This deserves a response! If you will read my terms....you will see the restocking fee is waved if a return is started within 7 days after receipt. I'm not gonna allow vest pocket dealers to rent my coins to try and sell at my expense!
I have yet to have to charge a restocking fee after around a year of initiating this policy!
@OPA said:
Most respected dealers do not charge a 10% restocking fee for returned items.
@amwldcoin said:
I will make one last comment! As a seller you either do the right thing or the wrong thing!
The problem is who decides what the right or wrong thing is? Are you the sole arbiter? What if there is disagreement between the parties on the coin's authenticity? What if a year has passed since the purchase? What if the customer strongly disagrees with the grade? It's one thing to have different ethics or standards, but you don't need to rant against those that think differently.
I have to agree, the seller should refund the full amount, If without a shadow of a doubt the coin is not genuine. But given what we all know, it's his expert against a top TPG opinion. Do they get it wrong sometime, absolutely, but in this case we don't have enough info to say one way or the other. So In a case were there is some question about authenticity and no return policy use the TPG guarantee.
Man you guys are dragging me into this when I am ready to hit the hay! The right or wrong is if the buyer thinks the coin is counterfeit you should accept a return! There is no other answer if you want a satisfied and repeat customer!
@amwldcoin said:
I will make one last comment! As a seller you either do the right thing or the wrong thing!
The problem is who decides what the right or wrong thing is? Are you the sole arbiter? What if there is disagreement between the parties on the coin's authenticity? What if a year has passed since the purchase? What if the customer strongly disagrees with the grade? It's one thing to have different ethics or standards, but you don't need to rant against those that think differently.
It is the seller's responsibility to use the TPG guarantee!
@BruceS said:
I have to agree, the seller should refund the full amount, If without a shadow of a doubt the coin is not genuine. But given what we all know, it's his expert against a top TPG opinion. Do they get it wrong sometime, absolutely, but in this case we don't have enough info to say one way or the other. So In a case were there is some question about authenticity and no return policy use the TPG guarantee.
@amwldcoin said:
It is the seller's responsibility to use the TPG guarantee!
@BruceS said:
I have to agree, the seller should refund the full amount, If without a shadow of a doubt the coin is not genuine. But given what we all know, it's his expert against a top TPG opinion. Do they get it wrong sometime, absolutely, but in this case we don't have enough info to say one way or the other. So In a case were there is some question about authenticity and no return policy use the TPG guarantee.
I said i agree, if its a fake coin. WE don't know that either way. Right now it's your word against His (And NGC) That's all I said. Everything else doesn't matter until it is authenticated. Period.
@Rexford said:
I recently won an NGC-certified coin at auction on eBay. About a week after purchasing it and after doing some research, I determined that the coin in the holder was undeniably fake, but that the holder itself was genuine. In other words, NGC mistakenly certified a coin that was not genuine (NGC's picture matched the coin and the holder was not tampered with).
Upon requesting a return based on the coin not being as described, the seller sent me the following message:
"At the end of the day it's [your source's] opinion against NGC. I bought and sold it as NGC certified and and it is in fact true. While I understand your angle and laud your research, at the end of the day your problem and claim is with NGC, not me. If you buy a certified coin, it's guaranteed by the respective grading company, not the seller. That's why they are in a business, to assume the risk instead of the seller. So a buyer is always taking some risks and NGC might also be not fool-proof.
Practically speaking, I work more than full time and simply don't have an ability to deal with them, nor should I, given that the certification is authentic. I've lost money (more than $1K you paid) numerous times with fake coins and that is the reality in this field. In this instance you do have a good recourse with NGC."
Is this a justifiable argument? While it is true that NGC authenticated it, it is certainly not genuine and selling inauthentic coins on eBay is not allowed. If I were to open a case, who would eBay side with? How would you advise to me proceed?
