Options
The 1964 MORGAN DOLLAR DISCOVERY
Dentuck
Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭
Hello friends and forumites,
This has been an exciting and busy week, and I wanted to chime in on the recently announced 1964 Morgan dollar discovery.
The people involved in this discovery were myself, John Dannreuther, Q. David Bowers, and David Sundman. What we discovered at the Philadelphia Mint were galvanos (or bronzed plaster models; further study will have to reveal their composition), hubs, and master dies for a 1964 Morgan dollar.
To clarify, and to squelch any rumors or speculation: We didn't find working dies, or actual trial-strike coins.
The central image on the front cover of the new 5th-edition Guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars is of a master die (which has regular "coin" orientation, not mirrored as a working die would be), photographed straight-on from above. That's why it has the appearance of being a coin. This isn't an artist's mockup, a software-manipulated fabrication, a fantasy strike, or a counterfeit coin. It's a real piece of Philadelphia Mint hardware that, under normal circumstances, would have been used to create working dies for coinage.
This was a very exciting discovery! Roger W. Burdette has described in his Guide Book of Peace Dollars how the Morgan design was briefly considered for silver-dollar coinage in the early 1960s. Of course it was the Peace design that eventually was pressed into service.
The revelation of these previously unknown models, hubs, and dies is an amazing real-world example of the vibrancy of numismatics --- our hobby is a living, breathing science. There are discoveries out there still waiting to be made!
-- Dennis
This has been an exciting and busy week, and I wanted to chime in on the recently announced 1964 Morgan dollar discovery.
The people involved in this discovery were myself, John Dannreuther, Q. David Bowers, and David Sundman. What we discovered at the Philadelphia Mint were galvanos (or bronzed plaster models; further study will have to reveal their composition), hubs, and master dies for a 1964 Morgan dollar.
To clarify, and to squelch any rumors or speculation: We didn't find working dies, or actual trial-strike coins.
The central image on the front cover of the new 5th-edition Guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars is of a master die (which has regular "coin" orientation, not mirrored as a working die would be), photographed straight-on from above. That's why it has the appearance of being a coin. This isn't an artist's mockup, a software-manipulated fabrication, a fantasy strike, or a counterfeit coin. It's a real piece of Philadelphia Mint hardware that, under normal circumstances, would have been used to create working dies for coinage.
This was a very exciting discovery! Roger W. Burdette has described in his Guide Book of Peace Dollars how the Morgan design was briefly considered for silver-dollar coinage in the early 1960s. Of course it was the Peace design that eventually was pressed into service.
The revelation of these previously unknown models, hubs, and dies is an amazing real-world example of the vibrancy of numismatics --- our hobby is a living, breathing science. There are discoveries out there still waiting to be made!
-- Dennis
4
Comments
--Severian the Lame
Really neat. I would be interested in how 4 of you were given access and were you allowed to just start rummaging around in there? Any pictures of what the room or vault looks like where these were found? Etc?
I really have to scratch my head more days than not, in this hobby.
Epic!... One question though. After learning of its existance, did you eat a sandwich and think about this find's correlation to sliced bread
Definitely the greatest thing since sliced bread!
Wouldn't that Red Book photo, if it wasn't "mirrored", be of a master hub or working hub rather than a "master die" ?
Since the photo isn't of an actual coin but a hub (so it can't be "strike doubling"), what accounts for the apparent doubling along the nose ?
What did you find in regards to galvanos hubs and dies for the 1964 Peace Dollar ?
Did those have the same kind of rounded lettering as seen on the 1964 Morgan ?
Since no working dies were found, and since the "D" mint marks were added to working dies only, I'm assuming that none of the dies have any mint marks.
Take care and keep us updated.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Since the photo isn't of an actual coin but a hub (so it can't be "strike doubling"), what accounts for the apparent doubling along the nose ?
What did you find in regards to galvanos hubs and dies for the 1964 Peace Dollar ?
Did those have the same kind of rounded lettering as seen on the 1964 Morgan ?
Since no working dies were found, and since the "D" mint marks were added to working dies only, I'm assuming that none of the dies have any mint marks.Q]
Is there an article in a coin book that describes every step involved from designing through striking for issue, including photos, available.
Thanks
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Thanks
Jim
John Wexler walks through the process in this illustrated essay.
Also, do you know whether there is any chance that the Mint will exhibit these master dies or transfer them to the Smithsonian?
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
This is pretty fascinating stuff! Why were you guys at the Philadelphia Mint snooping around for and you just happen to stumble across this "piece"? We're you looking for Pokémon?
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Why were you guys at the Philadelphia Mint snooping around for and you just happen to stumble across this "piece"? We're you looking for Pokémon?
I heard rumors of a Bigfoot sighting there.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Thanks for the info and update.
Feels like being a kid again !
Great discovery
Hello friends and forumites,
This has been an exciting and busy week, and I wanted to chime in on the recently announced 1964 Morgan dollar discovery.
The people involved in this discovery were myself, John Dannreuther, Q. David Bowers, and David Sundman. What we discovered at the Philadelphia Mint were galvanos (or bronzed plaster models; further study will have to reveal their composition), hubs, and master dies for a 1964 Morgan dollar.
To clarify, and to squelch any rumors or speculation: We didn't find working dies, or actual trial-strike coins.
The central image on the front cover of the new 5th-edition Guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars is of a master die (which has regular "coin" orientation, not mirrored as a working die would be), photographed straight-on from above. That's why it has the appearance of being a coin. This isn't an artist's mockup, a software-manipulated fabrication, a fantasy strike, or a counterfeit coin. It's a real piece of Philadelphia Mint hardware that, under normal circumstances, would have been used to create working dies for coinage.
This was a very exciting discovery! Roger W. Burdette has described in his Guide Book of Peace Dollars how the Morgan design was briefly considered for silver-dollar coinage in the early 1960s. Of course it was the Peace design that eventually was pressed into service.
The revelation of these previously unknown models, hubs, and dies is an amazing real-world example of the vibrancy of numismatics --- our hobby is a living, breathing science. There are discoveries out there still waiting to be made!
-- Dennis
Sounds like if the 64 Peace buck hadn't been squelched, we may have seen a 64 Morgan too. Did you ask about mint bags of 95 biz strike Morgans? A sack 'O those would create a LOT of hoopla amongst collectors.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Is it a "could have been" story or something like that?
Sounds like if the 64 Peace buck hadn't been squelched, we may have seen a 64 Morgan too. Did you ask about mint bags of 95 biz strike Morgans? A sack 'O those would create a LOT of hoopla amongst collectors.
The Treasury had only been appropriated enough money to strike 45 million dollars, which they did not think would be enough to discourage hoarding. By striking only one design at only one Mint they hoped to discourage hoarding by giving collectors only one design/date/mint mark combination to collect.
It was always going to be one design or the other. To the best of my knowledge Roger Burdette is the only writer to ever note that the Mint had briefly considered using the Morgan design over the Peace design. Nobody ever knew that the Mint had gone as far as to re-create galvanoes and master dies and hubs in the Morgan design with the 1964 date.
TD
Awesome. Thanks for the clarification.
+1
Very cool information!
My YouTube Channel
Perhaps they were looking for 1874 Trade dollar dies. I read JD may have some new discovery to be announced.
we need pics.
was the $5 brokage maker also discovered at the same time?
if they make any 1964 morgans, i hope they limit the mintage to 100K or less.
Sure would like to see some more pictures of these........
Sure would like to see some more pictures of these........
Especially the Peace dollar!
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
http://www.coinworld.com/video...brief&utm_content=
Sure am glad I have a digital subscription to Coin WOrld!
TD
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
TD
TD
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I assume it is a master die, though unfortunately the picture is trimmed to just the coin diameter and you cannot see the shoulder of the die.
The design appears to have a straight leg on the "R" of "TRVST," which would make it the hub style of 1934-35. Looking at the digits "1, 9 & 4" of the date, I would say that the Mint probably used a 1934 dollar on the Janvier lathe to copy the design, after which they removed the "3" and replaced it with an upside-down "9." Overall it looks like a much more realistic Peace dollar date than that crude "1964" seen on the Morgan dollar galvano and master hub.
TD
In the new "A Guide Book of Modern United States Dollar Coins" by Q. David Bowers, there is an introductory chapter on the dollars of 1794-1935. At the end of that chapter are pictures of the 1964 Morgan Dollar obverse galvano that we have already seen, and a picture of a 1964 Peace Dollar die.
I assume it is a master die, though unfortunately the picture is trimmed to just the coin diameter and you cannot see the shoulder of the die.
The design appears to have a straight leg on the "R" of "TRVST," which would make it the hub style of 1934-35. Looking at the digits "1, 9 & 4" of the date, I would say that the Mint probably used a 1934 dollar on the Janvier lathe to copy the design, after which they removed the "3" and replaced it with an upside-down "9." Overall it looks like a much more realistic Peace dollar date than that crude "1964" seen on the Morgan dollar galvano and master hub.
TD
Roger Burdette informs me that this picture will also appear in the third edition of his Peace dollar book, which is not available yet.
I really am missing the point with this story... Coins that actually were minted and exist have received far less fan fair than this...
"Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: 'It might have been!' "
Whittier
While it is entertaining to write and think about what might have been, it should not come at the expense of reporting what really exists...
And yes, I even believe at least afew 1964-D Peace Dollars survived and it is only a question of time before one surfaces.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
This whole thing is turning into an attempt to sell more books. So be it, but I'll wait for the short version someone will post here eventually.
Very true.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein