I'm not a scientist but I know we have a few chemists here that can chime in on this.... I think it is possible that if the entire slab is left in a closed container filled with the gas of choice it will penetrate the slab depending on the size of the molecules. This assuming the slabs actually are sealed completely without any degree of error.
@ms70 said:
I think it is possible that if the entire slab is left in a closed container filled with the gas of choice it will penetrate the slab depending on the size of the molecules.
The slabs are NOT airtight. If anyone doesn't believe me, take a slabbed coin you don't like and submerge it in a bowl of water overnight. So, all you have to do is enclose the slab in a container with gas at a higher pressure than the normal atmosphere. The pressure differential would force the gas into the lower-pressure slab interior; basic chemistry and molecular size won't matter (because that's way smaller than the gaps in the slab).
Persuing choice countermarked coinage on 2 reales.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
@ms70 said:
I think it is possible that if the entire slab is left in a closed container filled with the gas of choice it will penetrate the slab depending on the size of the molecules.
The slabs are NOT airtight. If anyone doesn't believe me, take a slabbed coin you don't like and submerge it in a bowl of water overnight. So, all you have to do is enclose the slab in a container with gas at a higher pressure than the normal atmosphere. The pressure differential would force the gas into the lower-pressure slab interior; basic chemistry and molecular size won't matter (because that's way smaller than the gaps in the slab).
The newest holders, introduced mid-2015, are indeed airtight.
Lance.
From PCGS's website:
...said PCGS Co-Founder David Hall. "In addition to the advanced security features, the new holder's airtight design will help prevent spotting and toning of coins."
It appears to me that the gas hasn't entered the slab as effectively where the prongs are on the coin. That part of the coin shows less toning on 2 of the 3.
@ms70 said:
I think it is possible that if the entire slab is left in a closed container filled with the gas of choice it will penetrate the slab depending on the size of the molecules.
The slabs are NOT airtight. If anyone doesn't believe me, take a slabbed coin you don't like and submerge it in a bowl of water overnight. So, all you have to do is enclose the slab in a container with gas at a higher pressure than the normal atmosphere. The pressure differential would force the gas into the lower-pressure slab interior; basic chemistry and molecular size won't matter (because that's way smaller than the gaps in the slab).
The smart money would probably put the slabbed coins into a device that could be evacuated, suck the air out and bleed a little toner gas back into it. Be a lot easier to get the gas to the inside of the slab that way.
The newest holders, introduced mid-2015, are indeed airtight.
Lance.
From PCGS's website:
...said PCGS Co-Founder David Hall. "In addition to the advanced security features, the new holder's airtight design will help prevent spotting and toning of coins."
Yep. There is even a promotional video out there that has a PCGS rep submerging a new slab into a fish tank.
I see this as yet another reason for PCGS to incorporate imaging of every coin graded into their process. Even quick, average images available at the PCGS site would put a damper on this type of activity.
I have been buying, and collecting toners for many years. When I see these I think they suck so I wont buy them. True toning looks better hands down it is easy to see the difference.
Doubts have been cast on edynamicmarketing for months now. I have been observing this situation for months. Not much I can personally do about it. To see the irrefutable evidence in this thread of altered coins after they were slabbed is very disturbing. They look blatant AT and wouldn't fool me, but they would fool some if not just for the fact they are professionally graded as NT! Similar looking to MANOFCOINS result of gassing coins in slabs. Artificial blues mostly. Not good for the coin market. This has been a very informative thread!
I have existed since the creation of this world and will exist until its end. Only my form will change. For these 80 human life years, I have the benefit of having a functioning body and consciousness. I will not waste this opportunity.
It seems trivially easy to take a quick photo of each coin just before or just after it is sealed. It could be automated and wouldn't add much work. The benefits would be obvious and the competition is already doing it.
Nice work gtstang! I'll stand by my previous statement that there are others getting them past the grading room. All of these have been offered by the same Ebay Seller. Anyone else see a pattern here? Sorry if one of these is yours, I own one these also.
Were these straight graded or gassed after slabbing? This is disturbing.
I hope I don't come across as being an ass because that's not my intention but did you read this thread at all? I think your question would be answered and you would find yourself even more disturbed as I was.
@1Bustcollector...A hypodermic, used carefully can fill the hole .. done right, it is virtually undetectable.... Darn clever these coin doctors....Cheers, RickO
@LTOMCC said:
On the plus side if you like toned coins, after years of searching, and sifting through terrible vendors who overcharge, I finally found the perfect place for me. Six months ago I ordered a coin off of eBay from another vendor that cost $500. Weeks later, I discovered almost the exact same coin from edynamicmarketing, that was of superior quality and only cost $150. The more I looked on their eBay page, and the more I comparison shopped, I realized that almost every other vendor is gouging their customers. Also they stay very true to their 14 day return policy and some of the toned coins i've gotten that I just didn't like or i thought were AT I sent them back with no issues.
This does not excuse fraudulently trying to take advantage of consumers. They buy a straight graded common date coin for around $50, gas it in the slab then market it as a straight graded "monster toner" for $2k or more. They are also misrepresenting PCGS in the process by doing so.
