@roadrunner said:
I described last week a series of auction buy backs by one dealer on a gem 1851 half. That coin went to auction 4-5X times over a period of 1-2 years, each time failing to sell. I could only surmise that the dealer did enough business with the auction house as to have a 0% buy back on any coins they supplied to them. It helps to fill up the auction for them. And when the coin wasn't in an auction, it was brought back to inventory until the next auction occurred. So figure anything can happen with reserves/buy backs based on what is negotiated between the house and their consignors. I would think that dealer consignors who can routinely bring $50K or more several times per year would be given more "favorable" terms.
On my last several auction contracts between 2 different major auction houses, I NEVER paid a buy back fee or any commission for a lot that didn't meet reserve. A 0% BB was penned into my contracts. That was the intent of setting a tight reserve agreed to by the house. If you're already setting up the coin to likely sell at "wholesale" levels, then getting hit with another 3-5% fee for spinning your wheels makes no sense to me. The higher reserves you set, which increases the odds the coin might not sell, the more likely the house will want some sort of a commission/BBF for any lots not selling.
You can get whatever you want into your contract if it works for you and the auction house. On one contract for 2 coins only totaling about $40K estimate, I had 0% BB, tight reserves, platinum night only, LB-summer ANA-FUN shows only, full page exposure on one lot - 1/4 page on the other. I also submitted the write ups for those lots which were pretty much followed, including detailed pedigrees. Auction contracts can be a negotiation....not a take it or leave it. Those 2 lots ended up bringing $83K, or much stronger than anticipated.
@1tommy said:
Bill, so your saying that someone else WAS bidding on the coin and even tho there bid was higher than mine they too did not win the coin? I do not remember any bells or announcement that there was no sale...In fact I thought it showed and still does that the coin sold for the 763.75 There was NO minimum put on this coin.......
Maybe someone reneged on their bid, or perhaps you missed what was going on. My experience has been that you can have bids on floor and the Internet, and there are bids from "the book." On the "bought in" lots, "the book"" won" the auction and then it was announced that there was "no sale."
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
This coin Never had a Minimum Bid Posted but if you read part of the above post,,,
For any successful bid placed by a consignor on his Property on the Auction floor, or by any means during the live session, or after the ”Minimum Bid” for an Auction have been posted, we will
require the consignor to pay full Buyer’s Premium and Seller’s Commissions on such lot."
So a Consignor does NOT have to have a minimum bid on his coin BUT they can bid without it and just have to pay both fees if they Win. So they can run up a coin and take a hit paying the fees.
BillJones Maybe someone reneged on their bid, or perhaps you missed what was going on.
A renege? Dealer ought to have sold to 1tommy as next best offer instead of investing BP + SC. There was no minimum bid posted. MHO.
"For any successful bid placed by a consignor on his Property on the Auction floor, or by any means during the live session, or after the ”Minimum Bid” for an Auction have been posted, we will require the consignor to pay full Buyer’s Premium and Seller’s Commissions on such lot."
That doesn't apply to the house consigned coins of course. And it still comes down to what is negotiated. Don't see why an influential dealer or collector who frequently consigns couldn't arrange a different deal if they bid after "min bid" has been reached.
I guess I must not be in some network and/or need a lawyer to negotiate my consignment contracts. My consignments have generally been 6-figure ones with four- and five-figure (some top pops) lots, but have never managed to be able to set reserves (at 70% or so of market valuation) without a buyback fee assessment looming over. Hell, even getting a piece of the buyer's fee is like pulling teeth (and impossible for something like the FUN sale). It is understandable that there is overhead associated with imaging lots and promoting auctions. Just seems like the better consignments should get a break. They help anchor a sale.
I've been watching about a half dozen coins on ebay, dealers sites and CC.....one for six years and they simply will not budge on the prices. Nobody else wants those coins. When no-one is buying at their listed prices for years especially the one coin going on year seven and no takers? Why wouldn't they take 10-25% less to get it out of their inventory? I don't need the coins for my 1st set anyway so it's no big deal. But I have acquired some superior coins for a discount that have been up for years. It takes a lot of patience but I'm not getting any younger either.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@BillJones said:
Some of what has been written here explains why I really prefer to avoid the auction route to acquire coins if I can. There are so many games behind the scenes that are not known to the bidders.
