Options
AT coin in Suecure Plus holder with trueview, can it be?
CommemKing
Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
I posted this coin last week. I recently got it off ebay and now have it in hand. It looks identical to the picture. Many said that this coin has been doctored to add AT. My question if it is doctored, how did it get past the "sniffer"? This tone had to be on the coin when it was sent to PCGS. And it definately looks like it could be AT. Anybody have any insight as to whats going on here? What PCGS says is right, correct 
I still have time to return it. I might return it if you can convince me.
0
Comments
Without saying anyrhing about the coin in question, I would think there are 2 checks when it comes to detecting AT: sniffer and graders. First one can be fooled if the active ingredient used to tone the coin has been neutralized or doesn't leave a trace; and the second one depends on the intensity and type of the light source used in grading, as well as the grader's own knowledge.
I didn't think it was that easy to pass the sniffer. My faith in Secure Plus is slowly dwindling.
It is one of those coins that is on the border between AT and NT. The toning could have happened naturally, so the graders felt it was Market Acceptable. It's likely one of those where if you sent 100 at the same time, then all would come back AT. However, if only a few are mixed into a submission, they look plausible enough to straight grade.
Sniffer still provides a valuable service, in my opinion. If the coin passes the sniffer, you can be sure it won't turn in the holder.
It looks a little like album toning. Maybe the album was stored in an odd environment?
My YouTube Channel
Technique - soak album in a mild sulfurous solution (~.25 M), allow album to dry, insert coin, wait 6 to 12 months and viola! A coin that is NT-ish and cannot be distinguished from the real deal (especially since the "real deal" is merely a coin placed in an album produced with sulfur-containing paper)
Most coins with neon pink, electric blue, and certain shades of gold are artificially toned, even if stabbed as market acceptable by a TPG
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The Sniffer (if it is indeed still used) does not detect AT. All it does is determine if certain PCGS-banned chemicals are present on the coin.
There are many ways to achieve artificial toning that don't involve any of these specific substances. E.g., cooking a coin in an oven.
Graders are the ones who make judgments about the legitimacy of a coin's toning/color, using the skills and training they've acquired over many years.
Lance.
The most obvious is gased after it was graded. Hasn't there been numerous threads on that?
I don't think the toning pattern would be this even if the coin was gassed in the holder. Usually the place where the gas entered the seal would show denser toning and the toning would radiate away from that spot.
"The most obvious is gased after it was graded. Hasn't there been numerous threads on that?"
The new secure plus slabs are air tight. Plus the trueview was done before it was stabbed. That reasoning I don't think is plausible and virtually impossible.
How many grader(s) this coin needs to pass before it is called "NT?" Is that true only one is needed because it is a modern coin?
Another question is whether finalizer checks every modern coins before their grades are finalized? Isn't ture that other than pop top modern, they are spotty check?
I think if you like it then you should keep it, ultimately it is your opinion that matters here since it's going to live in your collection. If you have a reputable coin shop nearby you could seek an in-hand opinion. I assume you didn't break the bank on this?
My non-professional, collector opinion.
Collector, occasional seller
It is no different than all of the crazy toned ASEs you see on eBay these days.
I agree with Lance's comment. Also, since the toning was captured in the TrueView, you can pretty much cross off gassed after being stabbed.
My guess is that it spent time in some kind of bicentennial souvenir cardboard holder.
There are non-chemical methods available for artificially "toning" a coin as well.
The sniffer
There's a reason PCGS stopped advertising that so quickly. Also, see Lance's post above.
Former CoFounder of Choice Numismatics
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
That gasing deal has got to stop. The only way I can see that happening is if pcgs makes their slabs vacuum sealed. How hard would that be to accomplish? Personally I don't think it would be very hard to come up with a method to stop this crap in its tracks.
As far as the OP's coin goes, if you think it's not right now, I'm sure that won't change down the line.
Your call my coin brother.
Those concentric colors no longer scare me like they once did. It may have been accelerated, but it was a natural acceleration that is now acceptable.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
They passed all my gold toners that most deemed artificial too.
