Flippers, Certifications, and US Mint destroyed 2016 gold coins
2ltdjorn
Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭✭
I am glad I am a collector.
Between the flippers, grading services, and the us mint, they both have destroyed the 2016 gold coins market.
Between botched releases, household limits, price drops, and re releases....
They have prob destroyed any prospect of making any money on those.
WTB... errors, New Orleans gold, and circulated 20th key date coins!
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Comments
You may be right. On the other hand, I'm guessing 2016 will generate some real sleepers that increase in value in the future--as long as there are enough people to keep collecting coins at all. Also, Congress deserves a lot of blame for mandating series such as the First Spouse series, which has sucked creativity from the hobby for a full decade now. Still like the pucks, though this was an awful design year for them (except TR). My favorite coin of the year has to be the new Walker. The mint did a terrific job with that one.
It was a good idea poorly executed.
Great hobby. Too easy , too fun.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Yep....sad thing is that they ran focus groups to get feedback. I was part of one, locally.
In there, I was probably the only "collector" of just US coins/designs ranging from classic to modern.
Some of the others were just occasional buyers from the mint, foreign coin collectors, commemorative collectors, etc. Some of them liked this idea.
I didn't. I gave feedback. Use silver. Double-date the coin. Make it as accurate and representative as possible. Don't go overboard with packaging and costs. etc etc etc.
90 minutes.
Even among those that liked the idea of doing these in gold, they still screwed up from the feedback. No 3pc set. Not actual size. Other feedback.
They paid all of us $100, each, for the time we spent there. They were doing this in multiple cities.
Makes me think of the government waste, once again, as, if you spend the money to get feedback, allow for that feedback and change. Don't go into it with your mind already made up and no real change possible.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I've participated in several focus groups in my industry and always came away with more knowledge. Hopefully you did too @Bochiman and I'm wondering did product Quality get duscussed. I know I'm essentially done buying from the Mint due to the consistently poor quality of mint offerings.
Luckily I have a coin shop that alliws me pick through silver proof sets so I can scratch that itch.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
What? "Destroyed any prospect of making any money on those."??
Are you forgetting about "Coin Collectors" or is it simply all about the buck?
The name is LEE!
Well at least you got $100.
I attended one of these forums about 10 years ago when the questions revolved around reverse proofs. I forget what I got paid.
The name is LEE!
Gold spot prices destroyed the money making. Some years "peanuts" some years "shells." 2016 is not alone.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
flipping is always at the flipper's risk.
Whatever happened to the collectors' desire to enjoy the coins? I've got a lot of modern commemorative coins, and about the only thing almost all of them have going for them is their melt value. If I was concerned about making money, I would not have bought them in the first place.
The fairest distribtuon for any modern mint product is to make it available to anyone who wants to buy it during the calendar year. There should be no games with "linited editions" that all get bought up by fippers who make money off of those who might work for a living and can't get to a computer at noontime on the day of issue.
Some sets, like the Jackie Robinson and to a lesser extent Smithsonian issues, were not popular when they sold by the mint and are now "scarce." That is the way it should be. No grames, just "scarce" because few were sold. The First Lady coins might become that, but for now they don't have the demand factor to go along with the low mintages.
I hated the way the Truman and Kennedy presidential dollar and medal sets were sold. I would have probably bought them at the issue price, but after the flippers doubled that, I said to HEQ%^&*% with it. Let the flippers make their free dinner or whatever they got after they cornered the market.
Ironically Harry Truman was the "common man's president" who honored his supporters on his inaugural medal. If Harry had been alive today, he would have not been a fan of the mint's distribution policy.
As far as the gold goes, I hated what was purportedly a Mercury dime, because it came out looking like a cartoon version of the original. Quarter and half were better in my opinion.
What turns me off to all of this however, with all due respect to PCGS (and NGC) is the myriad of labels, "autographs," and essentially false pop reports. Those reports enable flippers to place a manufactured "rarity" on sites like eBay, where while fifteen hundred PR 70s might be available, there are only 43 with a Mercanti signature, 106 First Strike, but, wait for it...
Only 3 PR 70 / Mercanti / First Strike, at triple the asking price, and of course...
Only 1 with all of the above, And a gold foil label.
That rarity could easily be worth $50,000 vs $500, for a lowly, base, plain Jane, PR 70.
How is a young collector to make their way through that potential minefield?
Stepping down from soapbox.
Btw, I love pretty much everything else PCGS does. A class act, with superior grading skills, but I'd love to see a return to basics, which is what they do very well.
EC
Special labels are the equivalent of limited edition cars created in the aftermarket. You can appreciate and collect Ford Mustangs without buying a Shelby GT or other popular special version. Young coin collectors can avoid the potential minefield by simply sticking with basic TPG graded or raw coins.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I don't mind the flippers not getting a chance to make money. The mint needs to make enough of a product for demand and distribute the product in a fair manner. The gold 2016 coins I will be buying on the drop in gold and will stack some at near bullion levels these are never going to be rare in any grade or form and they will cool a lot in the secondary market. The mint set a high issue price and killed a lot of real collector interest.
Bad program that was poorly executed as already said.
I'd call a Shelby gt a variety
these are bumper stickers.
i agree, but not with the double dated coin. for an anniversary coin, i would have much rather seen the clad version in circulation. that would generate new interest for those that see coins every day. for the collector, i would have issued silver and that way collectors of those series would have another date to add to their sets.
Flippers were making easy money for years ...greed ....may have done them in ,and also a smarter Mint setting higher prices to take the premium out of after market sales .. the end probably came with the President coin sets ,where some flippers ,using computer ordering programs gobbled up hundreds of sets ..vs.. . 2 set HH limit for others.
Anybody see this notice? The gold Merc will be available.....again!
https://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/index1843.html?action=press_release&id=1843
Man, I'm in the minority - am enjoying the coins in spite of the occasional poor quality.
Looking forward to seeing the them in a 3 coin holder.
Focus groups are like committees - the strongest opinion possible is often that of the weakest member.
Don't get me wrong, I have 2 sets of these. I do favor them, and they look good in PCGS plastic....
I took part in a Mint focus group some years back, while I was still in Seattle. I have seen these in other venues.... a program is developed, someone higher in the chain says 'Why not check and see what the customer wants?'.... the development group is not happy, since they already have preconceived concepts - and likely an advanced program - and they 'know best' what will sell - 'My idea is perfect - just like my kid.'. However, when given direction, they follow through and hold the 'focus' groups.... then, format the feedback to do exactly as they planned. They do not understand that the market is actually a rich source of information and mining it for ideas and program refinements could result in much higher sales volumes. Cheers, RickO
As far as the gold goes, I hated what was purportedly a Mercury dime, because** it came out looking like a cartoon version of the original**. Quarter and half were better in my opinion.
That's my main problem with collecting moderns (besides there being just too many of them, in too high of condition, with almost no attrition), the appearance right from the start, maybe it's the computers and other modern technology they use now such as the stippled "frost", simply makes them look like a mockery of the originals, for the profit motive, rather than Tributes. It seems like the Art of coining suffered a long, slow decline, punctuated by a few exceptions, and is now dead.
I generally don't buy coins younger than myself and prefer those from 4 or more generations past, but did make exceptions for the 2007 Jefferson's liberty in MS and Proof, because I wanted to get the draped bust obverse design in gold, despite being disappointed there was no eagle on the reverse. Also got one 2009 UHR double eagle, because, well, you know, the 1907 is almost every collectors dream coin or at least among the top 10, and of course always wanted one.
But both coins failed to impress me as a collector, though. I looked at them with a glass a few times at first, hefted them (in their capsules, of course) showed them to a couple people, etc, then put them away and rarely look again, there's just not much to see, and of course, can't touch On the other hand, I can go back and enjoy looking at, holding in bare hands, and thinking about and closely studying an old worn 200 year old coin over and over again, and still find something new to see on them.
I thought I'd make another exception to my not buying modern bias for the 2016 dime, quarter, and half, but remembered my earlier experience and decided to pass, and now I'm glad. I may pick them up if they ever get closer to melt value, particularly if gold goes down and I'm buying more of the metal anyway, but will not pay any significant premium.
The whole slabbing and flipping of modern products perspective, can't comment on, as don't participate in that aspect of coins
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The mint should not be producing coins for flipping. They should not be "manufacturing rarities".
Produce to demand and let the aftermarket decide what will become rare and desirable.
As for the grading services- consider that all of these coins are produced in nearly perfect pristine condition. These are not for circulation and are not bouncing around in bags getting marked up. Why anyone wants to pay to get them certified and graded 69 or 70 is beyond me. And first strike similarly seems silly for limited issues. But I guess some collectors want that. The graders are just catering to that demand.
I do not blame nor condemn PCGS and NGC for creating and then using their creation for business purposes. As a collector, I know that labels and signatures don't really make the coin and as such, do not bother chasing them.
Others may not feel that way but it in no way disparages the coin collecting business beyond a sour grapes attitude.
The ONLY real threat to the coin collecting hobby/business would be if coins disappeared entirely and that would take several generations to have any effect. Everything else is just business as usual.
The name is LEE!
Determining "demand" is the difficult part and as for the "flipping" aspect. the US Treasury and US Mint are very open about what they will produce, how many will be produced, and when they go on sale.
Folks that really want to get what they offer at the original offer price will make arrangements to do so. And yes, I understand that not everybody has the ability to login at noon ET to join the melee but surely they know others that do.
The name is LEE!