Interesting ... it looks like LTOMCC's post has been deleted. It seems that the mods can delete one post rather than an entire thread. I am unsure if they could do this before?
I know that I, and a couple of others clicked on the "flag" link. I wonder if that alerted a mod to the post... I also wonder if PCGS has been alerted to the coins that are the subject of the op...
All of these PCGS holders have the three prong ring. The darkest toning area on the coins start where the ring does not make contact with the coin. It appears he is drilling into the cavity area of the ring as an entry point for the gas, and these holders most likely have from one to three entry holes.
I bought a coin from edynamicmarketing out of curiosity to see what was going on. A hundred bucks for a little education. Here is what I found out.
The photos are not juiced and it is not the lighting. The coin looks very much like the listing and maybe a little better. It is actually kind of pretty. It looks a lot like the ASE that come from old PCI holders. Shades of red/rose and a little bit of orange/gold and a tiny bit of gold.
The seller had 20 such coins for sale. He was selling them for about $60 to $100 bucks. They all had the same colors and nearly identical toning patterns.
The holder does not appear to have any holes or unusual marks on it. The seems are intact and I don't see any evidence of tampering.
The label is wavy. Possibly from having been damp.
The hologram label is bubbled and has kind of a leopard pattern where there are holes in the label.
It rattles. If you tap it lightly with you finger, it rattles loudly. It even rattles just from gently shaking it. I would say that it rattles as much as any old "rattler" holder
There is a crap ton of text here, so forgive me if I am repeating what someone has already said.
The theory is that there are microscopic holes drilled in the slab and gas is passed in. Gas can certainly pass through microscopic holes.
Since a true untouched slab is presumably water tight, would a way to discern if a slab has been tampered with in terms of microscopic holes be to submerge the slab in question? I wonder if water can get through microscopic holes. My guess is over time it could. Maybe over time a drop of water would be moved to the inside of the slab?
Looks like that hologram has been damaged by whatever they are doing to the coins. Looked at several on my desk, and they are all intact and as new. Very interesting.
@ms70 said:
I think it is possible that if the entire slab is left in a closed container filled with the gas of choice it will penetrate the slab depending on the size of the molecules.
The slabs are NOT airtight. If anyone doesn't believe me, take a slabbed coin you don't like and submerge it in a bowl of water overnight. So, all you have to do is enclose the slab in a container with gas at a higher pressure than the normal atmosphere. The pressure differential would force the gas into the lower-pressure slab interior; basic chemistry and molecular size won't matter (because that's way smaller than the gaps in the slab).
The newest holders, introduced mid-2015, are indeed airtight.
Lance.
From PCGS's website:
...said PCGS Co-Founder David Hall. "In addition to the advanced security features, the new holder's airtight design will help prevent spotting and toning of coins."
There's already been at least one reported case of a new slab coming apart at the seams.
@ms70 said:
I think it is possible that if the entire slab is left in a closed container filled with the gas of choice it will penetrate the slab depending on the size of the molecules.
The slabs are NOT airtight. If anyone doesn't believe me, take a slabbed coin you don't like and submerge it in a bowl of water overnight. So, all you have to do is enclose the slab in a container with gas at a higher pressure than the normal atmosphere. The pressure differential would force the gas into the lower-pressure slab interior; basic chemistry and molecular size won't matter (because that's way smaller than the gaps in the slab).
The newest holders, introduced mid-2015, are indeed airtight.
Lance.
From PCGS's website:
...said PCGS Co-Founder David Hall. "In addition to the advanced security features, the new holder's airtight design will help prevent spotting and toning of coins."
There's already been at least one reported case of a new slab coming apart at the seams.
Yes, that's so. I found one this summer (below). Of course that was because of a defect in assembling the holder, not because properly sealed ones aren't airtight.
Lance.
Comments
Looks like they were "gassed" to me.
they are purchased white in slab
a few days after delivery, they are listed with what I consider non-attractive toning
the guy has quick turnaround in his ?added value? 'process'
I'm not a scientist but I know we have a few chemists here that can chime in on this.... I think it is possible that if the entire slab is left in a closed container filled with the gas of choice it will penetrate the slab depending on the size of the molecules. This assuming the slabs actually are sealed completely without any degree of error.
The slabs are NOT airtight. If anyone doesn't believe me, take a slabbed coin you don't like and submerge it in a bowl of water overnight.
So, all you have to do is enclose the slab in a container with gas at a higher pressure than the normal atmosphere. The pressure differential would force the gas into the lower-pressure slab interior; basic chemistry and molecular size won't matter (because that's way smaller than the gaps in the slab).
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
I di not think that PCGS will do anything about this!
The newest holders, introduced mid-2015, are indeed airtight.
Lance.
From PCGS's website:
...said PCGS Co-Founder David Hall. "In addition to the advanced security features, the new holder's airtight design will help prevent spotting and toning of coins."
It appears to me that the gas hasn't entered the slab as effectively where the prongs are on the coin. That part of the coin shows less toning on 2 of the 3.
