The 1964 MORGAN DOLLAR DISCOVERY

Dentuck · August 31, 2016 3:43AM

Hello friends and forumites,

This has been an exciting and busy week, and I wanted to chime in on the recently announced 1964 Morgan dollar discovery.

The people involved in this discovery were myself, John Dannreuther, Q. David Bowers, and David Sundman. What we discovered at the Philadelphia Mint were galvanos (or bronzed plaster models; further study will have to reveal their composition), hubs, and master dies for a 1964 Morgan dollar.

To clarify, and to squelch any rumors or speculation: We didn't find working dies, or actual trial-strike coins.

The central image on the front cover of the new 5th-edition Guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars is of a master die (which has regular "coin" orientation, not mirrored as a working die would be), photographed straight-on from above. That's why it has the appearance of being a coin. This isn't an artist's mockup, a software-manipulated fabrication, a fantasy strike, or a counterfeit coin. It's a real piece of Philadelphia Mint hardware that, under normal circumstances, would have been used to create working dies for coinage.

This was a very exciting discovery! Roger W. Burdette has described in his Guide Book of Peace Dollars how the Morgan design was briefly considered for silver-dollar coinage in the early 1960s. Of course it was the Peace design that eventually was pressed into service.

The revelation of these previously unknown models, hubs, and dies is an amazing real-world example of the vibrancy of numismatics --- our hobby is a living, breathing science. There are discoveries out there still waiting to be made!

-- Dennis

jmcu12 · August 31, 2016 3:47AM

This is very exciting and I cannot wait to learn more! Great job!

Weiss · August 31, 2016 3:54AM

Awesome. Thanks for the clarification.

PRECIOUSMENTAL · August 31, 2016 4:00AM

Thanks for the new info.

Wabbit2313 · August 31, 2016 4:02AM

Really neat. I would be interested in how 4 of you were given access and were you allowed to just start rummaging around in there? Any pictures of what the room or vault looks like where these were found? Etc?

TwoSides2aCoin · August 31, 2016 4:05AM

Incredible that you got to meet with those guys and researching with them must be fascinating. The knowledge and depth of understanding is "scary". The discovery astonishing.

I really have to scratch my head more days than not, in this hobby.

CascadeChris · August 31, 2016 4:12AM

Epic!... One question though. After learning of its existance, did you eat a sandwich and think about this find's correlation to sliced bread

Dentuck · August 31, 2016 4:35AM

Originally posted by: CascadeChris
Epic!... One question though. After learning of its existance, did you eat a sandwich and think about this find's correlation to sliced bread

Definitely the greatest thing since sliced bread!

northcoin · August 31, 2016 4:47AM

Thanks for the first hand account!

dcarr · August 31, 2016 5:02AM

Fantastic !

Wouldn't that Red Book photo, if it wasn't "mirrored", be of a master hub or working hub rather than a "master die" ?
Since the photo isn't of an actual coin but a hub (so it can't be "strike doubling"), what accounts for the apparent doubling along the nose ?

What did you find in regards to galvanos hubs and dies for the 1964 Peace Dollar ?
Did those have the same kind of rounded lettering as seen on the 1964 Morgan ?

Since no working dies were found, and since the "D" mint marks were added to working dies only, I'm assuming that none of the dies have any mint marks.

jesbroken · August 31, 2016 5:04AM

Thanks, Dennis, for clarifying all the rumors in this item's regards. Must have been the most exciting numismatic even of your life. If not you have had quite a life. lol

Take care and keep us updated.

Jim

gonzer · August 31, 2016 5:16AM

Thanks Dentuck. That news should put to bed any rumors. Must've been quite a thrill eh?

jesbroken · August 31, 2016 5:18AM

Wouldn't that Red Book photo, if it wasn't "mirrored", be of a master hub or working hub rather than a "master die" ?

Since the photo isn't of an actual coin but a hub (so it can't be "strike doubling"), what accounts for the apparent doubling along the nose ?

What did you find in regards to galvanos hubs and dies for the 1964 Peace Dollar ?

Did those have the same kind of rounded lettering as seen on the 1964 Morgan ?

Since no working dies were found, and since the "D" mint marks were added to working dies only, I'm assuming that none of the dies have any mint marks.Q]

Is there an article in a coin book that describes every step involved from designing through striking for issue, including photos, available.

Thanks

Jim

Dentuck · August 31, 2016 5:23AM

Is there an article in a coin book that describes every step involved from designing through striking for issue, including photos, available.
Thanks
Jim

John Wexler walks through the process in this illustrated essay.

johnny9434 · August 31, 2016 5:25AM

i cant wait to see where this one goes.

Overdate · August 31, 2016 5:53AM

Any pictures of the Peace dollar master die? It would be neat to compare the 1964 design with those of 1921-1935.

