I can only think that some people actively bought up PCGS mistakes to profit on and that's why they have become so hardnose in the last five years, it's a shame. The rescinding of the Copper color guarantee was the beginning of the end and now the willingness to hide behind the mechanical excuse does not bode well for the future.
@cnncoins said:
Several years ago I bought a better date buffalo nickel (24D or 25D I believe) out of a PCGS 65 holder with a monster strike that I paid a few thousand dollars for I thought was very undergraded. I cracked it out of the holder only to watch the D fall off. "Hmm...must have been net graded" I thought. Out of the PCGS holder and no guarantee. Oops.
They are obviously out there and active.... many examples have been shown here... both in and out of slabs. You cannot stop people from this practice since it brings profit.... and almost never is it prosecuted... even less seldom successfully. Cheers, RickO
One of the biggest battles I saw was over a 27-S Buffalo Nickel graded MS64. One dealer bought it from another dealer,cracked it out and it came back added MM. I never heard the outcome. That's a toughie because the seller lost the guarantee.
@cnncoins said:
Several years ago I bought a better date buffalo nickel (24D or 25D I believe) out of a PCGS 65 holder with a monster strike that I paid a few thousand dollars for I thought was very undergraded. I cracked it out of the holder only to watch the D fall off. "Hmm...must have been net graded" I thought. Out of the PCGS holder and no guarantee. Oops.
aBitofThisAbitOfThat: The symbiotic relationship is true for a least a certain percentage of dealers. ... I don't think that it is my place to reveal his name here, but he is a large dealer - tables at Baltimore three times a year, ANA, etc. Every dealer on the bourse knows that he doctors coins - it is not all he does, but he does it a lot. Every month, I see and hear other dealers showing him their problems coins and asking if he can fix them - "Can you make this AU coin look MS and get it into a PCGS holder"? or "Can you AT this (harshly cleaned) coin for me"?
aBitofThisAbitOfThat (continues): I was quite honestly shocked at how open these conversations are. I am a part time dealer who knows everyone in the room, so the full time dealers talk openly in front of me. I had assumed that coin docs were doing their work in secret and were kind of shunned by legit dealers. At least this particular doc is actively sought out for advice and 'skill'. I can't imagine that this is an isolated incident.
SaintGuru: Coin doctors are around and they are GOOD. Dipping is NOT doctoring. Covering surfaces or filling IS doctoring. [Artificial] Toning IS doctoring. Andy says 100 on the floor but I think the actual number of expert coin "abortionists" is about 20. These guys will think nothing of messing with a six-figure coin. ...
I continue to maintain that coin doctoring is the most serious problem in the realm of rare or scarce coins. Not long ago, one leading dealer in Europe told me that this problem is worsening there. I really believe that coin doctoring can be contained, if knowledgeable or otherwise influential people are willing to become involved in educational activities and speak more openly, especially about specific coins.
@cnncoins said:
Several years ago I bought a better date buffalo nickel (24D or 25D I believe) out of a PCGS 65 holder with a monster strike that I paid a few thousand dollars for I thought was very undergraded. I cracked it out of the holder only to watch the D fall off. "Hmm...must have been net graded" I thought. Out of the PCGS holder and no guarantee. Oops.
I think the well known "eye" at RCNH, Warren Mills has called them demon Michaelangelos, joining the Legend Numis. crusade against the sick docs..
Actually I have heard many anecdotal stories about ways to gradually tone coins in the right sulfur rich holders or on the right dusty windowsill. The fast methods with toxic chemicals, etc. have bad results. I have heard of someone who works at a big grading service using a certain type of wood soaked with right chemicals for a toning process. But it is the interest of no one to share their secrets.
I only personally know 2 coin docs. They are top level dealers and graders too. They appear to get along with everyone. As to their proficiency among the top 20 or 100, I have no clue. I know that one of them took a coin my agent sold them at a major show and proceeded to head right into the men's room to dip and and putty the coin. That would have been the last coin I'd ever guess would have been taken to the "cleaners." It was eventually going to make the MS65 grade just the way it was. That coin I had tried 5X combined at both services (raw each time) and kept getting MS64's....a very high end, better date seated quarter. The Doc goes all putty on it and gets MS65 the first time in.
