Does anybody know why this $600 morgan sold for $21,150?

joebb21 · April 30, 2017 9:32AM

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1878-8tf-1-ms64-prooflike-pcgs-pcgs-population-127-12-ngc-census-99-9-from-the-r-thayer-sheets-yorktown-c/a/1253-17949.s?type=surl-1253--17949&short=1253*17949

oih82w8 · April 30, 2017 9:39AM

It probably looks alot better in hand. "5150" money there.

ChrisRx · April 30, 2017 9:42AM

Edited to add:

Apparently it's a "vam" variety

CascadeChris · April 30, 2017 9:50AM

It's a vam 14.7

CascadeChris · April 30, 2017 9:52AM

A very expensive coin in 64PL. I'm surprised Heritage let it go unattributed, but it didn't seem to matter.

Insider2 · April 30, 2017 11:56AM

@CascadeChris said: "A very expensive coin in 64PL. I'm surprised Heritage let it go unattributed, but it didn't seem to matter."

I'll bet they did not know, and never bothered to VAM such a common date. The original owner seems to have no clue what he had either. With a proper description both could have possibly made more money.

caddyshack · April 30, 2017 11:57AM

never drink and bid

caddyshack · April 30, 2017 11:57AM

who was the under bidder tho???

Walkerfan · April 30, 2017 11:59AM

Insanity...

Walkerfan · April 30, 2017 12:01PM

@caddyshack said:
who was the under bidder tho???

Potted plant?

roadrunner · April 30, 2017 12:35PM

Even if Heritage let it go unattributed, they have/had the opportunity to buy it out of the auction like anyone else.

It's certainly no up-grade candidate.

CascadeChris · April 30, 2017 12:36PM

@Walkerfan said:
Insanity...

Not at all for a 14.7 in 64PL which is too pop aside one in 64DMPL. Its an extremely rare bird and 8TF vam guys have money to burn on an upgrade or rare one they don't have.

CascadeChris · April 30, 2017 12:39PM

@Insider2 said:
@CascadeChris said: "A very expensive coin in 64PL. I'm surprised Heritage let it go unattributed, but it didn't seem to matter."

I'll bet they did not know, and never bothered to VAM such a common date. The original owner seems to have no clue what he had either. With a proper description both could have possibly made more money.

8TF VAMS are some of the rarest and most expensive Morgan's. For a large auction house to not at least have a variety guy check for a rare bird on all 8TF's is insane to me. Maybe I should send them my resume

unclebob · April 30, 2017 12:48PM

If collectors can geek out over die marriages in other series, why not Morgan's?

VAM's are undervalued and will only increase.

The 1878 8tf are the rage with about a dozen known of the 14.7 in Mint State as best I can count.

By comparison, an example of my avatar auctioned off for $2500. There are less than 20 in Mint State.

roadrunner · April 30, 2017 12:53PM

@CascadeChris said:

8TF VAMS are some of the rarest and most expensive Morgan's. For a large auction house to not at least have a variety guy check for a rare bird on all 8TF's is insane to me. Maybe I should send them my resume

You're assuming the auction house didn't know. I submit they well might have known and decided to take a shot of purchasing it outright for a bigger profit....and hoping the VAM guys were sleeping. I'd bet these type of issues arise all the time at the auction houses. And time doesn't always favor fully running down all the potentials with each and every coin.

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · April 30, 2017 1:05PM

@roadrunner said:

@CascadeChris said:

8TF VAMS are some of the rarest and most expensive Morgan's. For a large auction house to not at least have a variety guy check for a rare bird on all 8TF's is insane to me. Maybe I should send them my resume

You're assuming the auction house didn't know. I submit they well might have known and decided to take a shot of purchasing it outright for a bigger profit....and hoping the VAM guys were sleeping. I'd bet these type of issues arise all the time at the auction houses. And time doesn't always favor fully running down all the potentials with each and every coin.

...I wish there was a "Daaaaaaaaamn" button press

CascadeChris · April 30, 2017 1:17PM

@roadrunner said:

@CascadeChris said:

8TF VAMS are some of the rarest and most expensive Morgan's. For a large auction house to not at least have a variety guy check for a rare bird on all 8TF's is insane to me. Maybe I should send them my resume

You're assuming the auction house didn't know. I submit they well might have known and decided to take a shot of purchasing it outright for a bigger profit....and hoping the VAM guys were sleeping. I'd bet these type of issues arise all the time at the auction houses. And time doesn't always favor fully running down all the potentials with each and every coin.

Possibly I guess but I tend to go by Occam's razor. Although I don't know the behind the scenes business workings of large auction houses.