I have almost never gotten a bargain in an auction. Usually I feel lucky if I get what I view as a fair deal.
I've given up on auctions for my other two hobby interests as well. So many times I would bid on a lot that no one else had bid on. Then the gates opened and all the bids started rushing in. "Looks like we got a live one here".
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Then the gates opened and all the bids started rushing in. "Looks like we got a live one here".
I have noted that in most auctions nothing happens until it lot actually comes up on the Internet. Then the bids come out of the woodwork. The bidding can open for three or four weeks before the auction and then BOOM!
Appearant disinterest before the bidding starts is often a false sign.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Then the gates opened and all the bids started rushing in. "Looks like we got a live one here".
I have noted that in most auctions nothing happens until it lot actually comes up on the Internet. Then the bids come out of the woodwork. The bidding can open for three or four weeks before the auction and then BOOM!
Appearant disinterest before the bidding starts is often a false sign.
Exactly. Just like eBay. Why would you bid early and tip your hand that you're interested?
Then the gates opened and all the bids started rushing in. "Looks like we got a live one here".
I have noted that in most auctions nothing happens until it lot actually comes up on the Internet. Then the bids come out of the woodwork. The bidding can open for three or four weeks before the auction and then BOOM!
Appearant disinterest before the bidding starts is often a false sign.
Exactly. Just like eBay. Why would you bid early and tip your hand that you're interested?
Does it really matter? Putting down a "placer bid" for $1 $5 makes it easier to keep track of the lot, especially on a hard to navigate site like Stacks-Bowers.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@roadrunner said:
"For any successful bid placed by a consignor on his Property on the Auction floor, or by any means during the live session, or after the ”Minimum Bid” for an Auction have been posted, we will require the consignor to pay full Buyer’s Premium and Seller’s Commissions on such lot."
That doesn't apply to the house consigned coins of course. And it still comes down to what is negotiated. Don't see why an influential dealer or collector who frequently consigns couldn't arrange a different deal if they bid after "min bid" has been reached.
Min bid? Doesn't matter. What did you negotiate with the auction house? This is a load of you know what.
I had a bad experience with an auction house a few years ago. I wanted to sell a coin, The auction house offered to start the bid @ 1/2 the value, I said no, sold it for $$value privately, without the baloney. MHO.
@alefzero said:
I guess I must not be in some network and/or need a lawyer to negotiate my consignment contracts. My consignments have generally been 6-figure ones with four- and five-figure (some top pops) lots, but have never managed to be able to set reserves (at 70% or so of market valuation) without a buyback fee assessment looming over. Hell, even getting a piece of the buyer's fee is like pulling teeth (and impossible for something like the FUN sale). It is understandable that there is overhead associated with imaging lots and promoting auctions. Just seems like the better consignments should get a break. They help anchor a sale.
Maybe you need to re-evaluate who you consign to or tag along with someone who is a smarter negotiator.
@leothelyon said:
I've been watching about a half dozen coins on ebay, dealers sites and CC.....one for six years and they simply will not budge on the prices. Nobody else wants those coins. When no-one is buying at their listed prices for years especially the one coin going on year seven and no takers? Why wouldn't they take 10-25% less to get it out of their inventory? I don't need the coins for my 1st set anyway so it's no big deal. But I have acquired some superior coins for a discount that have been up for years. It takes a lot of patience but I'm not getting any younger either.
Leo
How much would relisting fees for 7 years on a $1000 coin on eBay set you back?
Then the gates opened and all the bids started rushing in. "Looks like we got a live one here".
I have noted that in most auctions nothing happens until it lot actually comes up on the Internet. Then the bids come out of the woodwork. The bidding can open for three or four weeks before the auction and then BOOM!
Appearant disinterest before the bidding starts is often a false sign.