The Docs are no doubt a problem. But, as far as overall market affects over the past 7 years, CAC takes that easily. They've single handedly helped to crush NGC coins (half of the slabbed market). Not saying it wasn't warranted, or even right....just that this is the net outcome. It's good that JA is helping identify doctored coins.
Lasers are also used and other high tech gadgets; I know a dealer who was warned by NGC; "just don't send in any more lasered coins!". Good for removing hairlines on proof coins.
Comments
I can only think that some people actively bought up PCGS mistakes to profit on and that's why they have become so hardnose in the last five years, it's a shame. The rescinding of the Copper color guarantee was the beginning of the end and now the willingness to hide behind the mechanical excuse does not bode well for the future.
Why can't I find any results from PCGS vs coin doctors lawsuit? What happened if anything?
PM me if its taboo to say publicly.
They are obviously out there and active.... many examples have been shown here... both in and out of slabs. You cannot stop people from this practice since it brings profit.... and almost never is it prosecuted... even less seldom successfully. Cheers, RickO
Fortunately error coins have tended to be avoided by the "doctors", but it still happens from time to time.
Sad to see so many coins being ruined/damaged by greedy people.
One of the biggest battles I saw was over a 27-S Buffalo Nickel graded MS64. One dealer bought it from another dealer,cracked it out and it came back added MM. I never heard the outcome. That's a toughie because the seller lost the guarantee.
aBitofThisAbitOfThat: The symbiotic relationship is true for a least a certain percentage of dealers. ... I don't think that it is my place to reveal his name here, but he is a large dealer - tables at Baltimore three times a year, ANA, etc. Every dealer on the bourse knows that he doctors coins - it is not all he does, but he does it a lot. Every month, I see and hear other dealers showing him their problems coins and asking if he can fix them - "Can you make this AU coin look MS and get it into a PCGS holder"? or "Can you AT this (harshly cleaned) coin for me"?
aBitofThisAbitOfThat (continues):
SaintGuru: Coin doctors
I continue to maintain that coin doctoring is the most serious problem in the realm of rare or scarce coins. Not long ago, one leading dealer in Europe told me that this problem is worsening there. I really believe that coin doctoring can be contained, if knowledgeable or otherwise influential people are willing to become involved in educational activities and speak more openly, especially about specific coins.
The Specter of Coin Doctoring and The Survival of Great Coins
I hate the phrase "Coin Doctor".
Actual doctors do good things (mostly). These guys should just be called frauds and thieves.
Bad batch of glue at the Mint.
I think the well known "eye" at RCNH, Warren Mills has called them demon Michaelangelos, joining the Legend Numis. crusade against the sick docs..
Actually I have heard many anecdotal stories about ways to gradually tone coins in the right sulfur rich holders or on the right dusty windowsill. The fast methods with toxic chemicals, etc. have bad results. I have heard of someone who works at a big grading service using a certain type of wood soaked with right chemicals for a toning process. But it is the interest of no one to share their secrets.
I only personally know 2 coin docs. They are top level dealers and graders too. They appear to get along with everyone. As to their proficiency among the top 20 or 100, I have no clue. I know that one of them took a coin my agent sold them at a major show and proceeded to head right into the men's room to dip and and putty the coin. That would have been the last coin I'd ever guess would have been taken to the "cleaners." It was eventually going to make the MS65 grade just the way it was. That coin I had tried 5X combined at both services (raw each time) and kept getting MS64's....a very high end, better date seated quarter. The Doc goes all putty on it and gets MS65 the first time in.
The Docs are no doubt a problem. But, as far as overall market affects over the past 7 years, CAC takes that easily. They've single handedly helped to crush NGC coins (half of the slabbed market). Not saying it wasn't warranted, or even right....just that this is the net outcome. It's good that JA is helping identify doctored coins.
Lasers are also used and other high tech gadgets; I know a dealer who was warned by NGC; "just don't send in any more lasered coins!". Good for removing hairlines on proof coins.