Question about Legend's latest market report
Gazes
Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
Read the legend market report today and it stated legend would be agressively buying. The report than said what legend did not like ---it said "we do NOT like dirty gold." Then it said "luster and flash are everything" ( I can not tell if this comment was just about proof coins or gold too).
I like legend's coins and especially their gold. Given their inventory is only CAC , I was surprised that they were adamant about not liking dirty gold (I associate original gold/CAC with dirty gold). What am I missing ?
0
Comments
you are missing nothing really, they just like to write this way. Doesnt mean anything.
link...
legendnumismatics.com/market-reports/early-spring-report/
In disguise? Really? Lol
@tradedollarnut
Dealers specialize. Legend caters to a certain collector with a certain look to their coins. Their coins tend to be flashy and Dirty Old Gold coins (affectionately known as DOGs) are not. No problem if you like DOGs, just go to Doug Winter
Correct Zions. You don't see a lot of circulated branch mint gold on their site. They don't specialize in it. They don't like it and that's not their jam.
The nice thing about coins is their is something for everybody
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Not surprised, many prefer flashy gold with nice luster including myself.
Some dealers do better than others. That's business.
@jcping What do you disagree with above?
The following is from Doug's website showing his affection for DOGs.
It never ceases to amaze that despite my generation (millennials) being accused of being the touchy ones. You'll just love to get rubbed the wrong way if some person/dealer/collector happens to post something different from what you believe and feel the need to tell the world about it. I'm not at all saying it shouldn't happen or isn't educational in some respects, but really.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
They have virtually unlimited buying ability, but want the high grade rarities, not high grade common coins or low grade rarities. Only PCGS and cac. Serving millionaires and billionaires.
Jealousy rears its ugly head.
No problem with me if they don;t like dirty gold provided they aren't turing dirty coins into bright ones.
Latin American Collection
This makes the most sense to me. When I posted my OP, it wasn't meant to be critical in anyway. I know legend only retails CAC coins. I associate CAC gold coins with originality. I associate dirty gold with originality. So I was trying to reconcile her report. That being said, justcommeman's post makes sense. Branch gold is rarely stickered and if it is it won't be flashy. If legend doesn't sell much branch gold I understand the report better
Somebody else is writting it. Or editing it. I liked it more before. The lady's got grit. Straight shooter. From the hip. Where did she go? Please Laura, come back. I miss you.
Always love those reports! And updates too!
Who can keep dirty gold on the shelf anyway?
She's still writing it. Perhaps you're thinking of the Hot Topics?
The old reports have been heavily edited. Even though there are still grammatical errors, at least you can now understand what she is saying without having to reread it three times. That's not a throw off on her. I don't do well typing from a cell phone or tablet either, which is why I don't use those for professional communications in writing.
I think she is still around and doing well. The tone of the writing is the same as are the ideas. It just looks like she sat down at a nice desktop computer or laptop.
I like aggressively buying as a strategy right now. Works for me.
New editor most likely has auto correct and grammar correction.
My Type Set & My Complete Proof Nickel Set!
Gazes:
This point is very important to me and to dedicated numismatists who strongly favor originality, mostly because Gazes' statement is misleading in a factual sense. JA does not view dipping as a bad activity. In his mind, dipping increases the grade of a coin in many cases and reduces it in others, or the post-dip grade is the same as the pre-dip grade in JA's view.
For years, I have been trying to discourage people from dipping coins for logical, traditional and cultural reasons. Of course, I know that opinions are involved and I do not expect to persuade most numismatists to strongly favor originality.
I have argued the point with JA on many occasions. Once, we spent more than a half hour arguing about dipping. I will never change his mind. He is a believer in dipping. There are literally thousands of dipped gold coins, from all eras, that have CAC stickers.
I am NOT saying that dipped coins should be precluded from receiving CAC stickers. If Gazes is implying as much, he is being ridiculous. A large percentage of 19th century gold coins have been dipped. I am saying that dipping is usually a negative factor, not a positive factor, in my view, not in JA's view. It is often true that a dipped gold coin that JA grades MS-66 would only be graded MS-65 by me. This is due to a difference in philosophy
Also, if I was advising a buyer, I would tell the buyer that the coin has been dipped. Regarding gold coins, are Winter and I the only two coin people who disclose such information?
Alternately, even if I agree that a CAC stickered, recently dipped gold coin merits a MS-64 grade, I would personally prefer another MS-64 gold coin of the same type and date that has not been dipped or was not dipped in many decades.
As it is difficult to tell from images whether a gold coin has been dipped, to illustrate this difference in philosophy, it might be better for the readers of this forum to view many of the blatantly dipped silver coins that have received CAC stickers. Hundreds or possibly thousands can be found in HA and SBG auction archives, bright-white silver coins that are more than 100 years old!
Understanding Classic U.S. Coins and Building Excellent Coin Collections, Part 2: Dipped Coins
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 3
Legend follows minute part of coin market...like .01 % ,but very good quality ,with spot on coin descriptions
for the other 99.9 % of coins .. you decide
Count me as a dedicated numismatist who strongly agrees with Analyst's views. Maybe dipping increases the grade of a coin in many cases, but it decreases the desirability of owning the coin in my view.
