Don't shun non-CAC coins if they're nice and priced right
rhedden
Posts: 6,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
I recently purchase a beautifully toned, cameo proof type coin in a PCGS holder. It's graded a point higher than it ought to be, IMHO, as there are enough light hairlines in the field to keep it from deserving the grade on the holder. The seller agreed with me, as I bought it at the lower grade (not in between, but right at the going Heritage auction rate for the lower grade). It's not going to get a CAC sticker in its present holder, but it has tremendous eye appeal with lovely rim toning and a strong cameo effect.
Everybody would love it if I posted it in the lower grade with a green bean on it. In the higher grade holder with no bean, it might get a truckload of forum poop dumped on it.
I think it would have been a shame if I had passed up on this particular coin. It's a great piece, and it's priced right. Anyone else with me on this, or is your obsessive-compulsive inner collector saying "no bean, no deal"?
Afterthought: "this thread is useless without pictures." Sorry, but the coin in question has entered the witness protection program!
Comments
There are a lot of coins that entered collections before CAC was even started to. I know of guite a few that are in a safety deposit box right down the street.
I think that there are still quite a few nice coins out there that CAC hasn't seen and I seek those out. I am VERY comfortable in my series and know, when I see a nice coin. I can always send them in later, myself.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
If there are coins that are nice for their assigned grade, there are also coins that aren't. These coins can be perfectly desirable, but at a lower, more appropriate price. Knowing the difference is the key. Somehow it always comes back to knowledge, experience, and the coin itself.
Went through this when certification started. Then it had to be in the "right" holder. Now add on the sticker and it just might be solid for the grade. But, maybe not.
The sad part after all these years a good amount of people aren't sure what the sticker is supposed to mean. Then we have the ones that say what they want it to mean. Then:) we have the ones that don't/won't correct someone on the definition as long as it seems to benefit them.
You better believe they will correct them if it makes the value not look good. All done....... for now.
If having a sticker is important to you and If the coin is as nice as you say.
Even though your doubtful it might you should try as you never know.
As even many coins that got rejected once sticker on a second try.
Great topic and some excellent points being made by others as well. I agree with the spirit of the OP and will take it one step further. In my case, I don't ever purchase a coin based solely on the presence, or lack thereof, of a CAC sticker. I've seen several pieces with a green bean that I thought either deserved a gold sticker or none at all. Bottom line, my opinion differed from theirs. Am I right? Is CAC right? Both. Neither. Grading is a largely subjective craft once the technical aspects are addressed. I buy coins based on my own instincts, not others. That said, I truly respect and support the role played by the TPG's and CAC and gravitate toward PCGS graded coins with CAC approval for their market liquidity and the confidence I personally have in both enterprises.
Is the post geared towards unstickered PCGS coins? I've seen lots of very nice, stickered NGC coins that were shunned over the past 7 years...many or most of them at very attractive prices. I can only imagine how they would have been treated if unstickered.
How do you know that coin that does not have a CAC sticker as been sent to CAC if there is some sort of notice that it WAS sent to CAC?
After talking with a couple of dealers at FUN I've found out few more things about CAC that disturbing. Did you know that the CAC has major financial interest in the Gray Sheet? Given that it should not be a surprise the the Gray Sheet is moving toward CAC and non CAC pricing.
I'm not saying that CAC is riding a black horse, but it's not pure white horse either. It's a shade of gray. CAC needs to control the the amount of product that is on the market to keep the prices up. That means that they might reject coins that should not have been rejected. CAC is also not perfect. Those of us who know how to grade have seen their mistakes.
Bottom line - CAC is like any other grading company. You can't accept its opinions blindly. Don't give it more credit that it deserves, and keep in mind that there is a marketing / financial component to it.
I agree with your overall point, and I think it boils down to looking at the coin and deciding for yourself what it is. I have one or two CAC coins, in part because I haven't bought a lot since CAC came along, and in part because there have been some great coins that matched what I wanted that didn't have the sticker, and that was no issue.
That said, I think your particular example more has to do with buying and pricing coins properly. Let's say your coin is in a 65 holder. If you bought it as a 65, and it's not a quality 65, then you overpaid for the coin, even if not the holder. If the coin were a 64 with a sticker, then people may see it better because it's a nice/premium coin for the grade, and it's easier to justify a price. I think it's a lot harder to lower the price of an undeserving coin than it is to raise the price of a deserving coin. As such, there will likely be a better perception of coins that show upside than coins that show a downside.