Insider2 · April 30, 2017 1:37PM

@CascadeChris said: "Maybe I should send them my resume "

Beat you to it...I sent them mine back in the 1980's

@roadrunner said: "You're assuming the auction house didn't know. I submit they well might have known and decided to take a shot of purchasing it outright for a bigger profit....and hoping the VAM guys were sleeping. I'd bet these type of issues arise all the time at the auction houses. And time doesn't always favor fully running down all the potentials with each and every coin."

IMO, if there was even a hint that a major auction house did something on the shady side to screw a client, it would not go over well. Better to claim they overlooked something than the fact that they did not know or were looking to get it bought in on the cheap by a shill bidder with connections to the "house." Worse things have probably happened.

caddyshack · April 30, 2017 2:12PM

heritage has world class catalogers and numismatists. i say they just missed it. it makes no sense for them to look at every single morgan for a vam-its unprofitable and a waste of time since 99% would be common.

clearly, the vam guys watched and bid-so no harm done. if it sold for $200.00 may be then there would be an issue.

roadrunner · April 30, 2017 2:25PM

As I said, not every coin gets evaluated and pushed to it's best "reasonable" potential (varieties identified, crossovers, regrades, upgrades, CAC, etc.). Some coins might have to be worked through the system for months, or even a year to maximize its potential. Are we to assume that if the auction house doesn't do this they are "screwing" the client? If a "client" offers coins outright to Heritage or any other auction house, with clear up grade potential, are they supposed to notify the seller of this and pay more money for the coin? Clearly dealers buy from clients all the time where coins have upgrade potential and no additional compensation is made.

oih82w8 · April 30, 2017 3:29PM

One of those that slipped through the cracks. Sometimes even the experts overlook a coin for varieties.

AmazonX · April 30, 2017 3:44PM

The owner must of had one hell of a surprise.

BillJones · April 30, 2017 3:51PM

The coin is beyond my level of understanding, but then I'm not a die variety guy.

In my half cent die variety days I paid $1,100 for a ground salvage 1805 C-2. Most collectors would not have paid $15 for it. I sold it for $1,200 and was not sad to see it go.

10000lakes · April 30, 2017 5:17PM

I had a $500 marker bid on this lot, I had noticed that is was a 14.7 vam and was curious to see how high it would sell for. I think it was over $2000 before the live auction. So a few of the 8tf collectors already had identified what it was. I have a 14.18 vam for sale, and really have no idea what the market price will end up being, I can only hope that a few of these bidders show up

CascadeChris · April 30, 2017 6:57PM

@caddyshack said:
heritage has world class catalogers and numismatists. i say they just missed it. it makes no sense for them to look at every single morgan for a vam-its unprofitable and a waste of time since 99% would be common.

clearly, the vam guys watched and bid-so no harm done. if it sold for $200.00 may be then there would be an issue.

Agreed, generally. But they should have someone who at least knows 8TF Morgan vams to look each one over. There are a more than a few that command big bucks in any grade.

DollarAfterDollar · April 30, 2017 7:59PM

Somewhere in America tonight there's a consignor receiving CPR.

coindeuce · April 30, 2017 8:07PM

There is a very short list of 8TF VAM specialists with pockets deep enough to buy the high grade ultra rarities now that Lloyd Gabbert and a few others are no longer with us, but I suspect that there is a covert whale active in the market now. I would not be surprised if the VAM 14.7 buyer is the same individual who bought the crossed/upgraded ex:Newman VAM 9 for just shy of $25,000 from NFC. If you think $21.2K is big money for a PCGS64 PL VAM 14.7 or $25K is a lot of money for a PCGS MS63 VAM 9, you're not keeping your eye on the ball. The finest known VAM 9 is presently available behind the scenes in 6 figures. And a Utah VAM specialist paid $38K+ for an PCGS 58 VAM 14.19 nearly 3 years ago. Lots of upward mobility for ultra rare 8TF VAMs.

ricko · May 1, 2017 6:30AM

Wow.... I guess I should learn more about VAM's.....Cheers, RickO

JBN · May 1, 2017 6:48AM

@DollarAfterDollar said:
Somewhere in America tonight there's a consignor receiving CPR.

Or, like I would, celebrate by draining the last of my JW Blue.

Then the 45 day wait for Heritage payment - that will be an extra long wait for this consignor.

CyndieChildress · May 1, 2017 7:47AM

@CascadeChris said:

@Insider2 said:
@CascadeChris said: "A very expensive coin in 64PL. I'm surprised Heritage let it go unattributed, but it didn't seem to matter."