One quick case in point - a few years ago I was prepared to bid strong on a coin in a major auction. It was proof gold coin from the 1830s formerly in the Pittman collection. Before the auction, the coin was reholdered in the same grade. But during the reholdering it took a slight dip to reduce some copper spots on the coin and otherwise ever so slightly changed the overall appearance of the coin. No doubt I was in the minority because I preferred the old coin with the copper spots. Caused me to reduce my bid by 2 notches and as a result I didn't win the coin, even though I really could have used it to round out my collection. The coin had a green bean.
I've seen bright white silver coins, or processed shipwreck gold that get the green bean, which are coins I would not add to my collection. I would not hesitate to add deeply and richly toned original silver coins to my collection, which likely would not get the green bean.
On the flip side, my experience is that CAC is stringent on gold coins that have even a hint of unoriginal toning. I love toned gold and admittedly have an affinity for it, so my comment about CAC being stringent is likely a bit biased. This is the area that I listen to CAC most closely.
Point is, I have never associated the green bean with originality.
Thank you Analyst for your thoughts. I found many of the comments helpful given my OP and questions. Let me say one thing. I know you have taken some criticism on the message boards lately. I enjoy you opinions even if I disagree. I am on these boards to expand my knowledge. However, I think you would get your message out there better if you were more careful on how you express yourself. Two examples:
1) You say "mostly Gazes statement is misleading in a factual sense." I didn't make any statement--I gave my own simple opinion that in my mind I associate CAC with originality. Using the term that I made a misleading statement when I simply posed a question in my OP and then tried to explain my thought process may unnecessarily get peoples fur up.
2) You say "I am not saying dipped coins should be precluded from receiving a sticker. If Gazes is implying as much, he is being ridiculous". I am not sure where you even come up with that I am implying anything? No one wants to be called "ridiculous" and certainly for not something that is manufactured out of thin air. Putting "if" in front of it doesn't really help. What would be wrong with simply stopping after the first sentence and not throw in the second sentence? You would make the exact same point without needlessly name calling on something that I never said or implied (how could I have been implying what you said when you weren't even part of this thread?)
Anyway, Analyst there are no hard feelings here and I do appreciate your input. I did want to point out that some of your posts can be less inflammatory and make the same point. As to this thread, again my main surprise was that Legend said they did not like old dirty good and I wanted to hear comments on this especially with Legend only retailing CAC gold. The responses have been very helpful. Thank you everyone.
Nice post Gazes
Latin American Collection
As I have evolved into somewhat of a "gold bug," I too am not a fan of "dirty gold." I am a fan of original surface gold, and that can coppery toning which when mixed with the gold color can be very beautiful.
In most cases, I prefer my gold coins to be as close their original look as possible. I prefer this look even on lightly circulated pieces. That is why I almost never buy U.S. gold in grades less than AU, and the only pieces that I have in less than AU grade EF-45. Pieces that have a gritty look to them do not please me, but when one is collecting pieces from the Charlotte and Dahlonega Mints, sometimes that is all that is available.
As a collector you need recognize the characteristics of the item in question. If you fail to do that and try to force the issue by collecting only items that have a certain look, you are opening yourself up to coins that have processed or even to counterfeits.
So far as dipping goes, I am not a fan of it because I think that it has been massively over done. I do recognize, however, that there are instances where it is necessary and even desirable. If I had my way very few coins would ever be dipped, but I am opposed to what some would call a 100% ban on it. A few coins can benefit from a judicious dip from the aspects of eye appeal and preservation.
Interesting that Legend doesn't like “dirty” gold. Which would make sense for say the $20 1907 High Relief PCGS CAC Wire Edge MS66-67 they are looking for....such as no copper spots or unsightly crust that takes away from the flash. But on their want list they also have a $10 1795 PCGS AU55-58 PCGS CAC and ALL BETTER GOLD- ALL AU55 and higher PCGS CAC gold from 1795 to 1933! It might seem they would prefer "headlight" or flashy gold than crusty original pieces with spotting, rust stains, and/or thick dirt in the devices, etc.
http://www.legendnumismatics.com/product/5-1800-pcgs-xf45-2/
Crusty or not?
That want list on that market report is hard to fill for multiple reasons. They are looking for the highest graded/quality coins possible among their peers, without problems, freshest to the market (ideally 10 yrs or more since last appearance), preferably PCGS and already stickered, and yet buyable enough for them to be able to pass along to their clients. In many cases such "fresh" coins are hard for their owner/sellers to value in today's world following their 10+ yr vacations. Who wouldn't want to be 1st in such a line to make an offer? And no doubt "ALL" dealers love to be able to buy "fresh" coins at their offer price. Funds available to buy such coins are probably "unlimited," or in the hundreds of $MILLs to $BILLs.
