Incuse Quarter and Half Eagles
stealer
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I just started purchasing some examples of these pieces after eyeing them longingly for many years on eBay. As some of you know, I have an affinity for purchasing raw pieces. The problem is that I have very little idea of how to detect counterfeits for these gold pieces.
Can anyone provide pickup points and common characteristics of counterfeits? Images of good and great counterfeits would be greatly appreciated as well.
As a starting point, here is a piece that I picked up recently that you are free to roast if it is a blatant counterfeit:
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I know nothing about counterfeit gold coins. There are some books on them by "Lonesome John Divine" and Bill Fivaz.
https://www.amazon.com/Detecting-Counterfeit-Gold-Coins-Book/dp/B009I3RSV4
I do not know how helpful these books will be, but if you are going to collect raw gold coins, I suggest you get them.
bob
These are heavily counterfeited. You're best bet would be to buy a certified example.
You can probably start by checking the weight.
PCGS Coinfacts has the weights: http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/8510
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I don't see anything that jumps out at me as to this coin being a counterfeit. But if I were you I would move forward VERY carefully.
Happy hunting
Looks legit to me. Careful going forward.
The counterfeits being produced today are so good that any defects would not be visible from a picture similar to the one being showed here. Most require close examination by an expert authenticator using a stereo microscope.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There are many counterfeits of these coins, and many more than have been whizzed, cleaned and otherwise "Improved" by coin doctors. My advice would be to buy certified coins and crack them out if you have to have them in the raw state. That is an expensive way to do it because you have to get them re-graded when the time comes to sell to get the best prices. All it takes is one or two counterfeits, especially in the wrong places (key dates), to lose more than enough money to have your coins re-graded. Ditto for pieces that have been improperly cleaned.
One of the counterfeit detecting areas used to be in the neck area in back of the Indian's tassel. If there were bumps and/or tool marks there, there was good reason to be suspicious of the piece.
Read the Fivaz book on gold counterfeits. Some are so well made that, as Bill points out above, the only way to spot them is by tiny tool marks on the dies that show up as raised "blems" or "spikes" on the coins.
I think I'm gonna learn from this thread
Steve
I have a raw 1909D I acquired many years ago (it is authentic) and in low MS condition... A personal favorite of mine. It is still in the 2x2 as purchased. Not sure why I never sent it in.... actually, it was lost for a couple of years (have told the story here before). I may submit it at some point... That coin may be the one coin in my collection that I pull out the most often to enjoy. Cheers, RickO
It is tough to buy these raw. A lot of high quality counterfeits have been pumped out of Lebanon back in the 80's and 90's. They were made of 90% gold too, so unless you know what too look for, you're going to have a difficult time.
We all have screw-ups and here is one of mine. I had this coin out of its case (It's in a Capital Plastics set holder.) out a few weeks ago. It was then that I noted the edge. This piece was mounted at the top at one time which knocks a couple hundred off the value. The problem is only visible from the obverse. This sort of thing was done to attach it to a piece of jewelry. I bought this piece over 30 years ago, so that's the way it goes.
The rest of coin is quite nice. This shows you how you can miss something.
As Bill pointed out, the back of the Indian's neck is a good place to check. There is a reason for this---it's the deepest part of the coin design. When the counterfeiter casts his false die using a genuine coin this is where any tiny air bubble would be trapped. These bubbles would show up on coins struck from this false die as tiny bumps that the counterfeiter would then try to eliminate by tooling this area of the die and would thus inadvertently create another diagnostic. Hope this helps.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thanks for all the tips guys. Does anyone have any high resolution images of really good counterfeits?
This sounds like an uphill battle even for somebody who buys raw Trade Dollars by the bushel
Mushy details and odd luster are my main ways to spot the good fakes.
The really bad fakes have an incorrect number of tail feathers.
Taken from a 2009 article by Mike Sargent:
"The single most counterfeited series of U.S. gold coins is the Indian Head Quarter Eagle. This series accounts for approximately 40% of all counterfeit gold coins received by PCGS..... First of all, one does not need a whole lot of gold to make these small coins [$1, $2.5, $3], allowing the counterfeiter to sell fakes at a lower price point to unsuspecting buyers. Also, these counterfeits sell for the highest premium above their intrinsic gold value when compared to any other series of gold coins....Every single date in the $2½ Indian series exists as a counterfeit. In fact, PCGS once received a complete set of fakes in a custom holder, quite an achievement by an unwitting collector!...Remember, most counterfeit $2½ "Indians" are of exceptional quality and are very hard for the novice to distinguish. Many of these counterfeit coins in Extremely Fine to near Mint condition have been tumbled in rock polishing machines or intentionally marked-up to disguise the few faults they contain in order to make them difficult to distinguish from genuine coins."
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
While Indian quarter eagles are certainly heavily counterfeited, I've see more counterfeit gold dollars and gold $3 coins in the marketplace. The numismatic value of these coins greatly exceeds the value of the gold used to make them which is why they're popular with the counterfeiters.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
AmazonX:
Yes, I agree with AmazonX. Collectors often fail to detect forgeries or coins that have been harmed via use in jewelry, as Mr. Jones notes.
I wrote two guides for collecting these for less than $500 per coin! Especially for quarter eagles, there are many options for collectors who are unwilling to spend as much as $500 for any one coin.
Classic U.S. Coins for less than $500 each, Part 16: Indian Head Half Eagles
Classic U.S. Coins less than $500 each, Part 13: Indian Head Quarter Eagles
We see a lot of counterfeit raw examples - some are easy to tell, others are very difficult - best to buy certified, especially lower grades (and even MS example) are great value at the moment.
(Lastly, they are also a difficult series to grade; another advantage with buying certified).
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