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Pogue 1804 Dexter Dollar PCGS Proof-65 brings $3,290,000 - less than the 62 that brought over $3.7 m

WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

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The Pogue 1804 Dexter Dollar PCGS Proof-65 brings $3,290,000 - which was less than the Proof-62 that brought over $3.7 million twice in the last decade or so.

Thought it might be a little stronger. It auctioned for $1,840,000 back in 2000.

Not sure what it says about the market yet.

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"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

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Comments

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭

    Not sure the "D" chop mark on reverse impacts its price :grimace:

    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • earlyAurumearlyAurum Posts: 718 ✭✭✭✭✭

    not cheap. inexpensive.

  • bigjpstbigjpst Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe it needs a sticker to make it worth anything in this market. :*

    This post is made in jest BTW

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2017 5:42PM

    Still within the estimated $3-$5 million dollar range.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great deal. Congrats to the winner.

    (And not for nothing, but JA at CRO is a pussy.)

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • SkyManSkyMan Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Was the $3.29 million with or without commission included?

  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭

    With, $2.8M + 17.5%

    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    Great deal. Congrats to the winner.

    (And not for nothing, but JA at CRO is a pussy.)

    LOL. Best one-liner wins! Paces, gentlemen............

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So how overgraded was THIS 1804 Dollar???

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2017 9:45PM

    1.5 ....so better than par for the course

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I graded this one 63+ over 65 minus, or 64 minus for the whole coin. Still the third finest known by a mile, and a bargain.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    So how overgraded was THIS 1804 Dollar???

    What, no sticker? The experts and numismatic elite have taught me that unless it is PCGS and CACed, it must be dreck. Too bad PCGS didn't slap it in a 63 holder, it might have stickered and done better. lol

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    On a serious note, this is concerning and says a lot about the larger market. It is a nice coin, the plastic and label notwithstanding, and the coin went for a (relatively) cheap price.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2017 7:15PM

    Does anyone know the underbidder and why he or she didn't bid higher?

    How many people are in the market for a coin like this?

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I bid $2M

    I'm building a house so no higher

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2017 7:35PM

    Here's the TrueView:

    And the Stack's slab images:

  • rmpsrpmsrmpsrpms Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The very carefully-lit True View hides that exceptionally ugly fingerprint and the pockmark toning in prime focal areas that is revealed on the Stack's image. Just sayin.

    PM me for coin photography equipment, or visit my website:

    http://macrocoins.com
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rmpsrpms said:
    The very carefully-lit True View hides that exceptionally ugly fingerprint and the pockmark toning in prime focal areas that is revealed on the Stack's image. Just sayin.

    The eye appeal of the coin does seem to be limited from the slab photos.

  • RaufusRaufus Posts: 6,784 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2017 8:12PM

    Was able to examine it w a loupe for 15 minutes today. The fingerprint is very noticeable.

    The D is tiny and hard to see w unaided eye.

    Land of the Free because of the Brave!
  • RaufusRaufus Posts: 6,784 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Does anyone know the underbidder and why he or she didn't bid higher?

    How many people are in the market for a coin like this?

    No room bids.

    Land of the Free because of the Brave!
  • 10000lakes10000lakes Posts: 811 ✭✭✭✭

    I wonder how many holes will get filled in the Hansen set after tonight's auction?

  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    On a serious note, this is concerning and says a lot about the larger market. It is a nice coin, the plastic and label notwithstanding, and the coin went for a (relatively) cheap price.

    Check out the prices for the rest of the sale and see how concerned you still are.

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    I graded this one 63+ over 65 minus, or 64 minus for the whole coin. Still the third finest known by a mile, and a bargain.

    I graded it exactly the same. Was pleasantly surprised, kind of liked the reverse.

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • caddyshackcaddyshack Posts: 115 ✭✭

    no matter what it is a world famous rarity

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Raufus said:

    @Zoins said:
    Does anyone know the underbidder and why he or she didn't bid higher?

    How many people are in the market for a coin like this?

    No room bids.

    In a real no reserve auction environment (no buy backs or house bids), I wonder what it would have sold for? Didn't they refuse to let an 1822 half eagle go in one of the older Pogue sales?