Just a thought. How about sending it to PCGS as a cross over or regrade. If it is fake they should catch it. If it is real I doubt both TPG entities would miss it. If PCGS sends the coin back as a fake then go to NGC?
I would never....and I mean never expect a buyer of mine to have to jump through the hoops of a suspected counterfeit in a TPG holder to challenge the TPG. I think if you will look around...that would be true with any respected dealer! What gives here folks? You either stand behind what you sell or don't!
THIS. I ran into a similar problem at a major auction where a coin was blatantly TPG over-graded by 2 MS points (64 vs. 66). This made a 3X difference in price. The auction house said "not our problem"....which technically was correct. But it sure was lousy customer service. I found another dealer to "champion" the return of the coin to the TPG. It was subsequently downgraded and I was made whole. The auction house hasn't seen a dime of business from me since.
For gosh darn sakes. If your customer thinks the coin is a fake or just stinks to high heaven....take the darn thing back. I don't care what the stated return policies were. I don't care if it was a year later...as long as it can be shown it is the same coin and in the same condition as it was sold. Do you want to be known as the dealer than sells crap?
@amwldcoin said:
Here's a way this would most probably turn out if the coin is indeed counterfeit and buyer does as you suggest. I would be willing to wager NGC would not compensate the buyer the whole amount he paid. PCGS usually will not either.
Why not? How much would they compensate the buyer?
This seems very simple to me and I am very surprised by many of the replies. It is a fact that there are counterfeit coins in top tier TPG slabs. And if this coin is a fake, and I have no idea whether it is or not, then this is the sellers problem. The buyer bought a coin, not plastic. If the coin is bad, the deal is bad. By many of the posts here I would think you all are plastic collectors, not coin collectors.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
You should return the coin (push thru eBay) and then neg the seller at some point. I would ignore what the seller thinks and fight him thru eBay. Initiate the return now!
I don't do business with sellers who dont take returns but it would not prevent me from pushing a return thru.
Rather than malign anyone, you should have sent the coin to NGC first to get their determination as to the genuineness of the coin. If they agree with you, then they will proceed with the correct action.
@JJSingleton said:
This seems very simple to me and I am very surprised by many of the replies. It is a fact that there are counterfeit coins in top tier TPG slabs. And if this coin is a fake, and I have no idea whether it is or not, then this is the sellers problem. The buyer bought a coin, not plastic. If the coin is bad, the deal is bad. By many of the posts here I would think you all are plastic collectors, not coin collectors.
No one on this thread other than the OP can have an opinion on whether the coin is bad or not because it hasn't been shown yet.
If anyone can say a coin is bad without evidence and return it, then there's no such thing as a no returns policy. If SNAD allows returns under this scenario, that's good to know.
@Rexford said: "Thank you for all of your responses. I have sufficient proof that the coin is fake, but would rather not display the coin for my own reasons and would prefer to treat the situation as a hypothetical where it is without question inauthentic. That being said, based on your responses I will just send it back to NGC."
Patience everyone. He is NOT POSTING the coin. The Coin is GOING BACK to NGC. Apparently, the poster has done due research on the coin and he MAY HAVE a good case.
Note that he is not responding any more in this thread.
NGC will make it right if the coin is counterfeit (as will PCGS).
That said, I have a coin in a NGC holder that can be open and closed. The holder snaps closed cleanly and it would be very easy to put a fake coin in and sell it. Of course I won't do that, and I'm not giving the holder back to NGC because the item is way too cool as a "show and tell."
I certainly admire and respect amwldcoin's integrity in this matter, and would certainly take the coin back and deal with NGC myself.
And as a buyer, I might understand a seller's reluctance to take my word over NGC's, and may question my motives/competence about returning a no-return item in a major service's slab. I would also want to assure a proper resolution of the counterfeit question with the authoritative source, and avail myself of NGC's (appropriate) guarantee.
OK, so the OP sends the coin off to NGC and NGC realizes their mistake and using their guarantee offers only 70% of what the OP paid. It is now 30 days down the road and outside of Ebay's return allowance. Now what?
