Old Fattie Franklins Go In For Resubmission - Got em Back
Ronyahski
Posts: 3,119 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've made some recent observations and comments that I thought that the grading standards for Frankies have changed over the past couple of years. I based that on my study of coins going into auction that I have reviewed over the past couple of years , and online coins as well. For the 15 years prior to that, I have been focusing on other series , not paying much attention to Franklins.
Years ago I was all over the Franklin market. All my acquisitions of slabbed coins are 20 -30 years old now and I still own hundreds of them that all still sitting in the SDB in their original holders. Curiosity finally got to me. I submitted 10 Old Fattie NGC Franklins from my extras for Crossover. Thought I would share the results and my observations (keep in mind all of the prior Old Fattie grades were prior to NGC using the FBL designation):
1948-D
NGC Old Fattie Grade: MS 65
My estimated PCGS grade now: 66 FBL
PCGS grade: MS 66 FBL
No brainer FBL, as almost all 1948 coins are. A solid MS 65 back in the day, fairly nice toning, not killer, but a very hard date to find with nice toning.
1949-D
NGC Old Fattie Holder: MS 64
My estimated PCGS grade now: MS 64+ FBL
PCGS grade: MS 65 FBL
I thought the reverse toning would be considered too dark, and knock it back a notch. But for that it is a 65+FBL. One of the nicest obverse toners I have ever seen on a 49-D. Maybe the obverse carried the day a bit here and eye appeal wins.
1950-D
NGC Old Fattie Holder: MS65
My estimated PCGS grade now: MS 65+ FBL
PCGS grade: PCGS 65 FBL
This was either the first or second 1950 - D ever graded 65 by NGC. Very original coin with that original hazy luster. Maybe they didn't like the luster rub on the cheek or the original luster. I thought it deserved something more than a run of the mill bright and shiny 65.
1952
NGC Old Fattie Holder: MS 66
My estimated PCGS grade: MS 66 FBL
PCGS grade : MS 66
A nice solid B toner 66. Got that right. How this is not an FBL is beyond me. More on FBL later, but I don't think the consistency has been in place over the years for grading FBL. Standards have changed.
1953-S
NGC Old Fattie Holder: MS 66
My estimated PCGS grade: MS 66
PCGS grade: MS66
I think the only reason it is not a 67 is because of the weak strike. One of the nicest toned 53-S I have ever seen. Certainly the prettiest one up on CoinFacts as of now.
1955
NGC Old Fattie Holder: MS65
My estimated PCGS grade: MS 66 FBL
PCGS grade: MS 65+
Quite a stunner 55. Maybe one too many small hits either on the bell or the cheek, so not getting a 66, but rather a 65+, can't dwell on that too much. But to also not get a FBL, again I don't get it. This coin has a tick going through the bell lines. From my recent observations, this is enough to keep it it out of FBL. In the past, if there was a tick, but it was located on a bell line that was otherwise fully struck and the tick did not obliterate the line, it was still considered a FBL.
1962-D
NGC Old Fattie Holder: 65
My estimated PCGS grade: MS 65+
PCGS grade: MS 66
Another great toner, the nicest two sided toner up on CoinFacts. My hindsight grade: MS 66. I think 66 is the right grade. I also think eye appeal has snuck into the grading a bit more than the past. Which I don't mind. I weigh eye appeal and luster over technical preservation and strike for my own tastes anyway.
1962-D
NGC Old Fattie Holder: MS 65
My estimated PCGS grade: MS 66 FBL
PCGS grade: MS 66 FBL
A nice upgrade from the $$$ perspective. I wasn't as sure about the FBL on this coin as I was on the 52 or 55. The strike is not as full as those two coins, however there isn't the slightest mark on the lines. Edited to add: I just got this picture back after this post, I noticed a light tick mark on the lower left lines, from the photo, that I didn't much notice upon looking at the coin.
1963-D
NGC Old Fattie Holder: MS66
My estimated PCGS grade: MS 66 FBL
PCGS grade: MS 66
This coin looks amazing, just like a proof. Maybe I undergraded
Broken record...another tick in the bell lines. Granted, these lines aren't real strong, but apparently there is little tolerance for disturbances on the bell lines.
SUMMARY
So, 9 for 10 in crossovers. A stunner 1958-D in NGC MS 67 did not cross. I don't know why not.
Depending on how you keep score 5 out of 10 upgraded.
The old NGC 66 is the new PCGS 66.
Eye appeal (or maybe call it market grading) has picked up a bit of weight.
FBL grading is tougher now.
Bonus selection, also crossed a nice Lincoln:
Comments
Congrats--nice looking Franklins!
Gonna get me a $50 Octagonal someday. Some. Day.
Very nice coins. Love the '63. You were pretty spot on.
Very nice lot... I personally love the reverse of the 49 D..... I have a strange attraction to streaky toners and wood grains though
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Thanks for posting. Every Franklin is a beauty to start out with.
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All very nice coins and thanks for posting your results.
Great success with your crossovers... I dig them all.... Stunning coins and that 49-D I wouldn`t doubt to be the very best toned 49-D on this planet! Then that 35 Lincoln has a wonderful color correct original look that I love... Beautiful! I would love to see the 58-D sometime... A fantastic presentation and a huge congratulations!
