Ok, thanks for the correction. I took a look and there is a 1740/30 in 64 at NGC and a few other 63's. This is the finest at PCGS.
So the Mexico 1851ZsOM in PCGS MS64 doesn't count? And I haven't even bothered to look at other mints. Nor ANACS.
Realize that only a very small percentage of world coins are slabbed and ever will be. There are many fabulous coins out there and to judge "finest known" by the PCGS census is foolish.
I have been a serious dedicated census researcher on bust quarters for over 24 years, which includes researching as many auction catalogues as one can get their hands into. Bust quarters are a very small niche category and many have become encapsulated throughout the years - but there are still a ton out there that have not surfaced for numerous reasons. World coins are a different ball game to me. I'm very new at this but realize it will take my lifetime (plus) to capture anything close to recording proper census material through existing sources. We can only rely on what is publicly available, although I'm sure there are always private sources that might be much more accurate. Funny, who are "the experts" that can add/contribute to Boosibri's statement and back it up?
Another point concerning condition census or finest knowns: if it's not published then it can't be used by others.
I for one will say that I will always be amazed to see such a beautifully high grade 4 Reales with a great Norweb provenance. Congrats!
Persuing choice countermarked coinage on 2 reales.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
In 20+ years of concerted searching, this is the single nicest Pillar 4 Reales we've ever had the chance to buy, and it just happens to be this rare and seldom seen early issue.
In other words, all the others were fully/over priced and he couldn't make any money on them.
Folks, regardless of what was paid, who described what "the best", and whether it was justified - it's still a beautiful coin that deserves to be admired.
Finest known statements do raise eyebrows - and then we all want to check it out.
Adjustment made.
On another note: I'd be interested if there was something/anything in the making geared towards colonial portrait Mexico City 1/2 Reales.
Persuing choice countermarked coinage on 2 reales.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Awe, hopefully it's no biggie. Just concerned parents when it comes to our lil children. No harm, no foul.
Ok, so I got this in my files. Anyone ever seen "die trials" like this on the other series?
And secondly, how many 1, 2, 4, 8 Reales have the miss spelling of Carolus?
Hey, OriginalDan, I like the chop mark on the 1785 - looks like a Bearded Chopmark!
Persuing choice countermarked coinage on 2 reales.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
I hear ya. Spelling blunders could definitely be a red flag for counterfeit.
But to argue the opposing side ... and please keep in mind I do not know anything about the factual statistics here ...
Carolus is simply the Latinized version of Charles, as I'm sure you all recall. I would not be surprised if phonetic pronunciations and/or space limitations in the design yielded some shortened versions. Carlus and Carols, said a certain way, do sound more like "Charles" no?
1Bustcollector, assuming that 1770 Real (?) is a thin sliver of silver, that's very cool and very rare. I can tell you all about them if you don't already know.
By the way, sorry to "stir the pot" here, but when someone starts parroting marketing pablum as numismatic knowledge, that rubs me the wrong way.
Actually, the "Carols" I just posted is real and I later slabbed it by PCGS. I know, it doesn't mean counterfeits do not exist. This 1/2 is also listed in Krause. I just haven't really searched out the other denominations.
I just looked up originalDans 8 real. Krause does list that date (1804) and spelling (Carlus) - pretty cool.
Note to Pruebus: Yes, anything I could learn is always helpful. I know that particular 1/2 real sold via Heritage. Where it is today is anybody's guess.
Persuing choice countermarked coinage on 2 reales.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Dan, that 1804 is generally considered an authentic error by the specialized collectors of the series and a very rare coin. Although in this day and age it would be nice to run the xrf analysis on it to ensure the correct metal composition just in case. I only know 1 person with an example of this error.
I checked my notes and it looks like It's the one first sold at Marti Hervera in February of 2014 (auction 80 according to my notes) and then resold by Stack's later that year (October 2014) at triple the price.
Aureo's "Isabel de Trastamara" sale last October had another example for sale, but I was so focused on winning the 1810-TH that I didn't go hard after it.
The 1770 bust Real above (in 1Bustcollector's post), assuming it's on a thin wafer of silver, it known in Spanish as a "muestra" or sample. It is not a die trial.