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
@amwldcoin said:
I will make one last comment! As a seller you either do the right thing or the wrong thing! TPG graded or not...if the buyer thinks it is counterfeit you should oblige the return. If you do not...you are not what most would expect from a respected dealer or seller.
Personally...I don't believe in a no return policy. Even the best coin pictures look different from 1 computer to another. Happy customers make repeat buyers!
I would never....and I mean never expect a buyer of mine to have to jump through the hoops of a suspected counterfeit in a TPG holder to challenge the TPG. I think if you will look around...that would be true with any respected dealer! What gives here folks? You either stand behind what you sell or don't!
I've had more than one (raw) coin returned to me for being counterfeit that was then graded. The problem? I had to eat the two-way shipping costs just for the return because I sold an item that wasn't as described and with a raw coin, it's just my word against the buyer's (I'll also note that one such coin was returned to my consignor who slabbed it and then resold it elsewhere for multiples of the original sale price--I lost out on the original commission after doing my job properly, and then lost out on an even bigger potential commission, and still had to pay the shipping fees in every direction).
So yes, if the coin is already slabbed, the buyer has a burden of proof to claim the TPG is wrong. Just saying "it's counterfeit" won't do it for me. If you can show real proof/analysis then we can talk, but I'm not eating the costs of a random buyer's opinion over a TPG. It doesn't mean the TPG is infallible, but they have huge amounts of experience AND a system in place to handle this exact issue. Send the coin to them and if you're right, their policies will make you whole. If you're wrong, then the seller never should have eaten the cost/time burden in the first place.
While I am sure that is rare...it's also part of doing business. I received a Neg from a SOB in China over a coin he claimed was counterfeit(No way and if it was it was probably worth more as a cont. counterfeit and no it wasn't a Chinese coin!). I even offered to pay his return shipping! His response was he did not know how to mail it back to me! What it really boiled down to was he paid to much(auction) and he was wanting me to just give him the coin!!!!!
I still wager ebay would side with the buyer in this case so your point is actually mute.
@amwldcoin said:
I will make one last comment! As a seller you either do the right thing or the wrong thing! TPG graded or not...if the buyer thinks it is counterfeit you should oblige the return. If you do not...you are not what most would expect from a respected dealer or seller.
Personally...I don't believe in a no return policy. Even the best coin pictures look different from 1 computer to another. Happy customers make repeat buyers!
I would never....and I mean never expect a buyer of mine to have to jump through the hoops of a suspected counterfeit in a TPG holder to challenge the TPG. I think if you will look around...that would be true with any respected dealer! What gives here folks? You either stand behind what you sell or don't!
I've had more than one (raw) coin returned to me for being counterfeit that was then graded. The problem? I had to eat the two-way shipping costs just for the return because I sold an item that wasn't as described and with a raw coin, it's just my word against the buyer's (I'll also note that one such coin was returned to my consignor who slabbed it and then resold it elsewhere for multiples of the original sale price--I lost out on the original commission after doing my job properly, and then lost out on an even bigger potential commission, and still had to pay the shipping fees in every direction).
So yes, if the coin is already slabbed, the buyer has a burden of proof to claim the TPG is wrong. Just saying "it's counterfeit" won't do it for me. If you can show real proof/analysis then we can talk, but I'm not eating the costs of a random buyer's opinion over a TPG. It doesn't mean the TPG is infallible, but they have huge amounts of experience AND a system in place to handle this exact issue. Send the coin to them and if you're right, their policies will make you whole. If you're wrong, then the seller never should have eaten the cost/time burden in the first place.
@amwldcoin said:
While I am sure that is rare...it's also part of doing business. I received a Neg from a SOB in China over a coin he claimed was counterfeit(No way and if it was it was probably worth more as a cont. counterfeit and no it wasn't a Chinese coin!). I even offered to pay his return shipping! His response was he did not know how to mail it back to me! What it really boiled down to was he paid to much(auction) and he was wanting me to just give him the coin!!!!!
