<< <i>There's RYK, mgoodm3, Lakesammman, Dahlonega, RWB, Nic, Barry, DrPete, ER (whatever happened to him, BTW), your friend, Duckor, etc...
Need any more names? >>
I suppose my two doctorate degrees don't qualify me to be called Dr. Longacre.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Coin Doctors doing things similar to what plastic surgeons do, or coin doctors that make coins feel better?
-wes >>
The important thing is that the coins feel better about themselves....
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
There are probably more than 100 coin doctors on the floor of every major coin show. Funny thing is, I can't remember any of their names at the moment.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Why is it that we hear all this talk about coin doctors, but nobody cares to out them? Sounds to me like a bunch of BS about all the coin doctors flooding the bourse floors.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
The doctors will never be outed. It would hurt everyone if they were.
If you found out the name of a doctor, you would want to know what his specialty is. Finding out what area of coins have been manipulated, will do nothing but cause a scare in that vector thus dropping prices, even the ones that have not been played with.
Look what happened with the Blue Proof IHC's, regardless of what some say, my opinion is that the market/price for this type of coin fell drastically following this episode. This hurt not only the dealers, but the collectors as well. In my opinion it's ashame now that anytime someone posts a gorgeous Blue Proof piece of copper, most people on the boards think about MS70.
To bad because there were plenty of these around a long long time before that individual recreated/or revealed (Depending on your viewpoint) that look on numerous coins.
<< <i>Why is it that we hear all this talk about coin doctors, but nobody cares to out them? Sounds to me like a bunch of BS about all the coin doctors flooding the bourse floors. >>
I agree with Mozin. You know this forum is the Collectors Universe message boards. But it seems to me that most collectors would want to know who the Drs in the house are. As it is I believe that the Drs and Dealers on this site have a symbiotic relationship. Both screw over the true Collector and neither have it in their interests to out the Drs. in fear of ruining a good business relationship.
I also have a theory that the biggest posters here are dealers or quasi dealers and not true collectors. I could be wrong, but why else has no one outed the coin doctors here?
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>Why is it that we hear all this talk about coin doctors, but nobody cares to out them? Sounds to me like a bunch of BS about all the coin doctors flooding the bourse floors. >>
I agree with Mozin. You know this forum is the Collectors Universe message boards. But it seems to me that most collectors would want to know who the Drs in the house are. As it is I believe that the Drs and Dealers on this site have a symbiotic relationship. Both screw over the true Collector and neither have it in their interests to out the Drs. in fear of ruining a good business relationship. >>
The symbiotic relationship is true for a least a certain percentage of dealers. There is a coin doc who sets up at a show that I go to once a month. I don't think that it is my place to reveal his name here, but he is a large dealer - tables at Baltimore three times a year, ANA, etc. Every dealer on the bourse knows that he doctors coins - it is not all he does, but he does it a lot. Every month, I see and hear other dealers showing him their problems coins and asking if he can fix them - "Can you make this AU coin look MS and get it into a PCGS holder"? or "Can you AT this (harshly cleaned) coin for me"?
I was quite honestly shocked at how open these conversations are. I am a part time dealer who knows everyone in the room, so the full time dealers talk openly in front of me. I had assumed that coin docs were doing their work in secret and were kind of shunned by legit dealers. At least this particular doc is actively sought out for advice and 'skill'. I can't imagine that this is an isolated incident.
What good would a list of coin doctors do most of us? I'm sure I wouldn't recognized any of their names since they sell their products to dealers and not to the general collecting public.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>So is a CAC sticker some assurance/guarantee that the coin within the slab to which it is attached, has not been paid a housecall by a coin doc? >>
I would say that it ferrets out 90%+ of doctored coins. That's the first and primary thing that CAC looks for first. Remember that this isn't at the fault of PCGS because a good "fix" won't show any signs when frehly done and slabbed. It's months to years later when certain substances start to turn in the holder that it's evident.
Denying that these guys are out there is like whistling past the graveyard. They are around and they are GOOD. Dipping is NOT doctoring. Covering surfaces or filling IS doctoring. Toning IS doctoring. Andy says 100 on the floor but I think the actual number of expert coin "abortionists" is about 20. These guys will think nothing of messing with a six-figure coin. I had a dealer at ANA who wouldn't let go of my 1920-S MS64 Saint...asking me repeatedly if it was for sale. I KNEW he thought he could possibly make it an MS65 which turns a ~$200K coin into a $300-350K coin! He also said he has a 1920-S MS65 that he hasn't offered to anyone yet. Had I believed it was a legit coin I'd have offered him a straight up trade.
I told him they were both from the same litter. He stopped smiling, I started laughing.
<< <i>I would say that it ferrets out 90%+ of doctored coins. That's the first and primary thing that CAC looks for first. Remember that this isn't at the fault of PCGS because a good "fix" won't show any signs when frehly done and slabbed. It's months to years later when certain substances start to turn in the holder that it's evident. >>
I am curious about this statement. If PCGS cannot see coin doctoring when the coin is raw and in their hands...what makes you believe that CAC can identify the issue when the coin is embedded in plastic. Assume that it is a fresh coin and has not yet had months to turn.
Why do I ask this question? Because if CAC is doing something to identify doctored coins, I would assume PCGS could easily do the same. And, I am curious about the technicalities of identifying doctored coins as well. But I don't expect answers to all questions.
Your story saddens me in the sense that there is a huge pressure to destroy top coins. It seems to me that it takes an Expert to identify such coin doctors and refuse to let them destroy such coins. I imagine it takes some self restraint not to sell to the wrong person. Or do the coin doctors self identify themselves easily? I shudder to think if one had sold such a coin unknowingly into certain death. Good for you!
<< would say that it ferrets out 90%+ of doctored coins. That's the first and primary thing that CAC looks for first. Remember that this isn't at the fault of PCGS because a good "fix" won't show any signs when frehly done and slabbed. It's months to years later when certain substances start to turn in the holder that it's evident. >>
I guess that means a doctor needs to get his CAC sticker right after PCGS holders it!
When are the COIN LAWYERS going to get after the COIN DOCTORS???
No one... not even CAC, can identify really good work.... perhaps years and years from now, it may be evident... but the best will never be identified... and it is not hard to learn enough to be in the top ten.... there are literally thousands and thousands and thousands of doctored coins out there.... and most are NOT identified. Cheers, RickO
<< <i>I would say that it ferrets out 90%+ of doctored coins. That's the first and primary thing that CAC looks for first. Remember that this isn't at the fault of PCGS because a good "fix" won't show any signs when frehly done and slabbed. It's months to years later when certain substances start to turn in the holder that it's evident. >>
I am curious about this statement. If PCGS cannot see coin doctoring when the coin is raw and in their hands...what makes you believe that CAC can identify the issue when the coin is embedded in plastic. Assume that it is a fresh coin and has not yet had months to turn.
Why do I ask this question? Because if CAC is doing something to identify doctored coins, I would assume PCGS could easily do the same. And, I am curious about the technicalities of identifying doctored coins as well. But I don't expect answers to all questions.
Your story saddens me in the sense that there is a huge pressure to destroy top coins. It seems to me that it takes an Expert to identify such coin doctors and refuse to let them destroy such coins. I imagine it takes some self restraint not to sell to the wrong person. Or do the coin doctors self identify themselves easily? I shudder to think if one had sold such a coin unknowingly into certain death. Good for you! >>
You are making oversimplified assumptions. It is almost impossible to detect a well doctored coin when it's freshly done. However as time passes some substances start to turn...hazy, discolored, white-ish, all sorts of questionable characteristics. However in the interim someone with an extraordinary eye who has made a career of forensic coin grading CAM spot these coins.
What makes me believe that CAC can do this? Because John Albanese has been exactly the guy who has been the forensic expert in this field and he LOOKS for doctoring. He showed me a few coins that had been messed with and I couldn't see it until he turned them in 5 different directions....and then I saw a small hint of what he saw immediately. It's damn hard to tell a doctored coin. I've stared at some thinking they were wonderful, only to find out that they had been messed with. I know of two VERY special gold coins that recently sold and both had been messed with in one way or another. Nothing terribly serious but enough that I wouldn't go near them. I have zero-tolerance for any alteration.
It's not "pressure" that makes these scumbags ruin coins. It's GREED. My 1920-S MS64 Saint that's worth $200K; the fact that an MS65 would bring $350K is the reason to screw with it. However it's not very easy to make that kind of coin. There are certain "cheats" that are easier than taking a rarity and turning it from a near-gem to a gem, so in this case I think he would have had a ruined coin on HIS hands.
I believe that at least one person openly admited to doctoring coins with the intention of deceit for gain on this forum last year.. or maybe it was two years ago. I think he later tried to make things right by trying to buy the coins back.
<< <i>I believe that at least one person openly admited to doctoring coins with the intention of deceit for gain on this forum last year.. or maybe it was two years ago. I think he later tried to make things right by trying to buy the coins back. >>
i will play the devil's advocate and state coin doctors are good for the market.
after all, they are just filling a need of collectors who want things a certain way be it dipped and shiny, nicely toned, and the ever mysterious lasered gold proof surfaces!
who are we to say they are bad when collectors drool over their wares? dealers like them because they produce coins that sell for reasonable prices and everybody wins!
Mr. Eureka: There are probably more than 100 coin doctors on the floor of every major coin show. Funny thing is, I can't remember any of their names at the moment.
CoinOsaurus: When you say one hundred doctors, are you just talking dippers, or something more nefarious.
Mr. Eureka: Something more nefarious. But that doesn't mean they're all top level doctors. ...
Regarding the number of "top level" coin doctors, I compared notes with JA, Charlie Browne and others in the past. Our estimates tended to be in the same ballpark, but there is no way to know for certain. There are some remarks along these lines in my first article on the PCGS lawsuit against alleged coin doctors. It was never proved in court that any of the defendants engaged in wrongdoing, and I am not here implying that they did.
Several years ago I bought a better date buffalo nickel (24D or 25D I believe) out of a PCGS 65 holder with a monster strike that I paid a few thousand dollars for I thought was very undergraded. I cracked it out of the holder only to watch the D fall off. "Hmm...must have been net graded" I thought. Out of the PCGS holder and no guarantee. Oops.
saintguru
Posts: 7,724 ✭✭✭
Comments
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Need any more names?
Also looking for VF-EF Seated halves.
Sell me your old auction catalogs...
<< <i>There's RYK, mgoodm3, Lakesammman, Dahlonega, RWB, Nic, Barry, DrPete, ER (whatever happened to him, BTW), your friend, Duckor, etc...
Need any more names?
I suppose my two doctorate degrees don't qualify me to be called Dr. Longacre.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Coin Doctors doing things similar to what plastic surgeons do, or coin doctors that make coins feel better?
-wes
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Forum AdministratorPSA & PSA/DNA ForumModerator@collectors.com | p 800.325.1121 | PSAcard.com
<< <i>Coin Doctors doing things similar to what plastic surgeons do, or coin doctors that make coins feel better?
-wes >>
The important thing is that the coins feel better about themselves....
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
SG obviously knows of whom I speak, so I'm not really sure why he is asking, except to cause trouble
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
When you say one hundred doctors, are you just talking dippers, or something more nefarious.
Camelot
Q: What do closet coin doctors that complain about doctoring in public take?
A: A Hypocritic Oath
corny i know
www.brunkauctions.com
I'll _NEVER_ pass the exam.
I guess I am a coin chiropractor.
So far, i've given a few away. Spent a few.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
If you found out the name of a doctor, you would want to know what his specialty is. Finding out what area of coins have been manipulated, will do nothing but cause a scare in that vector thus dropping prices, even the ones that have not been played with.
Look what happened with the Blue Proof IHC's, regardless of what some say, my opinion is that the market/price for this type of coin fell drastically following this episode. This hurt not only the dealers, but the collectors as well. In my opinion it's ashame now that anytime someone posts a gorgeous Blue Proof piece of copper, most people on the boards think about MS70.
To bad because there were plenty of these around a long long time before that individual recreated/or revealed (Depending on your viewpoint) that look on numerous coins.
JMO
Ron
Oh never mind.