Also, do you know whether there is any chance that the Mint will exhibit these master dies or transfer them to the Smithsonian?

jesbroken · August 31, 2016 6:11AM

Thanks Dennis. Very informative.

Jim

oih82w8 · August 31, 2016 6:52AM

I can't believe that you guys are falling for this deliberate distraction to avert the eyes to another more meaningful...oh wait, wrong forum.

This is pretty fascinating stuff! Why were you guys at the Philadelphia Mint snooping around for and you just happen to stumble across this "piece"? We're you looking for Pokémon?

messydesk · August 31, 2016 7:13AM

Thanks for clearing this all up, Dennis.

Jackthecat1 · August 31, 2016 7:23AM

Thank you for the interesting first-hand report on this discovery.

Overdate · August 31, 2016 7:43AM

Originally posted by: oih82w8
Why were you guys at the Philadelphia Mint snooping around for and you just happen to stumble across this "piece"? We're you looking for Pokémon?

I heard rumors of a Bigfoot sighting there.

JRocco · August 31, 2016 8:30AM

Just soaking this all in.

Thanks for the info and update.

Feels like being a kid again !

TopographicOceans · August 31, 2016 8:43AM

Even though they didn't proceed it's cool just to know they thought about doing it.

Great discovery

cmerlo1 · August 31, 2016 9:47AM

Thanks for the info- this is fascinating!

BAJJERFAN · August 31, 2016 2:34PM

Originally posted by: Dentuck

Hello friends and forumites,

This has been an exciting and busy week, and I wanted to chime in on the recently announced 1964 Morgan dollar discovery.

The people involved in this discovery were myself, John Dannreuther, Q. David Bowers, and David Sundman. What we discovered at the Philadelphia Mint were galvanos (or bronzed plaster models; further study will have to reveal their composition), hubs, and master dies for a 1964 Morgan dollar.

To clarify, and to squelch any rumors or speculation: We didn't find working dies, or actual trial-strike coins.

The central image on the front cover of the new 5th-edition Guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars is of a master die (which has regular "coin" orientation, not mirrored as a working die would be), photographed straight-on from above. That's why it has the appearance of being a coin. This isn't an artist's mockup, a software-manipulated fabrication, a fantasy strike, or a counterfeit coin. It's a real piece of Philadelphia Mint hardware that, under normal circumstances, would have been used to create working dies for coinage.

This was a very exciting discovery! Roger W. Burdette has described in his Guide Book of Peace Dollars how the Morgan design was briefly considered for silver-dollar coinage in the early 1960s. Of course it was the Peace design that eventually was pressed into service.

The revelation of these previously unknown models, hubs, and dies is an amazing real-world example of the vibrancy of numismatics --- our hobby is a living, breathing science. There are discoveries out there still waiting to be made!

-- Dennis

Sounds like if the 64 Peace buck hadn't been squelched, we may have seen a 64 Morgan too. Did you ask about mint bags of 95 biz strike Morgans? A sack 'O those would create a LOT of hoopla amongst collectors.

ricko · August 31, 2016 10:04PM

Thanks for the information Dennis... it is still intriguing to think that there could be a '64 Morgan hidden in some remote attic somewhere...

Maybe right next to the '64 Peace?? Cheers, RickO

jessewvu · August 31, 2016 11:13PM

Why is this important?

Is it a "could have been" story or something like that?

CaptHenway · August 31, 2016 11:59PM

Sounds like if the 64 Peace buck hadn't been squelched, we may have seen a 64 Morgan too. Did you ask about mint bags of 95 biz strike Morgans? A sack 'O those would create a LOT of hoopla amongst collectors.

The Treasury had only been appropriated enough money to strike 45 million dollars, which they did not think would be enough to discourage hoarding. By striking only one design at only one Mint they hoped to discourage hoarding by giving collectors only one design/date/mint mark combination to collect.

It was always going to be one design or the other. To the best of my knowledge Roger Burdette is the only writer to ever note that the Mint had briefly considered using the Morgan design over the Peace design. Nobody ever knew that the Mint had gone as far as to re-create galvanoes and master dies and hubs in the Morgan design with the 1964 date.

TD

asheland · September 1, 2016 12:21AM

Originally posted by: Weiss
Awesome. Thanks for the clarification.

+1

Very cool information!

ambro51 · September 1, 2016 12:29AM

Wasn't this story, the plans etc, out there years ago? I seem to remember reading this somewhere so long ago I pretty we'll forgot it. Ugh, if it had come to pass, clad Morgan dollars with the hair reworked by the "skilled artisan" who gave us the spaghetti hair Washington quarter.

Insider2 · September 1, 2016 1:16AM

Originally posted by: oih82w8 Why were you guys at the Philadelphia Mint snooping around for and you just happen to stumble across this "piece"?