I'm not going to reply to the question as asked, but rather offer a thought from a seller's perspective. If the coin looks just like the image and you like it, you should keep it, especially if you bought it off eBay at auction. Even if there is a return policy (most likely because eBay all but requires it) auctions aren't meant to be approval sales, and returns are a big hassle. It's one thing if the coin doesn't match the picture, but it seems like everything is exactly what you expected. In fairness to the seller, this question should have been considered before placing a bid.
But could you see a statement like that years ago, wwd97 think?
AT but MA - do you homework - there are many examples with similar toning (usually from one seller) in the archives of Ebay. This style of toning has be getting slabbed at PCGS for years (at least 5 maybe 7).
The pictured coin has my favorite kind of toning on a Cameo proof. Multi colored, rim toning that frames the frosted central devices of the coin. It makes for a very positive eye appeal.
This kind of toning does happen naturally if the coins are stored in an album for a long time. Of course the toning can be accelerated in various ways. AT, NT, who knows.
I guess if the coin is deemed to be MA it will be graded and encapsulated. Further there is collector demand for these kinds of toned coins (who does not like "pretty colors"), ergo these coins will continue to appear in the marketplace.
I love the coin and will keep it. I do remember a time not too long ago where PCGS was calling everything AT that didnt have that classic toned appearance. Apparently the market for toned coins has lightened up a bit.
Nothing jumps out to me about this coin as off. I love the toning, both in terms of color and type. I'm not one keen on moderns or commerative coins, but this is one I would add to my collection.
As @airplanenut stated, this coin is exactly as purchased and would not warrant a legitimate reason for return. I had someone try that on me before. I had a true view, AND multiple photos of the coin detailing all of the alloy mix copper spots ($2.50 Sesquicentennial) which were not nearly as bad in hand as the true view detailed. The buyer had it for over TWENTY days, and on CHRISTMAS DAY they contacted me attempting to return it because "it didn't fit in with my collection." Well, it's too much of a coincidence that they tried to return it Christmas evening, and they had it for 20+ days. I told them no and they ruined my 100% positive feedback on eBay. It made me cancel my eBay store for a while because I had enough of disgusting eBay buyers like that. It wasn't the first time.
So with that being said, your questions of this item should have been asked to yourself before you bought it. It's not like you accidentally purchased it or anything. No legitimate cause for return here, as it's a beautiful, naturally toned coin. I've seen thousands.
I do not believe that the majority of currently market acceptable toned coins haven't had at least a little help.
If this is a pretty coin you bought on E-Bay and didn't spend much for it, no worries. As Airplane Nut said, if you knew what you were buying when you bought it, it's your coin. Period.
Regarding the comments re a coin being "market acceptable:" - as I see it, the only thing that matters is whether a particular coin is acceptable to a potential buyer.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Wow, the tone regarding toning has sure changed. It wasn't that many years ago that anyone who "offered at least a little help" as a coin doctor was being branded a criminal here on this forum.
AT and NT have to do with intent.
Not so much how it got to look that way, but what methods were used to make it look that way.
AT done right, will pass the sniffer every time... just use the correct process and ingredients.... The argument today is not so much AT/NT, as is it a screaming fake.... Most of these have been 'assisted', however, collectors have become convinced that a coin needs colorful tarnish to be attractive. So now premiums are paid, and where profit potential exists, it will be exploited. Color collectors really don't care, as long as people do not criticize their treasures. Coin collecting has an entirely new dimension - and it can be expensive. Cheers, RickO
I think its natural and comes from one of the proof set holders with commemorative.
I have seen and own a few commem's in those sets and seen the other coins starting oe toned as this one.
If you ever decide you don't like it let me know.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC FOR SALE
Ha! lol Dog97 would break the slab in two with his bare hands to free the forbidden. We are slowly being brainwashed by an ever growing presence to colors on coins. Dealers want it, buyers want it so the services are providing a vehicle of supply and demand.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen