Pogue 1804 Dexter Dollar PCGS Proof-65 brings $3,290,000 - less than the 62 that brought over $3.7 m

WinLoseWin · March 31, 2017 4:53PM

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The Pogue 1804 Dexter Dollar PCGS Proof-65 brings $3,290,000 - which was less than the Proof-62 that brought over $3.7 million twice in the last decade or so.

Thought it might be a little stronger. It auctioned for $1,840,000 back in 2000.

Not sure what it says about the market yet.

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tradedollarnut · March 31, 2017 4:54PM

Cheap

jcping · March 31, 2017 4:58PM

Not sure the "D" chop mark on reverse impacts its price

earlyAurum · March 31, 2017 5:00PM

not cheap. inexpensive.

bigjpst · March 31, 2017 5:19PM

Maybe it needs a sticker to make it worth anything in this market.

This post is made in jest BTW

Zoins · March 31, 2017 5:42PM

Still within the estimated $3-$5 million dollar range.

MrEureka · March 31, 2017 5:59PM

Great deal. Congrats to the winner.

(And not for nothing, but JA at CRO is a pussy.)

SkyMan · March 31, 2017 6:22PM

Was the $3.29 million with or without commission included?

jcping · March 31, 2017 6:29PM

With, $2.8M + 17.5%

Sonorandesertrat · March 31, 2017 6:37PM

@MrEureka said:
Great deal. Congrats to the winner.

(And not for nothing, but JA at CRO is a pussy.)

LOL. Best one-liner wins! Paces, gentlemen............

CaptHenway · March 31, 2017 6:43PM

So how overgraded was THIS 1804 Dollar???

tradedollarnut · March 31, 2017 6:45PM

1.5 ....so better than par for the course

MrEureka · March 31, 2017 6:47PM

I graded this one 63+ over 65 minus, or 64 minus for the whole coin. Still the third finest known by a mile, and a bargain.

cameonut2011 · March 31, 2017 6:52PM

@CaptHenway said:
So how overgraded was THIS 1804 Dollar???

What, no sticker? The experts and numismatic elite have taught me that unless it is PCGS and CACed, it must be dreck. Too bad PCGS didn't slap it in a 63 holder, it might have stickered and done better. lol

cameonut2011 · March 31, 2017 6:53PM

On a serious note, this is concerning and says a lot about the larger market. It is a nice coin, the plastic and label notwithstanding, and the coin went for a (relatively) cheap price.

Zoins · March 31, 2017 7:15PM

Does anyone know the underbidder and why he or she didn't bid higher?

How many people are in the market for a coin like this?

CoinRaritiesOnline · March 31, 2017 7:20PM

@MrEureka said:
Great deal. Congrats to the winner.

(And not for nothing, but JA at CRO is a pussy.)

MrEureka is miffed that I refused to split this coin with him during dinner, but I contend that if he truly believed in it he should have grown a pair and bought it himself.

tradedollarnut · March 31, 2017 7:21PM

I bid $2M

I'm building a house so no higher

Zoins · March 31, 2017 7:27PM

Here's the TrueView:

And the Stack's slab images:

rmpsrpms · March 31, 2017 7:45PM

The very carefully-lit True View hides that exceptionally ugly fingerprint and the pockmark toning in prime focal areas that is revealed on the Stack's image. Just sayin.

Zoins · March 31, 2017 7:47PM

@rmpsrpms said:
The very carefully-lit True View hides that exceptionally ugly fingerprint and the pockmark toning in prime focal areas that is revealed on the Stack's image. Just sayin.

The eye appeal of the coin does seem to be limited from the slab photos.

Raufus · March 31, 2017 8:11PM

Was able to examine it w a loupe for 15 minutes today. The fingerprint is very noticeable.

The D is tiny and hard to see w unaided eye.

Raufus · March 31, 2017 8:13PM

@Zoins said:
Does anyone know the underbidder and why he or she didn't bid higher?

How many people are in the market for a coin like this?

No room bids.

MsMorrisine · March 31, 2017 8:25PM

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-6QOWX

10000lakes · March 31, 2017 8:43PM

I wonder how many holes will get filled in the Hansen set after tonight's auction?

Ronyahski · March 31, 2017 8:55PM

@cameonut2011 said:
On a serious note, this is concerning and says a lot about the larger market. It is a nice coin, the plastic and label notwithstanding, and the coin went for a (relatively) cheap price.

Check out the prices for the rest of the sale and see how concerned you still are.

Ronyahski · March 31, 2017 9:05PM

@MrEureka said:
I graded this one 63+ over 65 minus, or 64 minus for the whole coin. Still the third finest known by a mile, and a bargain.