<< <i>Why is it that we hear all this talk about coin doctors, but nobody cares to out them? Sounds to me like a bunch of BS about all the coin doctors flooding the bourse floors. >>
I agree with Mozin. You know this forum is the Collectors Universe message boards. But it seems to me that most collectors would want to know who the Drs in the house are. As it is I believe that the Drs and Dealers on this site have a symbiotic relationship. Both screw over the true Collector and neither have it in their interests to out the Drs. in fear of ruining a good business relationship.
I also have a theory that the biggest posters here are dealers or quasi dealers and not true collectors. I could be wrong, but why else has no one outed the coin doctors here?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>
<< <i>Why is it that we hear all this talk about coin doctors, but nobody cares to out them? Sounds to me like a bunch of BS about all the coin doctors flooding the bourse floors. >>
I agree with Mozin. You know this forum is the Collectors Universe message boards. But it seems to me that most collectors would want to know who the Drs in the house are. As it is I believe that the Drs and Dealers on this site have a symbiotic relationship. Both screw over the true Collector and neither have it in their interests to out the Drs. in fear of ruining a good business relationship. >>
The symbiotic relationship is true for a least a certain percentage of dealers. There is a coin doc who sets up at a show that I go to once a month. I don't think that it is my place to reveal his name here, but he is a large dealer - tables at Baltimore three times a year, ANA, etc. Every dealer on the bourse knows that he doctors coins - it is not all he does, but he does it a lot. Every month, I see and hear other dealers showing him their problems coins and asking if he can fix them - "Can you make this AU coin look MS and get it into a PCGS holder"? or "Can you AT this (harshly cleaned) coin for me"?
I was quite honestly shocked at how open these conversations are. I am a part time dealer who knows everyone in the room, so the full time dealers talk openly in front of me. I had assumed that coin docs were doing their work in secret and were kind of shunned by legit dealers. At least this particular doc is actively sought out for advice and 'skill'. I can't imagine that this is an isolated incident.
merse
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>So is a CAC sticker some assurance/guarantee that the coin within the slab to which it is attached, has not been paid a housecall by a coin doc? >>
I would say that it ferrets out 90%+ of doctored coins. That's the first and primary thing that CAC looks for first. Remember that this isn't at the fault of PCGS because a good "fix" won't show any signs when frehly done and slabbed. It's months to years later when certain substances start to turn in the holder that it's evident.
Denying that these guys are out there is like whistling past the graveyard. They are around and they are GOOD. Dipping is NOT doctoring. Covering surfaces or filling IS doctoring. Toning IS doctoring. Andy says 100 on the floor but I think the actual number of expert coin "abortionists" is about 20. These guys will think nothing of messing with a six-figure coin. I had a dealer at ANA who wouldn't let go of my 1920-S MS64 Saint...asking me repeatedly if it was for sale. I KNEW he thought he could possibly make it an MS65 which turns a ~$200K coin into a $300-350K coin! He also said he has a 1920-S MS65 that he hasn't offered to anyone yet. Had I believed it was a legit coin I'd have offered him a straight up trade.
I told him they were both from the same litter. He stopped smiling, I started laughing.
<< <i>I would say that it ferrets out 90%+ of doctored coins. That's the first and primary thing that CAC looks for first. Remember that this isn't at the fault of PCGS because a good "fix" won't show any signs when frehly done and slabbed. It's months to years later when certain substances start to turn in the holder that it's evident. >>
I am curious about this statement. If PCGS cannot see coin doctoring when the coin is raw and in their hands...what makes you believe that CAC can identify the issue when the coin is embedded in plastic. Assume that it is a fresh coin and has not yet had months to turn.
Why do I ask this question? Because if CAC is doing something to identify doctored coins, I would assume PCGS could easily do the same. And, I am curious about the technicalities of identifying doctored coins as well. But I don't expect answers to all questions.
Your story saddens me in the sense that there is a huge pressure to destroy top coins. It seems to me that it takes an Expert to identify such coin doctors and refuse to let them destroy such coins. I imagine it takes some self restraint not to sell to the wrong person. Or do the coin doctors self identify themselves easily? I shudder to think if one had sold such a coin unknowingly into certain death. Good for you!
I guess that means a doctor needs to get his CAC sticker right after PCGS holders it!
When are the COIN LAWYERS going to get after the COIN DOCTORS???
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>
<< <i>I would say that it ferrets out 90%+ of doctored coins. That's the first and primary thing that CAC looks for first. Remember that this isn't at the fault of PCGS because a good "fix" won't show any signs when frehly done and slabbed. It's months to years later when certain substances start to turn in the holder that it's evident. >>
I am curious about this statement. If PCGS cannot see coin doctoring when the coin is raw and in their hands...what makes you believe that CAC can identify the issue when the coin is embedded in plastic. Assume that it is a fresh coin and has not yet had months to turn.
Why do I ask this question? Because if CAC is doing something to identify doctored coins, I would assume PCGS could easily do the same. And, I am curious about the technicalities of identifying doctored coins as well. But I don't expect answers to all questions.
Your story saddens me in the sense that there is a huge pressure to destroy top coins. It seems to me that it takes an Expert to identify such coin doctors and refuse to let them destroy such coins. I imagine it takes some self restraint not to sell to the wrong person. Or do the coin doctors self identify themselves easily? I shudder to think if one had sold such a coin unknowingly into certain death. Good for you! >>
You are making oversimplified assumptions. It is almost impossible to detect a well doctored coin when it's freshly done. However as time passes some substances start to turn...hazy, discolored, white-ish, all sorts of questionable characteristics. However in the interim someone with an extraordinary eye who has made a career of forensic coin grading CAM spot these coins.
What makes me believe that CAC can do this? Because John Albanese has been exactly the guy who has been the forensic expert in this field and he LOOKS for doctoring. He showed me a few coins that had been messed with and I couldn't see it until he turned them in 5 different directions....and then I saw a small hint of what he saw immediately. It's damn hard to tell a doctored coin. I've stared at some thinking they were wonderful, only to find out that they had been messed with. I know of two VERY special gold coins that recently sold and both had been messed with in one way or another. Nothing terribly serious but enough that I wouldn't go near them. I have zero-tolerance for any alteration.
It's not "pressure" that makes these scumbags ruin coins. It's GREED. My 1920-S MS64 Saint that's worth $200K; the fact that an MS65 would bring $350K is the reason to screw with it. However it's not very easy to make that kind of coin. There are certain "cheats" that are easier than taking a rarity and turning it from a near-gem to a gem, so in this case I think he would have had a ruined coin on HIS hands.
<< <i>I believe that at least one person openly admited to doctoring coins with the intention of deceit for gain on this forum last year.. or maybe it was two years ago. I think he later tried to make things right by trying to buy the coins back. >>
Man-O-Tone?
Young Dr. Killdime
Dr. "Fill"
Dr. Not-a-real McCoy
History of the US Constitution Coin Set
the market.
after all, they are just filling a need of collectors who want things
a certain way be it dipped and shiny, nicely toned, and the ever
mysterious lasered gold proof surfaces!
who are we to say they are bad when collectors drool over their
wares? dealers like them because they produce coins that sell for
reasonable prices and everybody wins!
heh
Something more nefarious. But that doesn't mean they're all top level doctors.
BTW, if I had only been talking about dippers, the number would have been in the thousands.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
A blast from the past!
WOW, I had to check the thread to see if Jay was back around. man, I miss him!!
One was named recently!
Say it aint so...............
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Bear only has a single star? Blasphemy!
peacockcoins
Allen Stockman, CRS. https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/340297/crs-coin-repair They keep their successes confidential and their failures they try to hide. The really cunning ones work with very toxic chemicals especially when working with gold.
Mr. Eureka:
CoinOsaurus:
Mr. Eureka:
Regarding the number of "top level" coin doctors, I compared notes with JA, Charlie Browne and others in the past. Our estimates tended to be in the same ballpark, but there is no way to know for certain. There are some remarks along these lines in my first article on the PCGS lawsuit against alleged coin doctors. It was never proved in court that any of the defendants engaged in wrongdoing, and I am not here implying that they did.
The PCGS Lawsuit Against Alleged Coin Doctors
Several years ago I bought a better date buffalo nickel (24D or 25D I believe) out of a PCGS 65 holder with a monster strike that I paid a few thousand dollars for I thought was very undergraded. I cracked it out of the holder only to watch the D fall off. "Hmm...must have been net graded" I thought. Out of the PCGS holder and no guarantee. Oops.