1814 Bust Half NGC AU 55 CAC GOLD.......What would PCGS grade it?.....Scroll down for the PCGS grade
drddm
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drddm
Posts: 5,415 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Probably around 58, CAC is strict on Bust coins.
AU58 with Green CAC sticker...
is it really that dark in hand? Awful pics make it seem lusterless
I have seen the coin in hand - it's awesome!
Sunshine Rare Coins
sunshinecoins.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
Mediocre photo of a great AU58 with premium toning. Looks like one of my photos!
Here is what Sheridan Downey had to say about Henry Hamilton (excerpted from his email of 7.14.16 to his customers):
"Several of you have wondered about the “Hamilton Collection,” to be sold by Heritage during the ANA Convention. George H. Hamilton lived in a suburb of Chicago and was one of my favorite customers from the late 1980’s until shortly after my sale of Gehring Prouty’s coins at the 2000 ANA Convention in Philadelphia. Health issues began to plague him about then. He passed away in 2004. His wife, Helen, died last year. George loved early bust coinage. He was not much interested in die varieties. He focused on dates and “eyeball” Red Book varieties. In time he developed a good eye, regularly picking off attractive offerings in my mail bid and fixed price offerings. If you cannot make it to Anaheim I will be happy to preview, consult and bid for you on any lots in the Heritage auction. George’s coins, purchased in the infant and adolescent days of PCGS and NGC, especially deserve on-site inspection."
I know Lance won his amazing 1815/2 bust half NGC AU 55 CAC GOLD from the same auction and crossed it to PCGS 58.
I also know that it recently had been upgraded to 58+!
So does this 1814 deserve to be in a PCGS 58+ holder too?
drddm, are you asking what it might grade as a cross or cracked out?
You know the die marriage and how these halves look. If the luster is all there I think it would cross at 58. And if it were later regraded it might earn a + or even MS. (I didn't preview the lot.)
I wouldn't crack this CAC-gold stickered old fattie. Someone paid 62 money for it. It would truly suck if it came back 55 without the sticker, and the old fattie gone forever.
Lance.
I totally agree Lance, but my hunch is whoever won it cracked it out and submitted it raw as I don't think PCGS would have graded it MS63 (Yes 63!!!) on a straight crossover in the holder.
This 1814 happens to now be in a PCGS MS 63 holder, and the luster is all there! I know this because it's mine, although the True View definitely doesn't show it.
Looks like whoever graded it as a raw 63, as Hamilton indicates on the holder, knew how to grade.
I hope that whenever this coin gets sold, that yellow sticky goes with it.
I got one of the Hamilton bust quarters in the ANA auction. OGH P55 green CAC, like no others I have seen. Paid MS62 money, but have no plans of cracking it even though it could be low MS if submitted raw, or could be 55, who knows? It is pretty darn clear looking through the Hamliton BQ's that he had a great eye for great coins. But youze got to pay to play with theeze types of uber quality examples.
Wow! That's crazy, drddm.
I agree. I can't see a PCGS cross from 55 to 63. Someone had balls!
I'm sure it is a splendid coin. I'd love to see it in hand and take a picture or two.
Lance.
I would have guessed AU58. In my opinion it shows signs of circulation. It's a beautiful coin though and definitely worth a premium.
A 5 point upgrade......CRAZY sums it up perfectly!
I guess that proves that "some" gold CAC stickered coins are indeed undergraded by more than one point.
But my hunch, again, is that whoever won the coin (or whoever finally sent it in to PCGS), did so as a RAW coin as I can't see PCGS crossing a NGC 55 to 63 on a single submission. I guess NGC was really being conservative when they first graded that coin.
That is an amazing upgrade....the strike does appear, from the pictures, to justify an MS grade. Cheers, RickO
You wonder why the graders were so "conservative" in the first place, doesn't make any sense even with the most conservative grading standards. A mistake? The graders and the finalizers got up on the wrong side of the bed that day?
Thankfully PCGS allows a lot of flexibility with upgrades, non_NGC holders etc. which is very appealing. Look to our leaders to lead, be positive taking the high road and not be controversial with unproveable assertions.
I guess the only question that remains is, does CAC think the coin is now accurately graded?
Grades have become very liberal.
To answer my last question...apparently CAC does agree with the 63 grade now.
NGC should apologize to the original submitters offering money back on mistakes like this. If someone walked that coin into a show buyer or shop, the dealer would have tried to buy it based on its AU55 holder not based on what a correct grade would have been worth. Unbelieveable, and I have seen them calling coins "cleaned" that are fine.
I think we can say that CAC had an inclination as well? What is tough about this coin is that in the second and a half a grader looks at it, the wings and feathers look like wear, even though they are not. It is an illusion of the patina. Sometimes, all it takes is a Gold Sticker to make us look closer. :-)
I agree completely logger 7, unfortunately the original submitter was George Hamilton, who has since passed away many years ago.
Still, that coin was grossly undergraded.
The old fatty NGC holders tend to tone coins (beautifully) over time. This could have been one of the reasons for the 5 point upgrade?
Possibly, but it was most likely undergraded, as I can't imagine nice toning would bump up a coin FIVE grades!
I wouldn't believe toning would've added a 5 point upgrade. Maybe just a point or two combined with the under grading.
In defense of NGC it looks to me like PCGS graders were off by a mile. This isn't my series at all but the flatness on the eagles left wing and head scream wear. The flatness in the hair above the ear does too. Others may attribute this to weak strike but the coins eventual value should suffer because it's not all there.
Paging Mark Salzberg...paging Mark Salzberg...please come to drddm's thread.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Awesome coin, sold for $3,760 8/16 in the old fatty holder. These CBH's can be deceptive. The "flatness" some have mentioned could possibly be from some early die lapping. That would not be uncommon due to the heavy die clashing seen on 103.
Either way she's a beauty, and sadly not in my CBH collection
Wow this is a surprise...it would be a welcomed edition to my collection anyday...before or after.
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I wonder what my neon half that is graded AU53 with a gold CAC sticker would grade today. I have no interest in cracking it out though.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Once you accept the concept that a tiny bit of rub no longer magically limits a coin to 58, but rather is just another factor in assigning the grade in the full grade range then stuff like this will no longer amaze you...
Hey Ankur,
I've stared at your gorgeous, neon toned 1831 bust half many a time, and depending on the luster, it may be able to get into a 58 holder one day, however, if I owned it, I would keep it as is. The wear on the coin would keep it out of a MS holder though IMO.
Still, a beautiful bust half I'd love to have in my collection, along with your incredible 1815/2. Keep me in mind please should you ever decide to sell either.
Dave
Well said TDN, and couldn't agree more!
Love the dark hidden luster, and strike. Looks like damage on the obverse, under the bust.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
This is a beautiful coin! There were so many great coins in the Hamilton Collection, and yes, the grading was very conservative in most cases. If you look at the price realized for this particular coin, it brought "63" money regardless of the holder it was in. In most cases, a coin will bring current market levels, regardless of whether it is ungraded or overgraded.
Congrats on a nice pick up!
That's die clashing.
I would have kept it in the NGC old holder instead.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
I understand your point but I can definitely state that I get so much more enjoyment out of viewing coins through the optically superior Pcgs plastic over the ngc. More of the flash of the coin is apparent. I can't count the number of times that I've gotten a crossed coin back in the new holder and gone 'wow!'
I'm sure we would say wow to any of your coins
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
That's a 63???
Based on my submission history, if I were to submit that coin, it comes back 53 all day long.
I believe this is the biggest change of the last 10 years. The TPGs are no longer going from MS-65 to AU-58 with the smallest amount of rub, as it just doesn't seem to make logical sense. The extension of that is that MS-60's have less wear than 58s. 63s have even less wear and 64's even less. I think if you look at enough standing liberty quarters and Indian quarter eagles, you can see this happening. There is clear demonstrable wear on SLQs all the way up through 63. Quarter eagles show wear up until at least 62, maybe 63.