True or False - all Morgan & Peace dollars are "VAM's"
CyndieChildress
Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
A member on a coin group stated that all Morgan and peace dollars are "VAM's". Is this true?
True or False - all Morgan & Peace dollars are "VAM's"
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
1
Comments
Is this a trick question?
Technically true
Probably False. Some are not discovered or so common as they are not listed?
While there are VAMs for every date, not every coin is a VAM.
I think that they are actually ALL VAM's.....It's just that they haven't been assigned a number. For example, if 86% of all 1886 P's look like this, what is the point of assigning a number to them ?
It's true. VAM numbers are designations for obverse and reverse die combinations. A coin with a die combination that has no particularly unique characteristics is assigned VAM 1. The VAM experts here can explain it more eloquently.
Not at all a trick question, lol. I am truly trying to understand. I am researching it on VAM world. I just thought I would ask the group for their opinion.
Thanks for the input
Thank you!
True - All Morgans and Peace can be classified as VAM's depending on the OBV & REV combo...IMO.
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Since no one other than Leroy VanAllen and A. George Mallis have ever created a cataloging system of identifying obverse/reverse die pairings for Morgan and Peace Dollars, they can only be VAMs. I suppose if you want to consider the numbers that Breen assigned to a limited number of Morgan and Peace Dollar die pairs, then one could eventually extrapolate a Breen numbering system for them also.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
VAMs are only those die varieties and parings identified and numbered by specialists. This does not include all Morgan and Peace dollars.
A very large number of working dies were used, and the number of VAM varieties identified do not include them all.
I saw somewhere on VAM World a mention that some were not just not worthy of listing.
However, new die marriages (or VAM's) are being discovered each year across the series.
It can be cheap fun searching ebay with an occasional rare cherry pick to keep you motivated.
You know that progress is being made when you have so many pickup points (or PUPS) in your head for a particular date (1878p 8TF for example) that you can qualify or disqualify them rather quickly.
You don't need to know every VAM, but the PUPS speed the process.
Oh... we all have a blue box of Twenty that are nothing but mistakes and gambles that didn't pay off.
It's no different than all Bust 1/2's are an Overton Variety!
I understood the normal strike to be Vam-1
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I prefer to say that all Morgan and Peace dollars have a possibility of being singled out for a particular VAM listing. In the case of most VAM's, unless you are a specialist or VAM collector, no one cares.
If you wish to make a tiny mark for yourself in numismatics, start searching/attributing these coins. In no time you will have added a few "discovery coins" to your numismatic resume. Have fun. Wink.
I have both Peace and Morgan's and when i heard that they were "all" VAM's, i was quite surprised. I think i need to buy the book instead of just reading VAM world.
Thank you for the input.
I need to study die pairings
100 percent True.
True
VAM VAM, you're welcome ma'am.
Mostly true. Technically Roger is correct, in that there are die pairs that haven't yet been cataloged, making them not VAMs yet, but by discovering that fact, they become catalogable, either by themselves or by lumping them in with others with characteristics that are close enough to being the same that it is not feasible to differentiate them (e.g., the many die pairs of 1923 Peace dollars that are VAM 1).
Another thing I'll add is that no Morgan or Peace dollar is more than one VAM, unless there is a mistake in the listings.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
While I understand the point made by others, I'm not a fan of lumping things together. If it's different, then it deserves its own little pigeon hole with nesting materials and possibly an outside perch.
There is also the problem of "death by minutiae." Varieties are fun to search for, collect and speculate about. But interest declines as the square of the magnification required increases. Early large cent varieties were and remain popular because they are evident and of limited number. Later large cent varieties are less evident and less popular. Seated Liberty silver varieties show similar decline in interest for similar reasons.
this seems like an easy question to answer, but it ends up like the old "All thumbs are fingers but all fingers aren't thumbs" type of riddle that confuses so many people.
Undiscovered varieties do not yet have VAM attributions. So technically, not all Morgan and Peace dollars 'are VAMs'. There are also 'VAM Not Assigned' varieties with no VAM designations. Not sure if these just default to VAM-1 or they truly have to VAM attribution.
if your talking about designation no leave that to the experts. I am going to submit a few
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I think VamWorld regulars once concluded there were about 300 active, hardcore Vammers.
I wonder how many EAC members and Bust Half collectors support their respective market?
Luckily Vamming is still primarily a hunter sport and less about the collector.
"A hunter's sport"
Funny you say that. Mike Fey refers to his 10x loupe as his "Elephant Gun"
It's true that every silver dollar was struck by precisely one specific obverse and one specific reverse die. If you really want to catalog all 17 bazillion pairings, be my guest.
Lol, I like it
I'm a Hunter! Lol, love my Micro Midas 3 and my Mathews equally
True - The objective of the VAM number system is to cover all of the die marriages on Morgan and Peace Dollars.
False - All Morgan and Peace Dollars are not assigned VAM numbers, therefore all Morgan and Peace Dollars are not VAMs.
This question can be be interpreted either way depending on perspective
Kevin
That makes sense. Thank you for your help!
Now I can understand where the member of the forum was coming from.
It is not necessarily a black / white answer.
Thank you!
I voted True, but would believe False if they missed or skipped some.
I agree with Roger on this issue....Cheers, RickO
False. VAMS exist becasue there are non VAM coins to compare them to and identify them as different and separate from the original non VAM specimen.
That's what I thought, hence the poll
This is not true. VAM does not refer to an error or die condition. A VAM number refers to a specific die pair to the extent that it is unique with respect to other die pairs of the same date and mint. Even coins for which everything about them is "normal" (no doubling, no major die deterioration, no repunched date/mint mark -- a truly boring coin in that sense) have a VAM number. For most years from 1879 onward, this is VAM 1 -- normal dies. For years that had a hub design transition (78 all mints, 79-S, 80-CC, many 1900-04, 21), there can be normal dies for each hub design. These have different VAM numbers. For example, 1921 has VAM 1 for normal dies of the D1 reverse hub, VAM 3 for normal dies of the D2 reverse hub. For some dates, 78-CC and 80-CC, for example, there are no coins listed for VAM 1, because there are no coins that would be listed as having normal dies. The notable exception to this rule is 1878 VAM 1, which is not a normal die.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
But...is a VAM a VAM if it is no longer a VAM ?
I disagree that a normal die is a "VAM" or "Vam 1" regardless of its label.
Nevertheless, that's how it's defined.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I think the better statement would be that this is how it is defined by some but not all...
True
I disagree. Unattributed or yet to be discovered VAMS are just that: undiscovered and waiting to be assigned a number. That doesn't mean that the pieces are not VAMs as that concept/term has been used and widely understood.
@ProfHaroldHill Defined by some, including Mr's Van Allen and Mallis.
Go read the book.
Yes, I have read this book. I used to own it. I and many others do not consider some coins "vams"...They used the the words "normal die" That to me is not a VAM.. This is just silly and a waste of time to argue about.. Good Bye!
Normal die in most cases is classified as VAM 1 so I'm not understanding your logic
@CoinsAndMoreCoins
Didn't mean to cause any trouble, it was an honest question by a new young collector. I actually am thankful for the comments because it's a confusing subject. And Now I Know Why! Lol
A lot of different opinions here. I will pick up the book and go from there;-)
Hope everyone is having a great weekend
A benefit is that you know the coin is not another VAM or an undiscovered VAM. I think it could be useful.
True.