  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The fingerprint bugs me otherwise i would have bid!!

  • privaterarecoincollectorprivaterarecoincollector Posts: 629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    it was so cheap I put a cut bid of 2.7 Mio hammer and ended up being the underbidder. I dont need the coin for my type set, but couldnt believe seeing it selling for this price. I think the coin should be worth 5 Mio.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @privaterarecoincollector said:
    it was so cheap I put a cut bid of 2.7 Mio hammer and ended up being the underbidder. I dont need the coin for my type set, but couldnt believe seeing it selling for this price. I think the coin should be worth 5 Mio.

    Wow, so without your bid due to the low price, it would have been even lower.

  • privaterarecoincollectorprivaterarecoincollector Posts: 629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @privaterarecoincollector said:
    it was so cheap I put a cut bid of 2.7 Mio hammer and ended up being the underbidder. I dont need the coin for my type set, but couldnt believe seeing it selling for this price. I think the coin should be worth 5 Mio.

    Wow, so without your bid due to the low price, it would have been even lower.

    yes 230k lower

  • JohnFJohnF Posts: 273 ✭✭✭✭

    Well, the 1811 half cent certainly came in strong @ $998k. I represented a client when this coin sold in the Missouri Cabinet collection ($1.12 million) and we chased the coin with Pogue for at least $300-400k and ended up as under-bidder. Fortunately for us, there was a second 1811 gem half cent in that sale so we bought that one for about $500k.

    https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-6QP10

    With these two bidders absent from this coin's reappearance, I am very pleased to see that it brought $998,750 last night. I thought $650k was possible. My first glance at APR's from last night looks quite healthy for great collector coins. Keep in mind that the1804 dollar, in general, is a strange coin from the perspective of traditional collectors. It's famous for sure, but it was struck well after 1804; it's not a business strike (how many collectors of proof Bust dollar truly exist??) and it's 7-figures.

    Decades ago the 1804 dollar and 1913 nickels were crown jewels in the U.S. catalog, but now that mantle appears to be slowly shifting to "real" issues. The 1794 dollar, for example, is rising steadily, not least of which because these coins truly circulated at the time of their mintage and collectors today own them in a variety of grades giving them the goal of owning better examples over time. @tradedollarnut and others have been at the forefront of this trend.

    Congrats to Stacks for their successful sale. I look forward to poring through the results over the next few days.

    John Feigenbaum
    Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
    PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder if the allure of the 1804 dollar is starting to wear off. Interest may be shifting elsewhere.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These are significant prices, and then to see many knowledgeable members say it went cheap is amazing.
    I would have bid, but I am saving for a new firearm (an Abrams Tank - :D ).....Cheers, RickO

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    I wonder if the allure of the 1804 dollar is starting to wear off. Interest may be shifting elsewhere.

    The new trend is specialized set building (thanks, Registry!). The 1804 is an orphan coin in that regard. It doesn't belong in a bust dollar set...and even the other proof dates don't truly belong with it.

    The King is dead, long live the King!

  • privaterarecoincollectorprivaterarecoincollector Posts: 629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:

    @291fifth said:
    I wonder if the allure of the 1804 dollar is starting to wear off. Interest may be shifting elsewhere.

    The new trend is specialized set building (thanks, Registry!). The 1804 is an orphan coin in that regard. It doesn't belong in a bust dollar set...and even the other proof dates don't truly belong with it.

    The King is dead, long live the King!

    couldnt explain it better !

  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭

    Well, this 1804 bust dollar can fill a hole in this set registry, Ten Most Famous United States Ultra Rarities :)

    https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/u-s-coins/famous-u-s-coins/ten-most-famous-united-states-ultra-rarities/978

    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Simpson is only 40%. That about says it all! ;-)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2017 8:54AM

    @tradedollarnut said:

    @291fifth said:
    I wonder if the allure of the 1804 dollar is starting to wear off. Interest may be shifting elsewhere.

    The new trend is specialized set building (thanks, Registry!). The 1804 is an orphan coin in that regard. It doesn't belong in a bust dollar set...and even the other proof dates don't truly belong with it.

    The King is dead, long live the King!

    So the Registry is the King Maker now.

    The Red Book is dead, long live the Registry! ;)

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What's a Red Book? ;)

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,869 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I guess that it is all in the timing of the auction.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug...
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2017 9:27AM

    @jcping said:
    Not sure the "D" chop mark on reverse impacts its price :grimace:

    I was thinking this too. Perhaps your name needs to have a capital "D" to truly enjoy the coin ;)

    Here are some:

    • James Vila Dexter
    • William Forrester Dunham
    • D. Brent Pogue

    Here are some others discussed for this coin:

    • David Stone, co-author
    • Dan Hamelberg, numismatic literature specialist
    • David Fanning
    • Charles Davis
    • Douglas Saville
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2017 10:58AM

    @Ronyahski said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    On a serious note, this is concerning and says a lot about the larger market. It is a nice coin, the plastic and label notwithstanding, and the coin went for a (relatively) cheap price.

    Check out the prices for the rest of the sale and see how concerned you still are.

    Ya pretty much everything else went higher then anticipated. Some astounding. This coin was the only real bargain. An amazing finish to the Pogue sale.

    JK can come out and play now. I miss him

    mark

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Justacommeman said:

    @Ronyahski said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    On a serious note, this is concerning and says a lot about the larger market. It is a nice coin, the plastic and label notwithstanding, and the coin went for a (relatively) cheap price.

    Check out the prices for the rest of the sale and see how concerned you still are.

    Ya pretty much everything else went higher then anticipated. Some astounding. This coin was the only real bargain. An amazing finish to the Pogue sale.

    JK can come out and play now. I miss him

    mark

    Why do you think this went so "cheaply?"

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Justacommeman said:

    @Ronyahski said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    On a serious note, this is concerning and says a lot about the larger market. It is a nice coin, the plastic and label notwithstanding, and the coin went for a (relatively) cheap price.

    Check out the prices for the rest of the sale and see how concerned you still are.

    Ya pretty much everything else went higher then anticipated. Some astounding. This coin was the only real bargain. An amazing finish to the Pogue sale.

    JK can come out and play now. I miss him

    mark

    Why do you think this went so "cheaply?"

    I don't compete in this rarified air. TDN's view.

    In the end, the bargain of the show turned out to be the famous $1 1804. Yes, it really did sell! It bought $3,290,000.00. Bruce Morelan summed it up the best about the 1804: The new trend is specialized set building (thanks, Registry!). The 1804 is an orphan coin in that regard. It doesn’t belong in a bust dollar set…and even the other proof dates don’t truly belong with it. -

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree, the trueview is strikingly better than the real image.

  • NapNap Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Should it really be in a straight graded holder?

    The stamped 'D' is of course part of the coin's history, but I think the question is worth considering.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2017 1:59PM

    I understand the impact of REG sets, complete sets, regular mint issues, etc. And JA and KL who are probably 2 of the best evaluators of the value of major rarities for the past 30 years are not unaware of these market forces. It still comes down to the coin itself and its place in numismatics. There's always going to be a prominent place for a PF 1804 silver dollar....especially 3rd finest known. Registry sets will not always rule the coin market. They are having their time in the sun...enjoy it. Things will eventually shift in another direction. The box of "20" (or even 40 or 60 or?) concept suggested by Jay Parrino and Maurice Rosen still has a solid place in our markets.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:

    @291fifth said:
    I wonder if the allure of the 1804 dollar is starting to wear off. Interest may be shifting elsewhere.

    The new trend is specialized set building (thanks, Registry!). The 1804 is an orphan coin in that regard. It doesn't belong in a bust dollar set...and even the other proof dates don't truly belong with it.

    The King is dead, long live the King!

    There's certainly some truth to this. However, other factors probably had a bigger impact. For starters, one or more of the relatively few potential buyers may have had his heart set on the unsold Childs coin, and might have had trouble getting excited about buying the inferior Dexter coin. (If the Childs coin had never been offered, I'll bet the Dexter coin would have brought a significantly higher price.) Another factor is the pure randomness of thin markets. There just aren't that many buyers for multi-million dollar coins, and that makes auction results far less predictable than for less expensive coins.

    In any event, we've at least resolved one debate that has been going on on this forum for many years. It is possible for a classic rarity to decline in value.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

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