I still wager ebay would side with the buyer in this case so your point is actually mute.
If the seller is half capable of defending himself, eBay won't side with the buyer. This one is too easy.
Maybe if the buyer was a newbie! You and I both know ebay is heavily skewed to favor the buyer. I would wager if I was in this situation ebay would side with me! I buy tons and return little!
@amwldcoin said:
While I am sure that is rare...it's also part of doing business. I received a Neg from a SOB in China over a coin he claimed was counterfeit(No way and if it was it was probably worth more as a cont. counterfeit and no it wasn't a Chinese coin!). I even offered to pay his return shipping! His response was he did not know how to mail it back to me! What it really boiled down to was he paid to much(auction) and he was wanting me to just give him the coin!!!!!
I still wager ebay would side with the buyer in this case so your point is actually mute.
If the seller is half capable of defending himself, eBay won't side with the buyer. This one is too easy.
Comments
Most respected dealers do not charge a 10% restocking fee for returned items.
This deserves a response! If you will read my terms....you will see the restocking fee is waved if a return is started within 7 days after receipt. I'm not gonna allow vest pocket dealers to rent my coins to try and sell at my expense!
I have yet to have to charge a restocking fee after around a year of initiating this policy!
No...I would just tell him to return it at my expense! If a buyer thinks it is counterfeit..then send it back and I will deal with it!
The problem is who decides what the right or wrong thing is? Are you the sole arbiter? What if there is disagreement between the parties on the coin's authenticity? What if a year has passed since the purchase? What if the customer strongly disagrees with the grade? It's one thing to have different ethics or standards, but you don't need to rant against those that think differently.
I have to agree, the seller should refund the full amount, If without a shadow of a doubt the coin is not genuine. But given what we all know, it's his expert against a top TPG opinion. Do they get it wrong sometime, absolutely, but in this case we don't have enough info to say one way or the other. So In a case were there is some question about authenticity and no return policy use the TPG guarantee.
eBay ID-bruceshort978
Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
Man you guys are dragging me into this when I am ready to hit the hay! The right or wrong is if the buyer thinks the coin is counterfeit you should accept a return! There is no other answer if you want a satisfied and repeat customer!
It is the seller's responsibility to use the TPG guarantee!
I said i agree, if its a fake coin. WE don't know that either way. Right now it's your word against His (And NGC) That's all I said. Everything else doesn't matter until it is authenticated. Period.
eBay ID-bruceshort978
Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
Just a thought. How about sending it to PCGS as a cross over or regrade. If it is fake they should catch it. If it is real I doubt both TPG entities would miss it. If PCGS sends the coin back as a fake then go to NGC?
THIS. I ran into a similar problem at a major auction where a coin was blatantly TPG over-graded by 2 MS points (64 vs. 66). This made a 3X difference in price. The auction house said "not our problem"....which technically was correct. But it sure was lousy customer service. I found another dealer to "champion" the return of the coin to the TPG. It was subsequently downgraded and I was made whole. The auction house hasn't seen a dime of business from me since.
For gosh darn sakes. If your customer thinks the coin is a fake or just stinks to high heaven....take the darn thing back. I don't care what the stated return policies were. I don't care if it was a year later...as long as it can be shown it is the same coin and in the same condition as it was sold. Do you want to be known as the dealer than sells crap?
Why not? How much would they compensate the buyer?
So there is a fake coin in an authentic TPG slab and the OP won't post it. This claim is baseless imo without images.
Best, SH
This seems very simple to me and I am very surprised by many of the replies. It is a fact that there are counterfeit coins in top tier TPG slabs. And if this coin is a fake, and I have no idea whether it is or not, then this is the sellers problem. The buyer bought a coin, not plastic. If the coin is bad, the deal is bad. By many of the posts here I would think you all are plastic collectors, not coin collectors.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
You should return the coin (push thru eBay) and then neg the seller at some point. I would ignore what the seller thinks and fight him thru eBay. Initiate the return now!