Exactly. Just like eBay. Why would you bid early and tip your hand that you're interested?
Does it really matter? Putting down a "placer bid" for $1 $5 makes it easier to keep track of the lot, especially on a hard to navigate site like Stacks-Bowers.
With eBay the average person doesn't know who the other bidders are these days with the coded user names. I don't bid much on eBay so I don't find it difficult to track listings. When a watchlist was limited to 25 items, one had to start bidding just for tracking services.
Ha.com auctions are rigged to a good extent. I can't believe 100s of lots they have twice a week has so many biders hiking the price even when the numismatc market is slow.
Comments
Very informative. Thank you roadrunner.
Tom
Maybe someone reneged on their bid, or perhaps you missed what was going on. My experience has been that you can have bids on floor and the Internet, and there are bids from "the book." On the "bought in" lots, "the book"" won" the auction and then it was announced that there was "no sale."
@1tommy said:
A renege? Dealer ought to have sold to 1tommy as next best offer instead of investing BP + SC. There was no minimum bid posted. MHO.
"For any successful bid placed by a consignor on his Property on the Auction floor, or by any means during the live session, or after the ”Minimum Bid” for an Auction have been posted, we will require the consignor to pay full Buyer’s Premium and Seller’s Commissions on such lot."
That doesn't apply to the house consigned coins of course. And it still comes down to what is negotiated. Don't see why an influential dealer or collector who frequently consigns couldn't arrange a different deal if they bid after "min bid" has been reached.
I guess I must not be in some network and/or need a lawyer to negotiate my consignment contracts. My consignments have generally been 6-figure ones with four- and five-figure (some top pops) lots, but have never managed to be able to set reserves (at 70% or so of market valuation) without a buyback fee assessment looming over. Hell, even getting a piece of the buyer's fee is like pulling teeth (and impossible for something like the FUN sale). It is understandable that there is overhead associated with imaging lots and promoting auctions. Just seems like the better consignments should get a break. They help anchor a sale.
I've been watching about a half dozen coins on ebay, dealers sites and CC.....one for six years and they simply will not budge on the prices. Nobody else wants those coins. When no-one is buying at their listed prices for years especially the one coin going on year seven and no takers? Why wouldn't they take 10-25% less to get it out of their inventory? I don't need the coins for my 1st set anyway so it's no big deal. But I have acquired some superior coins for a discount that have been up for years. It takes a lot of patience but I'm not getting any younger either.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I've given up on auctions for my other two hobby interests as well. So many times I would bid on a lot that no one else had bid on. Then the gates opened and all the bids started rushing in. "Looks like we got a live one here".
I have noted that in most auctions nothing happens until it lot actually comes up on the Internet. Then the bids come out of the woodwork. The bidding can open for three or four weeks before the auction and then BOOM!
Appearant disinterest before the bidding starts is often a false sign.
Exactly. Just like eBay. Why would you bid early and tip your hand that you're interested?
Does it really matter? Putting down a "placer bid" for $1 $5 makes it easier to keep track of the lot, especially on a hard to navigate site like Stacks-Bowers.
Min bid? Doesn't matter. What did you negotiate with the auction house? This is a load of you know what.
I had a bad experience with an auction house a few years ago. I wanted to sell a coin, The auction house offered to start the bid @ 1/2 the value, I said no, sold it for $$value privately, without the baloney. MHO.
Maybe you need to re-evaluate who you consign to or tag along with someone who is a smarter negotiator.
How much would relisting fees for 7 years on a $1000 coin on eBay set you back?
With eBay the average person doesn't know who the other bidders are these days with the coded user names. I don't bid much on eBay so I don't find it difficult to track listings. When a watchlist was limited to 25 items, one had to start bidding just for tracking services.
Read this thread:
http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9606663&fpart=1
Ha.com auctions are rigged to a good extent. I can't believe 100s of lots they have twice a week has so many biders hiking the price even when the numismatc market is slow.
Expecially paying their ultra expensive shipping!
When you sign up to bid, Heritage indicates that house bids are permitted. You agree to those terms.