I graded it exactly the same. Was pleasantly surprised, kind of liked the reverse.

caddyshack · March 31, 2017 9:39PM

no matter what it is a world famous rarity

cameonut2011 · March 31, 2017 10:06PM

@Raufus said:

@Zoins said:
Does anyone know the underbidder and why he or she didn't bid higher?

How many people are in the market for a coin like this?

No room bids.

In a real no reserve auction environment (no buy backs or house bids), I wonder what it would have sold for? Didn't they refuse to let an 1822 half eagle go in one of the older Pogue sales?

Coin Finder · March 31, 2017 10:48PM

The fingerprint bugs me otherwise i would have bid!!

privaterarecoincollector · April 1, 2017 1:57AM

it was so cheap I put a cut bid of 2.7 Mio hammer and ended up being the underbidder. I dont need the coin for my type set, but couldnt believe seeing it selling for this price. I think the coin should be worth 5 Mio.

Zoins · April 1, 2017 2:33AM

@privaterarecoincollector said:
it was so cheap I put a cut bid of 2.7 Mio hammer and ended up being the underbidder. I dont need the coin for my type set, but couldnt believe seeing it selling for this price. I think the coin should be worth 5 Mio.

Wow, so without your bid due to the low price, it would have been even lower.

privaterarecoincollector · April 1, 2017 3:48AM

@Zoins said:

@privaterarecoincollector said:
it was so cheap I put a cut bid of 2.7 Mio hammer and ended up being the underbidder. I dont need the coin for my type set, but couldnt believe seeing it selling for this price. I think the coin should be worth 5 Mio.

Wow, so without your bid due to the low price, it would have been even lower.

yes 230k lower

JohnF · April 1, 2017 4:29AM

Well, the 1811 half cent certainly came in strong @ $998k. I represented a client when this coin sold in the Missouri Cabinet collection ($1.12 million) and we chased the coin with Pogue for at least $300-400k and ended up as under-bidder. Fortunately for us, there was a second 1811 gem half cent in that sale so we bought that one for about $500k.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-6QP10

With these two bidders absent from this coin's reappearance, I am very pleased to see that it brought $998,750 last night. I thought $650k was possible. My first glance at APR's from last night looks quite healthy for great collector coins. Keep in mind that the1804 dollar, in general, is a strange coin from the perspective of traditional collectors. It's famous for sure, but it was struck well after 1804; it's not a business strike (how many collectors of proof Bust dollar truly exist??) and it's 7-figures.

Decades ago the 1804 dollar and 1913 nickels were crown jewels in the U.S. catalog, but now that mantle appears to be slowly shifting to "real" issues. The 1794 dollar, for example, is rising steadily, not least of which because these coins truly circulated at the time of their mintage and collectors today own them in a variety of grades giving them the goal of owning better examples over time. @tradedollarnut and others have been at the forefront of this trend.

Congrats to Stacks for their successful sale. I look forward to poring through the results over the next few days.

291fifth · April 1, 2017 5:37AM

I wonder if the allure of the 1804 dollar is starting to wear off. Interest may be shifting elsewhere.

ricko · April 1, 2017 5:45AM

These are significant prices, and then to see many knowledgeable members say it went cheap is amazing.
I would have bid, but I am saving for a new firearm (an Abrams Tank - ).....Cheers, RickO

tradedollarnut · April 1, 2017 6:46AM

@291fifth said:
I wonder if the allure of the 1804 dollar is starting to wear off. Interest may be shifting elsewhere.

The new trend is specialized set building (thanks, Registry!). The 1804 is an orphan coin in that regard. It doesn't belong in a bust dollar set...and even the other proof dates don't truly belong with it.

The King is dead, long live the King!

privaterarecoincollector · April 1, 2017 6:58AM

@tradedollarnut said:

@291fifth said:
I wonder if the allure of the 1804 dollar is starting to wear off. Interest may be shifting elsewhere.

The new trend is specialized set building (thanks, Registry!). The 1804 is an orphan coin in that regard. It doesn't belong in a bust dollar set...and even the other proof dates don't truly belong with it.

The King is dead, long live the King!

couldnt explain it better !

jcping · April 1, 2017 7:24AM

Well, this 1804 bust dollar can fill a hole in this set registry, Ten Most Famous United States Ultra Rarities

https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/u-s-coins/famous-u-s-coins/ten-most-famous-united-states-ultra-rarities/978

tradedollarnut · April 1, 2017 7:28AM

Simpson is only 40%. That about says it all! ;-)

Zoins · April 1, 2017 8:53AM

@tradedollarnut said:

@291fifth said:
I wonder if the allure of the 1804 dollar is starting to wear off. Interest may be shifting elsewhere.

The new trend is specialized set building (thanks, Registry!). The 1804 is an orphan coin in that regard. It doesn't belong in a bust dollar set...and even the other proof dates don't truly belong with it.

The King is dead, long live the King!

