulsion and they better be careful of a legal action.
The simplest thing the ANA could do is to not hire them but it seems even that may be too much.
A big issue in the hobby seems to be tacit approval of doctors and looking the other way. For some reason, some get a pass while others like EDM are explicitly discussed. If the general consensus is to protect doctors and doctoring, why not just be clear that doctoring is an accepted part of the hobby?
Sorry, I am missing a lot due to not having any knowledge of dealers. I think you wrote that the ANA hires people who doctor coins. Are they still doing it? Sometimes crooks are hired by agencies to help catch other crooks.
Also you say that some folks who alter coins are over-looked (wink) while others (is EDM a nationally known "doctor") are called out. If I understood your post, it is sort of like MD's, cops, etc. I guess what might help is (with proof) if the folks who know names start posting them w/o initials. Perhaps, letters to the numismatic publications. It has to start somewhere with one person - how about you?
@Zoins said: "Given that the PNG, ANA and others don't really do anything to stop AT, what's wrong with teaching how to make it? The ANA has doctors teach their seminars, so why not teach their doctoring expertise?
It might be better to not teach it, but if it is going to be condoned by leading numismatic organizations, why not go all the way? Alternately, what can be done to get the PNG, ANA and others to take more action against doctoring?
What would you suggest the ANA or PNG do to stop coin doctors? The only weapon they have is expulsion and they better be careful of a legal action.
The simplest thing the ANA could do is to not hire them but it seems even that may be too much.
A big issue in the hobby seems to be tacit approval of doctors and looking the other way. For some reason, some get a pass while others like EDM are explicitly discussed. If the general consensus is to protect doctors and doctoring, why not just be clear that doctoring is an accepted part of the hobby?
Sorry, I am missing a lot due to not having any knowledge of dealers. I think you wrote that the ANA hires people who doctor coins. Are they still doing it? Sometimes crooks are hired by agencies to help catch other crooks.
It would be good to check. Let's see who is the next ANA President and if anti-doctoring is on the platform.
Also you say that some folks who alter coins are over-looked (wink) while others (is EDM a nationally known "doctor") are called out. If I understood your post, it is sort of like MD's, cops, etc. I guess what might help is (with proof) if the folks who know names start posting them w/o initials. Perhaps, letters to the numismatic publications. It has to start somewhere with one person - how about you?
Names have already been posted here and there, but it never lasts long. It's also not about individuals posting, it's about the organizations having a will, which they don't seem to have.
What I find disgusting are how many blatantly obvious AT ASE's are on the market in straight grade slabs. They're all over the place. Anyone who wants to see some crazy ones should go in Instagram and check out @jackmeritusa . He's got some real nice ones, but some that I would call AT all day in straight graded holders. I have noticed NGC has a better eye for AT ASE's, and that's about the only thing that they do halfway decent,,,lol.
I've heard/seen toning take place with many methods. Brown Taco Bell napkin in a drawer for years...sulphur powder in distilled water and have an electric current passed on it, the egg method, etc, etc.
Being a toned coin dealer and aficionado for years, I've gotten pretty good with spotting AT right off the bat, but sometimes, yes, it's very tricky. In those tricky circumstances, it's most likely MA.
AFAIK, except for some really smart folks, making AT that looks natural is much, much harder than most of us (including me) think,
Thanks for your informative post. I'm going to try the sulfur and electricity.
@Insider2 said:
AFAIK, except for some really smart folks, making AT that looks natural is much, much harder than most of us (including me) think,
Thanks for your informative post. I'm going to try the sulfur and electricity.
There's a couple YouTube videos that do it with bars. It happens instantly. I would imagine just type in artificial toning in the search bar and scroll through for a video on it. You use a car Battery or something with enough voltage.
Comments
I forgot to try the bleach trick - will do today.
Thanks for your guess. This one has me stumped but I am certain it is AT. I'm waiting to hear from so folks who have experimented with AT.
Now, as soon as you go back and remove the hundreds of "disagreements" to my posts WHERE YOU DID NOT EVEN HAVE THE "CLASS or KNOWLEDGE" to post a response/reason in order to further the numismatic debate for all members, I will consider you one of the typical "numismatic genius's" that infest the online forums.
Furthermore, I reported your actions. You are lucky that the moderator thinks your actions were as humorous and childish as I do.
Know what, forget about removing the disagreements you posted without comment. You have better things to do and as I wrote before, I bet no one on CU will ever have almost 500 disagreements!
PEACE
Just tried the Colonel's bleach experiment. Wow. I never would believe it. I do not recommend doing this to your BU coins.
I think this coin would fool a lot of collectors and the marks on the coin are toned over. I would not be able to say for even 90% certainty if this was AT or NT.
However, while not the gray I expected, the luster pops through the gold color. Under the scope, I see none of the known characteristics of NT; yet I can also repeat that until I did this experiment, I probably would have guessed it was more than likely NT because I've seen similar color on coins! Just looked again and under the scope I see a demarcation line where the flow is different causing one side to be darker...so AT for sure as not the gradual colore change.
Thank you Colonel! This is exactly what I hoped this thread would lead to. I'll post photos but unable to show the entire coin SO DON'T ASK.
I wish I had your computer skills. It is going to take me at least 15 min to remember how to post a phot here - I've only done it twice.
Images of AT experiment using bleach showing "blue" shade (too bad it is not concentric but anyone can figure how to do that.
Note the bold difference of color shade through the letters. This is a characteristic frequently seen with AT.
All I know is that dipping coins causes them to swell. See photos for details.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I put my wood burning tool on the top of a Nickel thinking it would heat the glue underneath so I could move it and get a better seal. I must of had it on way longer then normal as it turned deep blue & purple. I was trying my hand at Hobo coins. Still trying to get those correct but love to play
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Real funny. Four stars and 37,000 posts. Shame on you. What you have possibly done besides show two different coins and **get a good laugh from the regulars around here **is cause some less informed folks to believe coins swell when they are dipped.
My OP was sincere. Two members took it that way and left some tips. Others replied and decided not to "educate" coin doctors. Do you have anything of real use to add about AT. I'll bet you have heard of some experiments I can try.
Replace the apostrophe with the letter e. Also suggest adding "either of" between do and you.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
If I told you I did the spelling on porpoise would you belive me? I also laid a "trap" for both of them in a post but lucky for them they did not "bite!"
What I did was posted two coins side by side which came into the shop in the past week or so. One was ugly white and lustrous.(already been cleaned/dipped). The other : ugly dark with subdued luster. Both have decent strikes and neither carries much value over the other. I paid the same price for both of them.
I would have started my own thread about the ills of chemistry/ coins, had I known you would take umbrage at my previous post. My apologies. AT/NT/OT.... GIL-T
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I have heard that heat is often a component of AT. All I know is that heat will often/always (?) speed up a chemical reaction.
Actually, I thought your post was very funny. This was even better: "AT/NT/OT...GIL-T."
I'm just frustrated that my wish to learn more about AT has fallen on deaf ears! Furthermore, If you would have shown the images associated with your comments here rather than posting that they "swelled-up" I think it would have been very helpful to all of us "rookies." I guess I need to chill and get my answers from real experts such as the Colonel.
Yikes! The dollar I "bleached" and then thought I stopped the reaction "appears" to be getting a little darker. I'm not going to touch it until tomorrow.
@Insider2 I use ketchup for pennies or anything copper based. If you take yogart and salt or baking soda it will clean a coin off but you should not let it sit longer than say 15 minutes or so. I only do this to a coin that is going to be used in artwork and when selling anything you must let the person know that you cleaned it and how. That is the golden rule about collecting. If you tell the truth you will always fair better. @RickO1 @ricko @Baley @Rollerman @PRECIOUSMENTAL
check me out on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/112427329346
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Bronze Associate member
Thanks. Your method may be great for artwork but it is **not recommended for coin collectors **as it destroys both the value and collectability of the piece. I'll check out your "art" tonight.
@Insider2 I don't use it on coins I sell. I am trying to make HOBO coins. I would NEVER clean a coin for selling. the link is for a rare coin I purchased a panda that is sold out at mint selling currently 50% under what it should go for but I am new at ebay so that's my deal.. I appreciate if you look at the artwork I have on web though too. those proceeds go to put children of offenders to summer camp. save one child at a time.
thanks,
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Bronze Associate member
Are you a member of the HOBO carvers club. They set up at several shows in FL and I guess around the country also. I am working on one using just a knife and a nail...LOL.
FYI, that 88 Morgan for sale appears to be heavily polished from those pictures.
eBay ID-bruceshort978
Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
I was given some good advice. Until I learn how to grade as well as a successful professional numismatist, I should only purchase coins graded by one of the four major services.
I broke that advice today and purchased an MS-64 1879-S dollar in a beautiful Compugrade slab graded MS-62.7.
thanks Bruce I work in the business and would say that advice is good. I have the luxury of having items reviewed and am very greatful for that. I also keep all records of coins purchased and registered with PCGS. if you look at picture 6 you will see that this coin particular has toning and the typical stages of it. it is in a holder so sometimes the light flashes. I don't have professional photo but did get this coin from another on this forum whom I trust.
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@Kkathyl
Went lookin for the polished 88 Morgan on your link and a Panda came up. What is the double rim inside the actual rim? I never saw that on a panda before? Don't you think you would get higher bids if you allowed the coin to be returned? I should never bid on a coin when I could not return it "because it is gold."
after you click the link, chose "see other items" in the box that shows her feedback. It may be as she says the reflection on the Mylar?
eBay ID-bruceshort978
Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
@BruceS said: "After you click the link, chose "see other items" in the box that shows her feedback. It may be as she says the reflection on the Mylar?"
Thanks, you are correct, the coin is 100% very heavily polished. Note the "halo effect" and the rounded relief plus bad color. Read between the lines for my opinion of the gold Panda - it may be just damaged from jewelry.
IMO, anyone buying raw coins on Ebay deserves what they get!
This is why people leave this forum. Panda bought by reputable company and the 88 was reviewed by grader from top grading company said it is Good. I will have it sent for grade instead of selling. The person who gave green light worked 20 years grading Morgan's looked under the scope . I must be really bad taking pictures or something. Anyway. My collection my money. No return on gold is for pricing chasers & scammers. Today at work we received 5 nickels in package. No doubt a chargeback on gold to follow. All they need is track and weight to scam. Rant over
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I was just giving you a heads up, as you were the one to link your auctions and talked about how you would never sell cleaned coins. I was polite and respectable in my response.
eBay ID-bruceshort978
Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
_@Baley said:
« hide previous quotes
@Insider2 said:
@CharlotteDude, @CoinsAndMoreCoins
Hey, do you two numismatic genius's have any comments on the above image?
Replace the apostrophe with the letter e. Also suggest adding "either of" between do and you.
If I told you I did the spelling on porpoise would you belive me? I also laid a "trap" for both of them in a post but lucky for them they did not.__
Lucky? Ppppppplease...It doesn't take a genius to recognize a troll when he sees it. I'll pass - thanks.
NUTS! There are some things that are obvious on coins that are almost impossible to hide in an image. You posted a link. I agreed with what another member saw. I even posted what to look for on many harshly buffed coins like the '88.
People reading this thread can make up their own mind. I think if I were you I should stick around and possibly learn some new things from others here who freely share their opinions.
Here are more of my unsolicited opinions: The person who said that dollar was OK was probably fired from whatever fly-by-night place he claimed to work for. Did he sell you the coin? Additionally, that Panda is damaged. I hope the "reputable" company was as honest to you claim to be to your customers. That's why they informed you it was badly damaged and sold it to you at a big discount, right? Do you see the two large gouges on it? The dark circle inside the rim is probably damage also.
Good Luck with your Ebay sales, the folks there are ripe for the pickings.
@CharlotteDude wrote: "Lucky? Ppppppplease...It doesn't take a genius to recognize a troll when he sees it. I'll pass - thanks."
Roll eyes. Well,we can agree on two things then. We each can recognize a troll and please do pass on. Oh, and don't forget to push the "disagree" button w/o adding anything useful to this thread.
He is typical of the many uninformed people who sell coins. BTW, the 1800 dollar is a poorly made counterfeit.
You did not follow his procedure even remotely. Go back and read what he said and what you did.
@Wabbit2313 said: "You did not follow his procedure even remotely. Go back and read what he said and what you did.
"
Actually, I did #1. It is still getting slightly darker. Next time I shall neutralize it in the Ultrasonic.
1) Immerse a coin in bleach for two heartbeats. Take it out and watch it get progressively more richly purple while in-hand. Could go on for another 30 seconds.
I did not do #2 as I don't want to learn how to make a coin GRAY. I already know how to do that. My wish is to learn more about artificial toning and NOT dip etched surfaces.
2) Immerse a coin in bleach for two heartbeats, Take it out and immerse it immediately in Jewel-Luster for a full minute. Result: light battle-ship GRAY with some superficial suggestion of bright metal surfaces and virtually no apparent hairlines.
Thanks.
The "After" is on this thread with one reason it is obviously AT.
@CoinsAndMoreCoins said:
"Where are the before and after pix?"
and
"Don't get me started again over failure to post B&A's, you know how I get."
and
"I SAID I WANTED BEFORE and after and you know I wanted them in one post together."
LOL. You remind me of a poster on CT who always asks to see the "entire coin" or "the other side of the coin" when it has no bearing on the question in the thread. Fortunately, this is a little different or I should be pulling out my hair rather than rolling on the ground!
So, for my experiment, I posted this already : "1. Took a 1921 BU Morgan (damaged edge & rims) and dipped it." If you go on the Internet, and "Google" something like "BU 1921 Morgan dollar" that should satisfy your request about what a "before" image should look like.
1 did not involve dipping the coin. #2 removing all hairlines? That I would like to see.
Please remember that I am the ignorant poster here. I apologize for not being a better communicator. If someone with your numismatic credentials cannot understand my answer, it must have been very ambiguous to everyone! Rather than shout out nonsense, in order for you to instruct me in the spirit of numismatic education and camaraderie; let's see if I can make this post a little clearer.
The instruction given by Rick (#1) was to quickly dip the silver coin into bleach to see the effects. I did that; however, in order to make sure that the BU coin was not contaminated by anything that may change the experiment, I dipped the coin in in a tarnish remover first (MY STEP ONE AS POSTED) and then neutralized and dried it. MY STEP TWO (the beginning of the actual experiment) was the dip into the bleach.
Hairlines? I'll apologize again for being confused by your post as I never mentioned hairlines and Rick posted that the coin had virtually no hairlines. Surely a numismatic expert as you must know that if you dip a coin properly or start with a coin with no hairlines, THERE WILL BE NO HAIRLINES on the coin.
IMO, the only reason Rick may have brought "hairlines" into the thread is because they tend to be less noticeable when a coin becomes toned or etched by dip - but obviously, you already know all of that too.
Thanks for the chance to explore your numismatic knowledge further!
I so miss the 'eating popcorn' icon......
Cheers, RickO
On another site we have colors and lots of faces. Much easier to entertain the folks in the balcony!
I didn't shout out anything, stupid forum software.
I don't have the time to go disagree with every single post but with Smart A** answers, I can see why others have.
That is disgustingly hilarious.....
Cheers, RickO
took @ricko advice and it certainly helps to weed out the doctors coins. Only chemistry I have used is creating the F15 canopy to keep military safe, and the subtle powder mix for speed at the ammo company I am part owner on. after that I let chemistry up to the experts. if it does not fly, burn, or react, I do not partake.
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Bronze Associate member
Again, absolutely nothing of value from you! Your disagreement was the result of not understanding my post. I already apologized for being stupid and not "keeping it simple." Something military officers are told to do.
This particular post of yours is very disappointing. Now, I see how it works around here. Long-time, multi-star, successful numismatic "Ex-Perts" (word with two roots), known by all the members of the real "Insiders Club" here takes a "fly-by," "pot-shot" at a post
without any comprehension of what was posted. Then, calls the poster a name for pointing out (in a very caustic 
way) that the "Ex-Pert" has no clue what he was writing. Perhaps the "so-called" software "glitch" was some kind of warning...LOL.
What I wish to know is:
actually did follow the Colonel's instructions?
1. Do you have anything to write about AT or NT in this thread?
2. Now, do you understand that I
3. Will you tell me how to "roar" with such big letters?
The simplest thing the ANA could do is to not hire them but it seems even that may be too much.
A big issue in the hobby seems to be tacit approval of doctors and looking the other way. For some reason, some get a pass while others like EDM are explicitly discussed. If the general consensus is to protect doctors and doctoring, why not just be clear that doctoring is an accepted part of the hobby?
Sorry, I am missing a lot due to not having any knowledge of dealers. I think you wrote that the ANA hires people who doctor coins. Are they still doing it? Sometimes crooks are hired by agencies to help catch other crooks.
Also you say that some folks who alter coins are over-looked (wink) while others (is EDM a nationally known "doctor") are called out. If I understood your post, it is sort of like MD's, cops, etc. I guess what might help is (with proof) if the folks who know names start posting them w/o initials. Perhaps, letters to the numismatic publications. It has to start somewhere with one person - how about you?
It would be good to check. Let's see who is the next ANA President and if anti-doctoring is on the platform.
Names have already been posted here and there, but it never lasts long. It's also not about individuals posting, it's about the organizations having a will, which they don't seem to have.
Would be neat to start a thread. Who are the coin doctors. Than I can PM them; and if they would talk, learn how to detect their work...LOL
What I find disgusting are how many blatantly obvious AT ASE's are on the market in straight grade slabs. They're all over the place. Anyone who wants to see some crazy ones should go in Instagram and check out @jackmeritusa . He's got some real nice ones, but some that I would call AT all day in straight graded holders. I have noticed NGC has a better eye for AT ASE's, and that's about the only thing that they do halfway decent,,,lol.
I've heard/seen toning take place with many methods. Brown Taco Bell napkin in a drawer for years...sulphur powder in distilled water and have an electric current passed on it, the egg method, etc, etc.
Being a toned coin dealer and aficionado for years, I've gotten pretty good with spotting AT right off the bat, but sometimes, yes, it's very tricky. In those tricky circumstances, it's most likely MA.
If this was mine, PCGS would call it AT... LOL
AFAIK, except for some really smart folks, making AT that looks natural is much, much harder than most of us (including me) think,
Thanks for your informative post. I'm going to try the sulfur and electricity.
There's a couple YouTube videos that do it with bars. It happens instantly. I would imagine just type in artificial toning in the search bar and scroll through for a video on it. You use a car Battery or something with enough voltage.