I don't do business with sellers who dont take returns but it would not prevent me from pushing a return thru.
Rather than malign anyone, you should have sent the coin to NGC first to get their determination as to the genuineness of the coin. If they agree with you, then they will proceed with the correct action.
I agree with the seller.
Fan of the Oxford Comma
CCAC Representative of the General Public
2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
No one on this thread other than the OP can have an opinion on whether the coin is bad or not because it hasn't been shown yet.
If anyone can say a coin is bad without evidence and return it, then there's no such thing as a no returns policy. If SNAD allows returns under this scenario, that's good to know.
Given the number of requests to post the coin, are there good reasons to not post the coin?
@Rexford said: "Thank you for all of your responses. I have sufficient proof that the coin is fake, but would rather not display the coin for my own reasons and would prefer to treat the situation as a hypothetical where it is without question inauthentic. That being said, based on your responses I will just send it back to NGC."
Patience everyone. He is NOT POSTING the coin. The Coin is GOING BACK to NGC. Apparently, the poster has done due research on the coin and he MAY HAVE a good case.
Note that he is not responding any more in this thread.
NGC will make it right if the coin is counterfeit (as will PCGS).
That said, I have a coin in a NGC holder that can be open and closed. The holder snaps closed cleanly and it would be very easy to put a fake coin in and sell it. Of course I won't do that, and I'm not giving the holder back to NGC because the item is way too cool as a "show and tell."
I certainly admire and respect amwldcoin's integrity in this matter, and would certainly take the coin back and deal with NGC myself.
And as a buyer, I might understand a seller's reluctance to take my word over NGC's, and may question my motives/competence about returning a no-return item in a major service's slab. I would also want to assure a proper resolution of the counterfeit question with the authoritative source, and avail myself of NGC's (appropriate) guarantee.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
OK, so the OP sends the coin off to NGC and NGC realizes their mistake and using their guarantee offers only 70% of what the OP paid. It is now 30 days down the road and outside of Ebay's return allowance. Now what?
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
I've had more than one (raw) coin returned to me for being counterfeit that was then graded. The problem? I had to eat the two-way shipping costs just for the return because I sold an item that wasn't as described and with a raw coin, it's just my word against the buyer's (I'll also note that one such coin was returned to my consignor who slabbed it and then resold it elsewhere for multiples of the original sale price--I lost out on the original commission after doing my job properly, and then lost out on an even bigger potential commission, and still had to pay the shipping fees in every direction).
So yes, if the coin is already slabbed, the buyer has a burden of proof to claim the TPG is wrong. Just saying "it's counterfeit" won't do it for me. If you can show real proof/analysis then we can talk, but I'm not eating the costs of a random buyer's opinion over a TPG. It doesn't mean the TPG is infallible, but they have huge amounts of experience AND a system in place to handle this exact issue. Send the coin to them and if you're right, their policies will make you whole. If you're wrong, then the seller never should have eaten the cost/time burden in the first place.
While I am sure that is rare...it's also part of doing business. I received a Neg from a SOB in China over a coin he claimed was counterfeit(No way and if it was it was probably worth more as a cont. counterfeit and no it wasn't a Chinese coin!). I even offered to pay his return shipping! His response was he did not know how to mail it back to me! What it really boiled down to was he paid to much(auction) and he was wanting me to just give him the coin!!!!!
I still wager ebay would side with the buyer in this case so your point is actually mute.
Nothing to see here. No pix...move on.
I'd just send the darn thing to NGC since this is a long distance deal.
If the seller is half capable of defending himself, eBay won't side with the buyer. This one is too easy.
Maybe if the buyer was a newbie! You and I both know ebay is heavily skewed to favor the buyer. I would wager if I was in this situation ebay would side with me! I buy tons and return little!