I'll bet they did not know, and never bothered to VAM such a common date. The original owner seems to have no clue what he had either. With a proper description both could have possibly made more money.

8TF VAMS are some of the rarest and most expensive Morgan's. For a large auction house to not at least have a variety guy check for a rare bird on all 8TF's is insane to me. Maybe I should send them my resume

@CascadeChris
What does the TF stand for in "8TF"?
I'm still learning about the VAM varieties.

oih82w8 · May 1, 2017 7:50AM

@CyndieChildress said:

@CascadeChris said:

@Insider2 said:
@CascadeChris said: "A very expensive coin in 64PL. I'm surprised Heritage let it go unattributed, but it didn't seem to matter."

I'll bet they did not know, and never bothered to VAM such a common date. The original owner seems to have no clue what he had either. With a proper description both could have possibly made more money.

8TF VAMS are some of the rarest and most expensive Morgan's. For a large auction house to not at least have a variety guy check for a rare bird on all 8TF's is insane to me. Maybe I should send them my resume

@CascadeChris
What does the TF stand for in "8TF"?
I'm still learning about the VAM varieties.

TF = Tail Feathers. Here are a couple of links for further explanation of this VAM variety.

http://www.vamworld.com/1878-P+VAM-14.7

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/40159

mt_msla · May 1, 2017 7:53AM

I don't VAM. Life is too short. And so is my attention span.

ColonelJessup · May 1, 2017 8:21AM

I recently busted coinlieutenant's chops about a VAM 19.2b and, when he questioned its existence, I explained the dramatic differences in the size of the second die-break within the bottom of the "B" in Liberty.
He corrected me, concerned that I was "losing it", by gently reminding me that this was the marker for Sheldon 19.2b.
There's a more-than-off chance neither of us was right, but I could only reply "Well played"
I am now restricting my efforts to "genuine" type coins with dates in the Fibonacci series.

asheland · May 1, 2017 9:16AM

Whoa!

CascadeChris · May 1, 2017 9:53AM

@CyndieChildress said:

@CascadeChris said:

@Insider2 said:
@CascadeChris said: "A very expensive coin in 64PL. I'm surprised Heritage let it go unattributed, but it didn't seem to matter."

I'll bet they did not know, and never bothered to VAM such a common date. The original owner seems to have no clue what he had either. With a proper description both could have possibly made more money.

8TF VAMS are some of the rarest and most expensive Morgan's. For a large auction house to not at least have a variety guy check for a rare bird on all 8TF's is insane to me. Maybe I should send them my resume

@CascadeChris
What does the TF stand for in "8TF"?
I'm still learning about the VAM varieties.

It stands for 8 Tail Feathers. The original Morgan was designed with the eagle having 8 Tail Feathers until it was quickly realized that there should only be 7 and the design was changed. 8TF Morgan's are rare in general but some dies didn't even last more than a handful of strikings. They had issues with dies cracking too quickly and it's believed the dies were taken out of service for inspection to figure out why. Add to that natural attrition and the Pittman Act meltdown and you have some of the most rare and valuable VAMs in the 8TF pantheon.

CyndieChildress · May 1, 2017 10:19AM

@CascadeChris said:

@CyndieChildress said:

@CascadeChris said:

@Insider2 said:
@CascadeChris said: "A very expensive coin in 64PL. I'm surprised Heritage let it go unattributed, but it didn't seem to matter."

I'll bet they did not know, and never bothered to VAM such a common date. The original owner seems to have no clue what he had either. With a proper description both could have possibly made more money.

8TF VAMS are some of the rarest and most expensive Morgan's. For a large auction house to not at least have a variety guy check for a rare bird on all 8TF's is insane to me. Maybe I should send them my resume

@CascadeChris
What does the TF stand for in "8TF"?
I'm still learning about the VAM varieties.

It stands for 8 Tail Feathers. The original Morgan was designed with the eagle having 8 Tail Feathers until it was quickly realized that there should only be 7 and the design was changed. 8TF Morgan's are rare in general but some dies didn't even last more than a handful of strikings. They had issues with dies cracking too quickly and it's believed the dies were taken out of service for inspection to figure out why. Add to that natural attrition and the Pittman Act meltdown and you have some of the most rare and valuable VAMs in the 8TF pantheon.

Duh, I feel like an idiot. Lol. As soon as I read your response, I remembered! Must of been too early for me to comment. Thank you for taking the time to reply - it is VERY much appreciated. I have been studying so much I feel like I'm back in college, lol
I'm now off to count tail feathers as I totally forgot that was on my list of coins to check!
Hope your having a great Monday!

Does anybody know why this $600 morgan sold for $21,150?

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