Are you kidding.......Buy the COIN not the BEAN!!!!!!!
Interesting!
I might be the only person alive who just doesn't give a hoot about CAC certification. I have seen many coins with a CAC sticker that didn't deserve it. To me, it seems to be more of a marketing gimmick, because most of the time, dealers put a premium on CAC stickered coins, and I can nearly always find a coin that is as good or better, without a CAC sticker, and without the sometimes hefty premium.
Just my $0.02...
I guess to generalize the initial assertion, don't shun any coins if they're nice and priced right.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
.....
I also don't put much credence in CAC - heck, I call it CacCa. However, it does seem to add to coin values.
In reality, ANY GRADED COIN WILL CacCa - if it is under-graded. So take your non CacCa MS 64 and put into a MS63 (or lower) holder and now you have a green bean - - if the new grade is low enough, you will get the coveted gold bean!
To me, it's all a bunch of CacCa.
I still collect the same way I did before my 8 year hiatus that ended 4 years ago- As if the green bean doesn't exist.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
That would be a bunch of CacCa
Hey, what ever happened to the CAC promotion that it would establish a sight unseen market?
Is there such a market for CacCa or was that marketing baloney?
Every perceived level of "approval" is another hurdle for numismatics.
And each adds cost to the coin.
Right NOW, it's almost silly. When you get to the STICKER level, you're paying a coin dealer to tell you whether they agree with the last level you paid for.
I'll buy either way. I have both stickered and non stickered (even made a noun a verb) and have no plans to send in the ones without.
If the market FORCES me to sticker or the coin is "undesirable" I'll just quit the hobby.
We need a Nigerian Prince level next.
I have heard of coin and like much very. You me send coin and I tell its worth to you.
Will need routing number your bank for make service safe.
OK, this thread is degenerating into numismatic CaCa quickly. Moving back to the topic of discussion, what do you think of a premium, slider AU58 that grades MS62, but it doesn't get a bean because it has obvious wear on the high points? You know as well as I do that an AU58 + green bean is likely to sell for more money in an auction (in part due to the Everyman effect, but it's more of a perception that an AU58+ is likely to look better than an MS62, I think).
For example, here's my 1818/5 Bust quarter, which has plain-as-day wear on the obverse, yet it graded MS62 at NGC due to an eye appeal bump. I didn't send it to CAC, but it could conceivably be denied the bean. Should I send it in for crossover and hope I can downgrade it to a beanable AU58+?
It is a nice coin, properly graded IMO.
I wouldn't send it anywhere for regrading, crossover or CacCa.
Either works for me. The final answer rests w/you. The coin speaks for itself whether ms58 w/cac or au62.
Maybe send it to pcgs is the best "solution"?
Sticker these two.
And, YES I know 1807s are softer struck.
No stman did not say that. I quoted someone.
Nuff said.
Sorry for the mis-attribution. I'm new here and learning.
Heck no don't send it to CAC, just send me your price so I can buy it and let me worry about crossing, beaning, or not.
Seriously though, that is a coin that is all there and dripping eye appeal, price it at what it is worth if you ever sell it, if you don't intend to sell, then enjoy the coin and don't worry about holder and beaning.
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Get with it as the rub you see is old time grading...
So I think you should send that 1818/5 for a sticker as is.
Should I send it in for crossover and hope I can downgrade it to a beanable AU58+?
This is about the third or so time in about 10 days I've seen posts about collectors contemplating re-submissions for downgrades. What the hell is going on around here?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Don't worry, I'm not sending it in for a downgrade. It was more of a tongue-in-cheek remark.
Er, uh, we've reached upgrade overload???
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Thank goodness..... I can stop drinking now....
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I used to joke that one day every coin will be CACed, but after reading posts like here it seems like it could actually happen. That one day every coin will be CAC'ed even though CAC only certifies the 'top' for the grade. Oh it's rejected as a MS 64 CAC? Resubmit and get it in a MS 63 slab and then resubmit to CAC. Rinse and repeat x.x. If one grade lower + CAC is perceived as better than the grade higher, then people will start doing this.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
Wow, that would be superb! Then we can all buy entire sets of our favorite coins sight-unseen. It's be just like in 1986 when the grading services were starting out and every last coin was graded spot-on. Or maybe not.