This piece would be a part of a box of all denominations, both obverses and reverses separately, with the silver denominations struck in thin silver and the gold denominations struck in brass. This box, together with matricies to manufacture punches (examples shown below), would have been shipped from Spain to each New World mint. The reverse muestra would have a N mintmark and NN assayer. The muestra would show the diesinker how the coin should look and he would punch each die individually using punches made from the appropriate matrix. Naturally, he would replace the N with Mo (or whatever the case may be), the NN with the assayer's initials, and the 1770 with the appropriate date in the final product.
I hear there is a complete box of 1770 muestras at one South American numismatic museum (I believe Santiago). I understand the big earthquake in Guatemala City liberated many of these, and most on the market today probably come from that mint (though they would be indistinguishable from any other). Or they could have been otherwise removed from another mint to which they were shipped.
I often wonder if some remained in Spain somewhere and have since come to market.
The matrix below is for a Pillar 8R reverse and is located in the Museo Nacional Numismático in Mexico City. (Sorry for the poor cell phone photo taken by yours truly through glass.)
The matrix below is purportedly for a bust 4R reverse and was auctioned by Dan Sedwick in April 2015. Note the top of the matrix has the Madrid mintmark and is dated "1770" and the bottom has "T.PRIETO" for the name of the engraver, Tomas Prieto.
And secondly, how many 1, 2, 4, 8 Reales have the miss spelling of Carolus?
The way I heard it is that all the manual labor in the Colonial (and Republican) mints were Indios (known today as Native Americans). Most could not read nor write Spanish. Hence they copied what they saw.
Occasionally a mistake was made!
Similar mistakes are found on the earliest coinage of Carlos y Juana.
Here's one I was tracking 4 years ago sold by Jesus Vico described as "Prueba unifaz de Tomás Francisco Nieto en plata de 4 reales, 1770, por el estilo, de Lima o México. Bonita pátina. SC. Rara. Ex HSA-1466
Funny thing, 2K, I've seen way more obverses than reverses. Explain that one??!!
That ex. Huntington Collection piece shown is a great example and did NOT come from Guatemala since it was accessioned in the nineteenth or early twentieth century.
Here's the only example I could find of a reverse, showing the N and NN. This one is in pewter but they exist in thin silver and brass as well.
As for why they exist in pewter, I am not sure. It would seem a wafer of silver would be easier to create and ship from Spain. I wonder if once they arrived at a given mint, copies were made and put on the diesinker's work table and the originals kept in the assayer's vault?
Well, darn! I started a long write up and when I tried uploading a picture I somehow lost the text.
In any event, thank you Pruebas for all this valuable information. I will take time to digest and review your comments. In linking the Matrix you talk about......I actually had at one time purchased this and later sold it:
You pose good questions, but I feel I would not be able to contribute well because I have no true understandings of the day to day operations of the Mexico Mints nor their policies on handling such items between the various Mints.
I will say, this is all fabulous reading!
Restated due to mistake:
TwoKopeiki: Another interesting posting! I love it. So, am I to assume that the Mint had thought about starting the Pillar (oops! I meant Portrait) design in "1770"? Or was that actually getting ready for the year of 1772?
Persuing choice countermarked coinage on 2 reales.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Persuing choice countermarked coinage on 2 reales.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Thanks Roman. Boy, you and Boosibri post some beautiful 1790 8R's! I find it tough to obtain high grade examples like that in minors. Mine is only EF....
But through it all, I feel fortunate having opportunity to view those gorgeous 8R's you guys post, it gives one inspiration to keep on collecting!
Persuing choice countermarked coinage on 2 reales.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Not as pretty as the one above.........this be my Dos Peso...............and my first Pic on the North & South American Thursday.................Yay I can post pics............now all I have to do is beef up on the photo skill
Roman, your 1790 seems to have nearly complete luster. Mine is a 55 and not as pretty.
Jack, it's not as lustrous as you think. I think a 55 would've been a more fitting grade, but I can see it in a 53 holder. Phil's photos actually highlight the areas of luster pretty well (bright orange).
BS: Nice, I don't see that many 1774's in AU and higher compared to other dates.