Perhaps they were looking for 1874 Trade dollar dies. I read JD may have some new discovery to be announced.

steveben · September 1, 2016 2:48AM

great info.

we need pics.

was the $5 brokage maker also discovered at the same time?

if they make any 1964 morgans, i hope they limit the mintage to 100K or less.

Coinosaurus · September 1, 2016 2:55AM

Great stuff. I would have been tempted to bring along some silly putty to get an impression of the master die. Of course, the OP didn't say that he *didn't* do this

CaptHenway · September 4, 2016 12:42PM

Sure would like to see some more pictures of these........

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · September 4, 2016 3:57PM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway
Sure would like to see some more pictures of these........

Overdate · September 4, 2016 4:01PM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway
Sure would like to see some more pictures of these........

Especially the Peace dollar!

CaptHenway · September 5, 2016 12:50AM

Coin World's Monday Morning Brief video has some pictures in the background of a master die and master hub that I had not seen released before, plus a better picture of the galvano:

http://www.coinworld.com/video...brief&utm_content=

Sure am glad I have a digital subscription to Coin WOrld!

TD

oih82w8 · September 5, 2016 5:28AM

Thanks for the link CaptHenway!

CaptHenway · September 6, 2016 7:34AM

As mentioned ATS, there is a picture that appears at about 1:49 in the Coin World video that shows the obverse master hub for the 1964 Morgan dollar (a cropped image of which was included in the original press release), and above that the reverse master die. Note that the eagle's head is turned right instead of left, and you can see that ONE DOLLAR is backwards.

TD

CaptHenway · September 7, 2016 10:16AM

I have in my hot little hands a Redbook with a picture of a 1964 Peace dollar die in it. Details later.

TD

coinkat · September 7, 2016 10:49AM

I really am missing the point with this story... Coins that actually were minted and exist have received far less fan fair than this...

CaptHenway · September 7, 2016 1:11PM

In the new "A Guide Book of Modern United States Dollar Coins" by Q. David Bowers, there is an introductory chapter on the dollars of 1794-1935. At the end of that chapter are pictures of the 1964 Morgan Dollar obverse galvano that we have already seen, and a picture of a 1964 Peace Dollar die.

I assume it is a master die, though unfortunately the picture is trimmed to just the coin diameter and you cannot see the shoulder of the die.

The design appears to have a straight leg on the "R" of "TRVST," which would make it the hub style of 1934-35. Looking at the digits "1, 9 & 4" of the date, I would say that the Mint probably used a 1934 dollar on the Janvier lathe to copy the design, after which they removed the "3" and replaced it with an upside-down "9." Overall it looks like a much more realistic Peace dollar date than that crude "1964" seen on the Morgan dollar galvano and master hub.

TD

2ltdjorn · September 7, 2016 1:17PM

I have a friend in China who can get a roll.

CaptHenway · September 8, 2016 2:45AM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

In the new "A Guide Book of Modern United States Dollar Coins" by Q. David Bowers, there is an introductory chapter on the dollars of 1794-1935. At the end of that chapter are pictures of the 1964 Morgan Dollar obverse galvano that we have already seen, and a picture of a 1964 Peace Dollar die.

I assume it is a master die, though unfortunately the picture is trimmed to just the coin diameter and you cannot see the shoulder of the die.

The design appears to have a straight leg on the "R" of "TRVST," which would make it the hub style of 1934-35. Looking at the digits "1, 9 & 4" of the date, I would say that the Mint probably used a 1934 dollar on the Janvier lathe to copy the design, after which they removed the "3" and replaced it with an upside-down "9." Overall it looks like a much more realistic Peace dollar date than that crude "1964" seen on the Morgan dollar galvano and master hub.

TD

Roger Burdette informs me that this picture will also appear in the third edition of his Peace dollar book, which is not available yet.

CaptHenway · September 8, 2016 10:51PM

Originally posted by: coinkat

I really am missing the point with this story... Coins that actually were minted and exist have received far less fan fair than this...

"Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' "

Whittier

1940coupe · September 8, 2016 11:11PM

I for one cant wait for Dan Car to create what might have been! 1964 morgan overstrike to go with 1964 peace dollar in reg. and proof ! While I know he hasnt said he will I am sure he will

CaptHenway · September 12, 2016 3:35AM

ttt

coinkat · September 13, 2016 7:50AM

CaptHenway

While it is entertaining to write and think about what might have been, it should not come at the expense of reporting what really exists...

And yes, I even believe at least afew 1964-D Peace Dollars survived and it is only a question of time before one surfaces.

Wabbit2313 · September 13, 2016 7:53AM

This whole thing is turning into an attempt to sell more books. So be it, but I'll wait for the short version someone will post here eventually.

CaptHenway · September 16, 2016 3:13AM

So, is the book out yet?

mr1931S · September 16, 2016 3:53AM

I really am missing the point with this story... Coins that actually were minted and exist have received far less fan fair than this...

Very true.

The 1964 MORGAN DOLLAR DISCOVERY

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