As RR also points out, I have yet to meet a coin dealer who is NOT "aggressively buying coins" they can make quick money on.
Legend will handle toned AU silver, esp. rare dates, but for whatever reason their gold clients are not into a similar "look".
Yes, you are correct.
Gazes:
Agreed, I should have communicated my points in a warmer and calmer manner. I was frustrated yesterday for multiple reasons. Before reading this thread, I was reading another current thread where it was clear that a few long term veterans of this forum did not know definitions of coin doctoring or of dipping, and were thus spinning their wheels while very important issues could have been discussed in a productive manner.
A second reason is that I had seen some disappointing coins while viewing auction lots yesterday. ( I also saw some fabulous coins.) A third reason is that this thread reminded me that I have failed to persuade JA, and some others who I know and respect, that dipping usually does much more harm than good, and is generally a harmful activity.
I believe that dipping is harmful in multiple ways, one of which is that the toning pattern on a coin often plays a role in pedigree research and in tying coins in the present to important collections in the past. Dipping removes metal and chemically bound substances from a coin, and often brings about an artificial brightness. Many of the characteristics of a coin are being changed in an instant.
Privately, I have tried, and perhaps failed, to explain CAC policies to Gazes. This was another source of frustration. It may be a good idea for him to talk to JA directly.
My first post to this thread was not intended to be inflammatory. It was intended to be aggressive, partly because I find that aggressive arguments are sometimes needed to encourage people to keep central facts in mind and to consider views that were not previously addressed in their own respective minds. One of the most appreciated compliments that I have ever received about my articles is that they are "thought provoking."
In order to debate policies, opinions, and philosophical views, there is a need to establish underlying facts, a baseline so that discussions build rather than revolving in circles.
Gazes' remark, , is an indication of a viewpoint in his mind, not a question. Moreover, such an association, when publicly revealed, is misleading, as JA often stickers coins that he knows have been dipped recently or not all that long ago. Additionally, JA does not regard dipping as a bad activity. Again, we are here referring to a difference in philosophy. While coin doctoring is clearly wrong, dipping is a matter about which honorable people have widely divergent views.
Defining Coin Doctoring and Dipping, Additions to the PCGS Lawsuit Against Alleged Coin Doctors in 2010, which never made it to trial; it was not proven in court that the defendants engaged in wrongdoing.
Understanding Classic U.S. Coins and Building Excellent Coin Collections, Part 2: Dipped Coins
Additionally, JA does not regard dipping as a bad activity.
To be more precise, he does not regard PROPER dipping as a bad activity. Overdipping, or dipping of copper will certainly get the red flag from JA.
Legend is a very experience marketer of US coins. If they say they don't want "dirty gold" it tells you something about the demand for such coins. While "dirty gold" seems to enjoy popularity on this forum that may not translate to business in the wider marketplace.
To be more precise, he does not regard PROPER dipping as a bad activity. Overdipping, or dipping of copper will certainly get the red flag from JA.
+1 ...and poorly done and incompletely rinsed dipping as well.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Nah. In fact, I bet many of your coins have been dipped somewhere in the past and you don't even know it
I think that most branch mint gold specialists would be advocates of dirty gold
Latin American Collection
Market commentary can be misplaced... Even disturbing. Dirty gold has its place and that not going to change.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I think the "dirty" Liberty Seated, Bust, and Barber coin collectors are right there with the dirty gold collectors.
Why doesn't someone just ask Laura for further explanation? As I'm her customer I'll recuse myself.... I also don't care....
I love Laura's market reports...loved this phase she used in the last report: "junk wholesale flea market type scrums"
Analyst - thanks for your post...learned a lot from many posts in this thread...Gazes thanks for starting it...
"Dirty gold" is typically associated with circulated gold and Legend does not have a following for this niche, and they have not chosen to build a following for this niche, the way they do for gem type. Gem gold is much easier to find flashy and lustrous and has a much greater following than finding the very infrequently encountered "dirty gem". It makes complete sense to me and does not infer either selling processes gold or stating one hates original gold.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Well said, TomB.
Dirty old gold in my mind has a lot to do with southern branch mint gold. Probably could also be used for territorial gold. Legend doesn't specialize in either as far as I know. Doug Winter and the Regulator would probably be better places for such.
Far more interesting to me was the "partner" ( I assume TDN) being happy with a slightly smaller inventory but Legend being locked and loaded for upcoming auctions. Man I wish I had time to go to Balty.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I associate CAC coins with whatever the consortium wishes to market, and this may change from time to time. I bought the coin below from Legend five years ago--it came out of the Littlejohn Collection, which was curiously auctioned by a firm primarily known for stamp auctions. Is the coin uncirculated? No. Is the coin rare? Not really. Does it have a 'processed' look? No, and it has a CAC green bean. Is it fresh? Yes, whatever that baloney means.
Will CAC make a 'fair' wholesale bid should I decide to offer it to them? Who knows, but I am not counting on it. Better to collect coins than marketing hype. Just try not to be the 'greater fool' too often.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I like the attitude as much as the coin!