Persuing choice countermarked coinage on 2 reales.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Comments
Ok, thanks for the correction. I took a look and there is a 1740/30 in 64 at NGC and a few other 63's. This is the finest at PCGS.
So the Mexico 1851ZsOM in PCGS MS64 doesn't count? And I haven't even bothered to look at other mints. Nor ANACS.
Realize that only a very small percentage of world coins are slabbed and ever will be. There are many fabulous coins out there and to judge "finest known" by the PCGS census is foolish.
Latin American Collection
I don't think an 1851ZsOM is the same type as a 1733-MX/XM pillar
It obviously isn't. But this comment is what I called you out on:
I believ it is in fact also the finest known 4R from any mint of any year
Your belief is false.
Latin American Collection
I have been a serious dedicated census researcher on bust quarters for over 24 years, which includes researching as many auction catalogues as one can get their hands into. Bust quarters are a very small niche category and many have become encapsulated throughout the years - but there are still a ton out there that have not surfaced for numerous reasons. World coins are a different ball game to me. I'm very new at this but realize it will take my lifetime (plus) to capture anything close to recording proper census material through existing sources. We can only rely on what is publicly available, although I'm sure there are always private sources that might be much more accurate. Funny, who are "the experts" that can add/contribute to Boosibri's statement and back it up?
Another point concerning condition census or finest knowns: if it's not published then it can't be used by others.
I for one will say that I will always be amazed to see such a beautifully high grade 4 Reales with a great Norweb provenance. Congrats!
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Here's what CRO actually said about the coin:
In 20+ years of concerted searching, this is the single nicest Pillar 4 Reales we've ever had the chance to buy, and it just happens to be this rare and seldom seen early issue.
In other words, all the others were fully/over priced and he couldn't make any money on them.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Finest known statements do raise eyebrows - and then we all want to check it out.
Adjustment made.
On another note: I'd be interested if there was something/anything in the making geared towards colonial portrait Mexico City 1/2 Reales.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Finest or not I wouldn't kick that 4R out of bed.
Look...coins! (sorry they are all damaged)
I like this episode way better than the "American Chopper" on Discovery channel.
Are these newps? you been busy?
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
These aren't newps but I did just land a big group of fairly tough chopmarked coins. Unfortunately they aren't photographed yet so these had to do.
Ok, so I got this in my files. Anyone ever seen "die trials" like this on the other series?
And secondly, how many 1, 2, 4, 8 Reales have the miss spelling of Carolus?
Hey, OriginalDan, I like the chop mark on the 1785 - looks like a Bearded Chopmark!
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
And secondly, how many 1, 2, 4, 8 Reales have the miss spelling of Carolus?
Well, there's this one:
(not my coin)
I've always wondered if this was a real coin or not. The mistake and the rarity give me pause.
But to argue the opposing side ... and please keep in mind I do not know anything about the factual statistics here ...
Carolus is simply the Latinized version of Charles, as I'm sure you all recall. I would not be surprised if phonetic pronunciations and/or space limitations in the design yielded some shortened versions. Carlus and Carols, said a certain way, do sound more like "Charles" no?
Or maybe I'm just being silly at this late hour.
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
By the way, sorry to "stir the pot" here, but when someone starts parroting marketing pablum as numismatic knowledge, that rubs me the wrong way.
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
I just looked up originalDans 8 real. Krause does list that date (1804) and spelling (Carlus) - pretty cool.
Note to Pruebus: Yes, anything I could learn is always helpful. I know that particular 1/2 real sold via Heritage. Where it is today is anybody's guess.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
8 Reales Madness Collection
8 Reales Madness Collection
Aureo's "Isabel de Trastamara" sale last October had another example for sale, but I was so focused on winning the 1810-TH that I didn't go hard after it.
8 Reales Madness Collection
This piece would be a part of a box of all denominations, both obverses and reverses separately, with the silver denominations struck in thin silver and the gold denominations struck in brass. This box, together with matricies to manufacture punches (examples shown below), would have been shipped from Spain to each New World mint. The reverse muestra would have a N mintmark and NN assayer. The muestra would show the diesinker how the coin should look and he would punch each die individually using punches made from the appropriate matrix. Naturally, he would replace the N with Mo (or whatever the case may be), the NN with the assayer's initials, and the 1770 with the appropriate date in the final product.
I hear there is a complete box of 1770 muestras at one South American numismatic museum (I believe Santiago). I understand the big earthquake in Guatemala City liberated many of these, and most on the market today probably come from that mint (though they would be indistinguishable from any other). Or they could have been otherwise removed from another mint to which they were shipped.
I often wonder if some remained in Spain somewhere and have since come to market.
The matrix below is for a Pillar 8R reverse and is located in the Museo Nacional Numismático in Mexico City. (Sorry for the poor cell phone photo taken by yours truly through glass.)
The matrix below is purportedly for a bust 4R reverse and was auctioned by Dan Sedwick in April 2015. Note the top of the matrix has the Madrid mintmark and is dated "1770" and the bottom has "T.PRIETO" for the name of the engraver, Tomas Prieto.
And secondly, how many 1, 2, 4, 8 Reales have the miss spelling of Carolus?
The way I heard it is that all the manual labor in the Colonial (and Republican) mints were Indios (known today as Native Americans). Most could not read nor write Spanish. Hence they copied what they saw.
Occasionally a mistake was made!
Similar mistakes are found on the earliest coinage of Carlos y Juana.
8 Reales Madness Collection
"
8 Reales Madness Collection
That ex. Huntington Collection piece shown is a great example and did NOT come from Guatemala since it was accessioned in the nineteenth or early twentieth century.
As for why they exist in pewter, I am not sure. It would seem a wafer of silver would be easier to create and ship from Spain. I wonder if once they arrived at a given mint, copies were made and put on the diesinker's work table and the originals kept in the assayer's vault?
Anybody have ideas?
I can no longer link to a Heritage photo, so here's a link to the auction page.
In any event, thank you Pruebas for all this valuable information. I will take time to digest and review your comments. In linking the Matrix you talk about......I actually had at one time purchased this and later sold it:
You pose good questions, but I feel I would not be able to contribute well because I have no true understandings of the day to day operations of the Mexico Mints nor their policies on handling such items between the various Mints.
I will say, this is all fabulous reading!
Restated due to mistake:
TwoKopeiki: Another interesting posting! I love it. So, am I to assume that the Mint had thought about starting the Pillar (oops! I meant Portrait) design in "1770"? Or was that actually getting ready for the year of 1772?
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
1790 Carlos III bust with Carlos IIII Legend
Latin American Collection
Nice looking transitional, Boosibri!
Here's mine (AU53)
8 Reales Madness Collection
You should regrade that coin. Looks better than a 53.
Latin American Collection
One day, perhaps. I have a few coins that could benefit from being resubmitted, but can't justify the expense at this time.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Rory - those are some wonderful minors!!
8 Reales Madness Collection
Man those are some nice 8 reales ....!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
But through it all, I feel fortunate having opportunity to view those gorgeous 8R's you guys post, it gives one inspiration to keep on collecting!
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
My YouTube Channel
Not as pretty as the one above.........this be my Dos Peso...............and my first Pic on the North & South American Thursday.................Yay I can post pics............now all I have to do is beef up on the photo skill
Steve
That's a very nice example! Great original skin.
My YouTube Channel
1957 5 Pesos Constitution that I saved from the melt bucket for 9 bucks I think, I forget But I was thrilled Mintage of 200,000
Latin American Collection
Roman, your 1790 seems to have nearly complete luster. Mine is a 55 and not as pretty.
Another Thursday - another bunch of awesome coins posted!
Jack, it's not as lustrous as you think. I think a 55 would've been a more fitting grade, but I can see it in a 53 holder. Phil's photos actually highlight the areas of luster pretty well (bright orange).
Boosibri - great looking minor!
8 Reales Madness Collection
Let's go a little North
Steve
If we can include Caribbean islands, perhaps we can stretch the boundaries to include these Pacific islands.
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BS: Nice, I don't see that many 1774's in AU and higher compared to other dates.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
The entertainment can never be overdressed....except in burlesque
The Great Pumpkin has arrived:
Portugal Brazil 12,800 Reis 1732-M (Minas Gerais)
Gold, 38mm, 28.58gm
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Nice one, Brian. Is that your big NEWP from CRO?