1857 Seated Half Dollar currently at PCGS, Grade Opinions?

boyernumismatics · September 22, 2016 12:14PM

Hi all. I've got this 1857 Seated Half at PCGS right now on a regular secure submission and should have grades back tomorrow. I'll attach photos below. I would love to hear and any all input on this topic. Thanks!

May I note this coin has amazing eye appeal!

logger7 · September 22, 2016 12:21PM

Unimpaired fresh looking surfaces; work back from that perspective with minor issues. Just my first impression; AU58.

boyernumismatics · September 22, 2016 12:26PM

This coin was cracked from a new NGC MS61. Since I don't and can't trust NGC for various reasons, my customer (who's coin this is), decided to join in with me to do a shared submission to see what PCGS has to say. In our circle of comrades, we all agree on 63,64. However, with how PCGS has been lately, I would have better luck playing roulette in Vegas than guessing what a coin is going to come back as.

Thank you very much, and we value your opinion greatly!

Cheers!

NumisOxide · September 22, 2016 12:28PM

Wear on the high points, I would say AU53-55. Depends on how much luster is left to get a 58

boyernumismatics · September 22, 2016 12:31PM

Originally posted by: coinJP

Wear on the high points, I would say AU53-55. Depends on how much luster is left to get a 58

Sorry about my error in my reply to the guy above. It was cracked from an NGC MS61. I go through so many and break so many slabs it's hard to keep track.

JBN · September 22, 2016 12:34PM

Looking at eagle's right leg talons, Liberty's hair, shoulder and leg - my first impression was 53.

Nice reverse die crack.

I think your expectation of a mint state grade is ambitious.

Best of luck. Nice half dollar.

boyernumismatics · September 22, 2016 12:37PM

What's the fun in this business without risk, right?

I'll post the grades when they're posted. Likely around lunchtime central tomorrow, Friday.

roadrunner · September 22, 2016 12:46PM

Before I read that you cracked this out from an NGC61 holder my guess would have been MS62/63. It has the typical weak strike issues of the year that make it look worn. While there's some flatness on Lib's right leg, I don't think that's wear based on other high points. Hard to judge the field luster. It looks a bit scuffy from the photos...indicative of a 61.

Understand that it would be most unusual for either PCGS or NGC to grade a seated half MS61 when it was an honest MS63/64. I've owned dozens of them and it's never happened to me. 61's are graded that way for a reason....usually broken field luster or slight high point rub. MS61 no motto halves tend to be glorified AU58's with a little bit more field luster.

I'd rate the odds of going higher than MS62 on your next submission as no more than 0-10%. And the odds of going PCGS AU58 following an NGC MS61 are probably 20-40%. I think if you submit this coin multiple times the grades will range from 58 to 62. 61/62 is what I'd pick....from the photos.

golden · September 22, 2016 12:51PM

I will go with 58.

logger7 · September 22, 2016 12:56PM

And what would be the maximum that CAC would like it at? 61? It has enough originality to be pleasing to them.

oih82w8 · September 22, 2016 2:08PM

I would give it an AU55...58 on a good day.

92cc fan · September 22, 2016 2:15PM

Very nice coin. Without seeing it in hand I'd say ms61.

panexpoguy · September 22, 2016 2:22PM

Based on the photos I would estimate Au53, but roadrunners explanation leads me to think I am wrong. Still, that is my guess based on the pics.

BustHalfBrian · September 22, 2016 2:41PM

I can't tell a thing from those pics. How about some without an "ebay tilt"?

mannie gray · September 22, 2016 2:49PM

Originally posted by: BustHalfBrian

I can't tell a thing from those pics. How about some without an "ebay tilt"?

I agree.

dib · September 22, 2016 2:58PM

These pictures are tough, but my first instinct was that it's a really attractive AU55.

crazyhounddog · September 22, 2016 3:27PM

From the images, it looks to be a 62/63. I can't say I see any rub, looks like a slightly weaker strike with my old eyes. All the best of luck to you.
Edited to say that I find this piece very attractive.

lordmarcovan · September 22, 2016 4:17PM

I think it's attractive, too, and would agree with the crazyhounddog's 62/63 assessment; more likely the former.

TPRC · September 22, 2016 8:45PM

I love the look. I guess I'm in the 61/62 camp.

ricko · September 22, 2016 9:16PM

The enlarged photograph may be doing this coin a disservice, I would go with the 61/62 estimate....look forward to your result. Cheers, RickO

boyernumismatics · September 22, 2016 11:24PM

Originally posted by: BustHalfBrian

I can't tell a thing from those pics. How about some without an "ebay tilt"?

Sorry, I was going for the "color capture" more than anything in these pictures. Hopefully today I get grades back, and I'll surely post the True Views when they are posted as well!

Thank you all for your opinions. The people who are correct on their guesses get...bragging rights!

Danye West · September 23, 2016 12:31AM

58

roadrunner · September 23, 2016 12:33AM

When grading this for wear, do it by looking at the strongest details, not the weakest. That means only the upper arrowhead, the strongest olive leaves, sharpest interior wing feathers, the left claw, her arms, strongest drapery folds, her left leg vs. right leg, etc. The head, stars, date, lower rock, her left foot, and other details just can't effectively be used in this case.

asheland · September 23, 2016 12:38AM

My guess is AU55

Nice coin and

Baley · September 23, 2016 12:46AM

the reverse fields and legend between 9 and 12 o'clock are going to make it difficult with any mint state grade at PCGS

I'll guess they genuine it for altered surfaces or damage, if it grades it might be high AU, it appears to be an attractive coin otherwise

TwoSides2aCoin · September 23, 2016 1:25AM

I see an upgrade in the coin's future. And a sticker maybe. Who knows ? I hate guessing.