AB
Interesting post considering Benjamin Franklin died on 4/17/1790. Great looking group of coins but I'm partial to Lincolns.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Congratulations on the crossovers... you were pretty much spot on...FBL is a dicey area and inspires many disagreements.... Cheers, RickO
Excellent thread.
Enjoyed reading your comments on each.
Those are all great looking Franklins.
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Thanks for the pics & write-up. You've got an eye for nice Franklins!
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Very nice coins and congrats on the crossovers. Those coins now sparkle now that they have been freed fron those miserable slabs of mayonaise white.
"Just because you were born on 3rd base doesn't mean you hit a triple"
Beautiful Franklin's and a great post.
A few less "old fatties" in the world. Nice grouping of Frankies.
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Very nice results.
Terrific post. Wonderful Franklins (I don't think I have ever uttered that phrase before
) And a fine write up. Congrats on the results, but it is clear they were no surprise to you.
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Really nice coins (as Franklins go).
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Crossover as in their NGC holders or did you crack them prior to submission and submitted raw?
Thanks for sharing these. The FBL thing is nuts for about a yr now. The FBL standard should be stable but it is clearly not.
IIRC Bushmaster8 got ejected from these forums many years ago because he called HRH to task on the inconsistencies with FBLs, so some things never change I guess.
Great job on the cross overs, and great observations.
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Crack'in & Cross'in! Glad to see someone is paying heed.
Very nice run of Franklins. Thanks for sharing your experiences in crossing them.
Glad so many are enjoying the coins and comments.
To respond to a few comments:
Thank you. A little off the main topic, but AB caught something (not surprised) that hasn't gotten a lot of play - that the Lincoln has a color correct original look. Thin film interference is familiar to many when it comes to silver coins. But it is also applicable to copper coins as well. There is a natural progression of colors when interference of oxide and sulfide films appear on copper coins. The same principles of thin film interference can be applied in helping to determine whether toning on copper coins is natural. My experience has been that it is not as predictable as that of silver coins, but this Lincoln is a great example.
Looking at the obverse field from rim at the right and bottom and heading towards the center of the coin, this coin shows most of the colors in the progression from the early third order stage down to the early first order stage present on the device at the center of the coin.
With a track record like this, can I please follow you around at the next coin show with my check book?
What nice coins! You obviously had a great eye 20 years ago.
Since they usually error on the side of caution when grading through plastic, some of those beauties are probably still graded low, with the eye appeal bump.
Well done!
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Ronyahaski has one of the best Franklin eyes of anybody I know. It's a shame he kind of put them on the back burner for so long. But glad his interest in them is maybe rekindling.
Congrats... Well played
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I'm curious what would happened if you sent them all for crossover back to pcgs if some would get a higher grade.
And now a moment of silence for all of that beautiful plastic you killed...
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Ronyahski,
Great premise for a post, and set up just right so that we can develop actual empirical information regarding the NGC old Fatty vs. PCGS grudge match.
A couple observations.
1) Because I'm a lincoln guy I thought I'd be the only one to be drewling on the 35'. Cool coin, fresh color. Figures AB waded in on that, maybe AB's getting curious about copper
2) I hesitate to make this statement publicly but PCGS in the past year has been lenient with grades in economy submission but very very tough on designations (FBL, FB etc). I have not found that in regular submissions. The one piece to this puzzle you left out is "what submission level did you use"
3) Love love love these Franklins, and while I generally churn through them as apposed to keep them BUT I do love a toned coin. I'm seriously bummed your 58D didn't cross, it's stupid and should have. Next time. There are five coins in this group that I would not be done with, meaning I would still not be satisfied with the grade.
So it comes around again. That age old question that nobody has a definitive answer to (although opinions abound, no one has ever given a factual answer):
Are there different graders for economy tier vs Regular?
What a Beautiful lot of Franklins you have there! Congrats!
Love the 53 S! Thanks for sharing your Frankies. I love Frankies!!!
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Great looking Franklin's for sure
HAPPY COLLECTING
Well, sounds like this might blow your theory, but these coins were submitted Regular. They are over the $$$ limit for Economy. I think the grades were fine. And like I said, I thought several more coins deserved the FBL, and my reaction that they did not ranged from not terribly surprised (63-D) to shocked (52).
I've witnessed where graders sometimes have a tendency to trade-off between the grades and designations. I can't really speak to recent grading, but one instance stays in my mind.
I collected Full Step Jeffersons back in the 1970's (Yes, I really did). 25 years later, in 2002, I submitted two submission sheets full of 17 coins each Economy (back then a submission sheet was 17 coins) for the first time. They were randomly listed. One blue box of 17 came back with the grades I expected, but almost none of them received a Full Step designation. The other blue box of 17 got hammered on the grades, almost none that I expected, but almost all of them came back Full Steps. I have no idea how that happened, but that was an eye opener. I just think it is too difficult for coins with designations to be graded in an adequately consistent fashion that is beneficial to collectors.
Absolutely. This goes on then and now. I recently submitted a bunch of 1963 Franklins that were FBL (IMO). I was expecting MS64FBLs and probably a cpl of MS63FBL.
I was quite surprised when large majority of them came back graded MS65 non-FBL. Clearly the graders bumped up the grades on the coins they considered oh-s0-close to FBL.