So the Registry is the King Maker now.

The Red Book is dead, long live the Registry!

tradedollarnut · April 1, 2017 9:11AM

What's a Red Book?

oih82w8 · April 1, 2017 9:18AM

I guess that it is all in the timing of the auction.

Zoins · April 1, 2017 9:18AM

@jcping said:
Not sure the "D" chop mark on reverse impacts its price

I was thinking this too. Perhaps your name needs to have a capital "D" to truly enjoy the coin

Here are some:

James Vila Dexter
William Forrester Dunham
D. Brent Pogue

Here are some others discussed for this coin:

David Stone, co-author
Dan Hamelberg, numismatic literature specialist
David Fanning
Charles Davis
Douglas Saville

Justacommeman · April 1, 2017 10:55AM

@Ronyahski said:

@cameonut2011 said:
On a serious note, this is concerning and says a lot about the larger market. It is a nice coin, the plastic and label notwithstanding, and the coin went for a (relatively) cheap price.

Check out the prices for the rest of the sale and see how concerned you still are.

Ya pretty much everything else went higher then anticipated. Some astounding. This coin was the only real bargain. An amazing finish to the Pogue sale.

JK can come out and play now. I miss him

mark

cameonut2011 · April 1, 2017 11:52AM

@Justacommeman said:

@Ronyahski said:

@cameonut2011 said:
On a serious note, this is concerning and says a lot about the larger market. It is a nice coin, the plastic and label notwithstanding, and the coin went for a (relatively) cheap price.

Check out the prices for the rest of the sale and see how concerned you still are.

Ya pretty much everything else went higher then anticipated. Some astounding. This coin was the only real bargain. An amazing finish to the Pogue sale.

JK can come out and play now. I miss him

mark

Why do you think this went so "cheaply?"

Justacommeman · April 1, 2017 12:42PM

@cameonut2011 said:

@Justacommeman said:

@Ronyahski said:

@cameonut2011 said:
On a serious note, this is concerning and says a lot about the larger market. It is a nice coin, the plastic and label notwithstanding, and the coin went for a (relatively) cheap price.

Check out the prices for the rest of the sale and see how concerned you still are.

Ya pretty much everything else went higher then anticipated. Some astounding. This coin was the only real bargain. An amazing finish to the Pogue sale.

JK can come out and play now. I miss him

mark

Why do you think this went so "cheaply?"

I don't compete in this rarified air. TDN's view.

In the end, the bargain of the show turned out to be the famous $1 1804. Yes, it really did sell! It bought $3,290,000.00. Bruce Morelan summed it up the best about the 1804: The new trend is specialized set building (thanks, Registry!). The 1804 is an orphan coin in that regard. It doesn’t belong in a bust dollar set…and even the other proof dates don’t truly belong with it. -

Wabbit2313 · April 1, 2017 1:03PM

I agree, the trueview is strikingly better than the real image.

Nap · April 1, 2017 1:29PM

Should it really be in a straight graded holder?

The stamped 'D' is of course part of the coin's history, but I think the question is worth considering.

roadrunner · April 1, 2017 1:57PM

I understand the impact of REG sets, complete sets, regular mint issues, etc. And JA and KL who are probably 2 of the best evaluators of the value of major rarities for the past 30 years are not unaware of these market forces. It still comes down to the coin itself and its place in numismatics. There's always going to be a prominent place for a PF 1804 silver dollar....especially 3rd finest known. Registry sets will not always rule the coin market. They are having their time in the sun...enjoy it. Things will eventually shift in another direction. The box of "20" (or even 40 or 60 or?) concept suggested by Jay Parrino and Maurice Rosen still has a solid place in our markets.

MrEureka · April 2, 2017 12:30PM

@tradedollarnut said:

@291fifth said:
I wonder if the allure of the 1804 dollar is starting to wear off. Interest may be shifting elsewhere.

The new trend is specialized set building (thanks, Registry!). The 1804 is an orphan coin in that regard. It doesn't belong in a bust dollar set...and even the other proof dates don't truly belong with it.

The King is dead, long live the King!

There's certainly some truth to this. However, other factors probably had a bigger impact. For starters, one or more of the relatively few potential buyers may have had his heart set on the unsold Childs coin, and might have had trouble getting excited about buying the inferior Dexter coin. (If the Childs coin had never been offered, I'll bet the Dexter coin would have brought a significantly higher price.) Another factor is the pure randomness of thin markets. There just aren't that many buyers for multi-million dollar coins, and that makes auction results far less predictable than for less expensive coins.

In any event, we've at least resolved one debate that has been going on on this forum for many years. It is possible for a classic rarity to decline in value.

Pogue 1804 Dexter Dollar PCGS Proof-65 brings $3,290,000 - less than the 62 that brought over $3.7 m

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