MFH · September 23, 2016 5:21AM

I'm in the AU 58 camp.

I like the coin - just not for a MS 61.
Most 61's are 58 anyway.

DoubleEagle59 · September 23, 2016 5:50AM

Originally posted by: BustHalfBrian
I can't tell a thing from those pics. How about some without an "ebay tilt"?

Absolutely!!

My experience with the 'ebay tilt' is surface imperfections are always hidden resulting in the coin looking a great deal better than actually 'in hand', especially for brilliant white coins.

DollarAfterDollar · September 23, 2016 5:57AM

She appears to have no left breast. I'm thinking AU55. No way this gets MS 62-or MS 63.

Shouldn't have cracked it.

roadrunner · September 23, 2016 6:16AM

Originally posted by: DollarAfterDollar

She appears to have no left breast.....

A fairly minor strike issue on seated halves. It's not wear. And for anything but MS66 and higher not much of a distraction/deduction.

How many Liberty Walking halves have no hand? How many Type 2 SLQ's have no head? How many MS64 "O" mint Morgan dollars have minimal to no breast feathers? Answer to all...."a lot."

1857 halves are one of the more weakly struck of all seated halves...and probably leads the Philly mints. This one is probably a little better than average. Often seen with no upper head detail, half or more of the stars flat, etc.

BillJones · September 23, 2016 6:23AM

I'd say that this coin would be maxed out at AU-55. There is wear on it for sure on Ms. Liberty's bust and knee, and the dull spot to the right of the eagle's wing on the reverse is disturbing. That could be some surface damage. At any rate I would not want to see that on a Mint State graded coin.

roadrunner · September 23, 2016 6:29AM

The dull spot to the right of the eagle's wing in the reverse field extends into peripherals around the lettering and rim, both low points that don't see a loss of luster very easily. So the identical coloration over those areas is a bit puzzling. It could just be toning, something accentuated by the lighting, etc.

So I'm hesitant to jump on that field luster being stripped away. Why not the other reverse fields or the equally exposed obverse fields? The opposite side of the reverse around 4 o'clock has a touch of that same coloration near the rim, where no damage/abuse should occur.

Wabbit2313 · September 23, 2016 6:46AM

I could see a 62 on this. If you get the shaft like some of mine lately, cleaned!

roadrunner · September 23, 2016 7:08AM

This issue here is not whether this coin has any wear or lacks full 100% mint luster. The issue is will it grade "mint state" at PCGS/NGC. That's a purely market acceptable opinion. I've seen TPG graded MS65 seated coins with obvious high point rubbing, and sometimes not even 60% luster....in 1 case, no obverse field luster. In fact I know of a MS67 seated half that is rubbed and has about 85% luster. Even with all that, I'd accept a market grade of 63/64. The no wear, no rub, 100% luster standard for no motto seated halves typically means starting at grades of MS64/65.

kaz · September 23, 2016 10:18PM

I just don't see any wear, from these photos, so I'll guess 61-62. Grading from photos is always a challenge.

boyernumismatics · November 7, 2016 3:18PM

This coin came back AU58 from PCGS the first time. Resubmitted it right after and it got MS62.. The swing of the grades, eh?

JeffMTampa · November 7, 2016 3:32PM

I would go 58+ on it, but that's just my take (woth nothing).

oih82w8 · November 7, 2016 3:39PM

The old 58/62 switcheroo...wanna play best two out of three?

grip · November 7, 2016 3:46PM

Nice coin. I see it as a 62.

BigMoose · November 7, 2016 3:52PM

It graded PCGS 58-- coinfacts cert #81749338

boyernumismatics · November 7, 2016 4:42PM

@BigMoose said:
It graded PCGS 58-- coinfacts cert #81749338

...Yes, the first time...but the second time around it hit 62.

roadrunner · November 7, 2016 4:59PM

Good job not to settle for the AU58. Are you still going to try for the 63/64? It might have taken multiple tries to get the NGC MS61 the first time around. Coins with significant strike issues like this date have a lot of volatility in the grading rooms. I called it pretty well the first time around.

I'd rate the odds of going higher than MS62 on your next submission as no more than 0-10%. And the odds of going PCGS AU58 following an NGC MS61 are probably 20-40%. I think if you submit this coin multiple times the grades will range from 58 to 62. 61/62 is what I'd pick....from the photos.

7Jaguars · November 7, 2016 5:36PM

I like the appearance of the coin and would have it at 62, maybe 63 and agree with RR comments about soft strike, etc. For those grading 53, please open your inventory of such for sale! Not my coin or have any vested interests.

Unknown · November 7, 2016 7:07PM

This content has been removed.

roadrunner · November 7, 2016 7:10PM

@afford said:
What kind of holder was it in, details on that please?

Read the post. Started out as NGC 61. Cracked out and recently went PCGS 58 followed by PCGS MS62. So 3 tries and 3 diff grades. Not as unusual as you think. I think it's time for the dealer to stand pat.

Wabbit2313 · November 7, 2016 8:22PM

Nice and no way that was not MS. I hope the grading issues get resolved sooner rather than later. Nice on the grade finally! Nice coin!!

Cougar1978 · November 8, 2016 6:55AM

Can hardly wait for grade. From the photo it looks much nicer than just a 61.

As far as MS vs AU I await our hosts response.

asheland · November 8, 2016 8:02AM

Well done! Perhaps it was just the picture. Looks AU in the picture. But I trust the MS grade you got.

boyernumismatics · November 8, 2016 8:03AM

@Cougar1978 said:
Can hardly wait for grade. From the photo it looks much nicer than just a 61.

As far as MS vs AU I await our hosts response.

second try, it got AU58 at PCGS. Third try, it got MS62. Sticking with 62.

1857 Seated Half Dollar currently at PCGS, Grade Opinions?

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