The smart money would probably put the slabbed coins into a device that could be evacuated, suck the air out and bleed a little toner gas back into it. Be a lot easier to get the gas to the inside of the slab that way.
Seller of the 22 Peace Dollar in ANACS 64 only charges $3.50 for shipping on a "$2500" item.
Perhaps we should flood him with $16 melt value offers since it appears doctored.
This is why the premiums on toners make me nervous.
Thank you sir. I can't do anything about this but it's good to see what happened in black and white. Red and yellow too!
Yep. There is even a promotional video out there that has a PCGS rep submerging a new slab into a fish tank.
I see this as yet another reason for PCGS to incorporate imaging of every coin graded into their process. Even quick, average images available at the PCGS site would put a damper on this type of activity.
My YouTube Channel
I have been buying, and collecting toners for many years. When I see these I think they suck so I wont buy them. True toning looks better hands down it is easy to see the difference.
If PCGS posted every graded coin image like NGC does, this would help all of us. This guys is an idiot!
Doubts have been cast on edynamicmarketing for months now. I have been observing this situation for months. Not much I can personally do about it. To see the irrefutable evidence in this thread of altered coins after they were slabbed is very disturbing. They look blatant AT and wouldn't fool me, but they would fool some if not just for the fact they are professionally graded as NT! Similar looking to MANOFCOINS result of gassing coins in slabs. Artificial blues mostly. Not good for the coin market. This has been a very informative thread!
Is there a way to officially inform PCGS of our concerns regarding this matter?
Hopefully they'll see this thread.
My YouTube Channel
Yes. PM Mark Stephenson or Don Willis.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
This guy is a freaking crook and a bad one. No question about that. PCGS should be on this like stink on you know what.
@DonWillis and @MarkStephenson
Let's see if these tags work.
It's been noted in the past that there is micro bubbling on the sticker on the reverse of the slab as well. Maybe a result of heat?
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
It seems trivially easy to take a quick photo of each coin just before or just after it is sealed. It could be automated and wouldn't add much work. The benefits would be obvious and the competition is already doing it.
Wow. Nice find, gtstang.
Nice work gtstang! I'll stand by my previous statement that there are others getting them past the grading room. All of these have been offered by the same Ebay Seller. Anyone else see a pattern here? Sorry if one of these is yours, I own one these also.
YUCK!
Were these straight graded or gassed after slabbing? This is disturbing.
I hope I don't come across as being an ass because that's not my intention but did you read this thread at all? I think your question would be answered and you would find yourself even more disturbed as I was.
@1Bustcollector...A hypodermic, used carefully can fill the hole .. done right, it is virtually undetectable.... Darn clever these coin doctors....Cheers, RickO
kpl is different than edynamicmarketing (and all of his aliases). I believe kpl uses a combination of chemicals + heat.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
All of the coins above made it through the grading room and reside in straight graded holders. These were not gassed in the holders IMO.
I agree. The opposite is true for edynamic.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
⬆
OH YEAH!
edited to add.............. one post, I wonder who that could be??? LOL
This does not excuse fraudulently trying to take advantage of consumers. They buy a straight graded common date coin for around $50, gas it in the slab then market it as a straight graded "monster toner" for $2k or more. They are also misrepresenting PCGS in the process by doing so.
Collector, occasional seller
Interesting ... it looks like LTOMCC's post has been deleted. It seems that the mods can delete one post rather than an entire thread. I am unsure if they could do this before?
I know that I, and a couple of others clicked on the "flag" link. I wonder if that alerted a mod to the post... I also wonder if PCGS has been alerted to the coins that are the subject of the op...
.
All of these PCGS holders have the three prong ring. The darkest toning area on the coins start where the ring does not make contact with the coin. It appears he is drilling into the cavity area of the ring as an entry point for the gas, and these holders most likely have from one to three entry holes.
I bought a coin from edynamicmarketing out of curiosity to see what was going on. A hundred bucks for a little education. Here is what I found out.
There is a crap ton of text here, so forgive me if I am repeating what someone has already said.
The theory is that there are microscopic holes drilled in the slab and gas is passed in. Gas can certainly pass through microscopic holes.
Since a true untouched slab is presumably water tight, would a way to discern if a slab has been tampered with in terms of microscopic holes be to submerge the slab in question? I wonder if water can get through microscopic holes. My guess is over time it could. Maybe over time a drop of water would be moved to the inside of the slab?
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, coinlieutenant, bigjpst, and joebb21.
Looks like that hologram has been damaged by whatever they are doing to the coins. Looked at several on my desk, and they are all intact and as new. Very interesting.
There's already been at least one reported case of a new slab coming apart at the seams.
The condition of the hologram and label insert are the best evidence indicating that the slab has likely been tampered with.
Here are a couple more from seller with damaged holograms:
Yes, that's so. I found one this summer (below). Of course that was because of a defect in assembling the holder, not because properly sealed ones aren't airtight.
Lance.
@slider23 The label in the holder is also warped.
I've had one too.
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Anyway, it looks like he might be submerging the slab into a solution? Possibly applying pressure or heat?
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
They otta look this guy up. What a slime.