The crack out game was ruthless in those early years (1986-1989) as so many coins came back too conservatively graded the first time in. Getting first cracks at fresh submission returns was a very profitable business model.
Impossible. I scrape them off.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Where does CAC say this?
stman quote from earlier in thread..
.> Now add on the sticker and it just might be solid for the grade. But, maybe not.
The sad part after all these years a good amount of people aren't sure what the sticker is supposed to mean.
I buy the coin.... since I do not sell coins, the sticker is not important to me. If I were a dealer, I certainly would be pursuing CAC coins.... Cheers, RickO
CAC discussions have clearly become like conversations around politics and religion. I have yet to leave one where anybody said "You know what? I think you're right. I am changing my point of view." I am happy for folks who like CAC, happy for folks who don't, and happy for folks who don't care either way. Scrape stickers off, add your own, get your CAC stickers on the back of the holder, knock yourself out. If you are happy with your world, great. Let me be happy with mine.
This thread beautifully illustrates one of the reasons why I no longer collect coins. People don't collect coins, they collect plastic and paper stickers.
To me the title of the discussion is just rock solid good advice.
Buying a nice M 64 coin in a MS 65 holder at MS 64 prices when you feel it's a nice 64 is a no brainer and indeed you're buying the coin and not the holder.
Spacehayduke's quarter is a perfect example of a coin that may not be technically a MS 62 but at any price below 62 levels is a buy.
In the early 2000's a 1797 Half in AU 58 (market price of approx 85-90K) sold on the first day of a show at the similar 130K price of a blotchy NGC 62 of questionable color that was also available. The Au was the talk of the dealers that dealt with that caliber of coin. Loved by all but it had all of the wear of a 58 and would must likely fail to get a sticker ( not even close to being a slider) but it had complete strike and gorgeous, gorgeous album bulls eye toning that none felt the buyer overpaid.
BTW the NGC 62 was available for a year passing thru 3 dealers.
I sometimes feel registry sets have skewed market values on so many levels as collectors in that area are chasing numbers on slabs versus the aesthestics of the coin.
I'm sorry but it's rhedden's quarter that I was admiring and strongly agree with spacehayduke's assesstment
In other words, they're stamp collectors?
Any PR63 Seated or Barber coin, with or without CAC approval, will have hairlines in the fields. Hairlines are to proof coins what bagmarks are to Morgans.
This is a very astute observation.
It is shame to some collectors have to feel this way. I have had some of the feelings myself. I'll say this those who blindly support CAC for marketing and blind faith reasons, and investors. If you turn off enough collectors and discourage others from getting into the hobby because games and promotions, you'll end up with nothing because all you will be doing is trading among yourselves, which won't last for long.
I think this is turning off more and more collectors. It is one of the reasons that I am downsizing my holdings. I have less than a dozen pieces that I consider irreplaceable, but due to the value, I am considering selling those too and leaving the hobby. No one collects coins any more. Very few can grade for themselves (maybe 5% of collectors).
I missed the Proof part in the OP. My bad.
One good way for jaded collectors to avoid "sticker shock" is to collect coins that don't have much spread between grades, like MS62 common date $20 Liberties. Nice coins can be chosen by an astute collector, and nobody cares if one of them is actually an MS61 or even an AU58 in disguise. Of course, some people would find collecting of common date gold Type rather boring, and they would rather spend their time in Sticker Land chasing MS65 1884-S dollars. Chasing key dates and condition rarities has always been a risky proposition, even before the advent of slabs and stickers.
I still collect both raw and slabbed. I do still enjoy raw coins very much! If I find a really nice raw coin that I feel should be encased in a slab, I enjoy submitting them to our host to see how close my grade guess is. I also believe that the slabs/holders go a long way in preservation, which is primarily why I submit coins for grading. I do admit that I am a bit of a slab snob though. I no longer buy coins in anything but a PCGS holder, or raw.
I suspect there is profit to be made in them thar beans. I've NEVER bought a coin because of a bean. Of course, if you like beans and they make you feel good, fine. Who am I to judge?