Im so tired of Gold CAC and ebay sellers...
CommemKing
Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
Over and over I see coins accurately graded in in PCGS or NGC graded slabs with a gold CAC sticker that is priced well over the next grade level for the coin. For example, a there is currently a MS66 GOLD CAC stickered York Commem listed on ebay for BIN at 699.95. The coin has moderate at best toning. Pull out the old Grey Sheet and MS66 value is $210, MS67 is $375. Almost every Gold CAC is offered at least than the higher grade level for that specific coin. I'd love to see the stats on gold CAC crackouts and see how they do on a new regrade or raw grade.
Why do people have the misconception that Gold CAC, or green CAC for that matter, have any bearing on value?
Its like "OMG it has a gold CAC sticker!!!! pull out the checkbooks and credit cards I have to have it." Why not use your own eye and trust the pro's at PCGS? Its just another gimmick company putting their hand in the till.
Austin Powers from Goldmember:
"Gol Blimey! All your privates have had their privates painted gold? How bizarre. Imagine: gilded talleywhackers, golden wedding tackle, 14 Karot trouser snakes..." Basil Exposition: "That's enough." Austin: "Okay."
I think he put it nicely.
Here is the only "gold" that should matter in coin collecting...
Rant over.
Why do people have the misconception that Gold CAC, or green CAC for that matter, have any bearing on value?
Its like "OMG it has a gold CAC sticker!!!! pull out the checkbooks and credit cards I have to have it." Why not use your own eye and trust the pro's at PCGS? Its just another gimmick company putting their hand in the till.
Austin Powers from Goldmember:
"Gol Blimey! All your privates have had their privates painted gold? How bizarre. Imagine: gilded talleywhackers, golden wedding tackle, 14 Karot trouser snakes..." Basil Exposition: "That's enough." Austin: "Okay."
I think he put it nicely.
Here is the only "gold" that should matter in coin collecting...
Rant over.
0
Comments
I do not bid / offer above the TPG grade on the holder. So what if somebody believes it should upgrade? The proof is in the pudding when in fact it does upgrade if at all.
My take is these sellers don't want send the coin for upgrade or it's been rejected for upgrade.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
I do not bid / offer above the TPG grade on the holder. So what if somebody believes it should upgrade? The proof is in the pudding when in fact it does upgrade if at all.
My take is these sellers don't want send the coin for upgrade or it's been rejected for upgrade.
I do not bid / offer above the TPG grade on the holder. So what if somebody believes it should upgrade? The proof is in the pudding when in fact it does upgrade if at all.
My take is these sellers don't want send the coin for upgrade or it's been rejected for upgrade.
I am talking about a coin that is significantly more valuable in the next grade up. Throw your money at those all day long and you will be OK. Those coins are generally 1.5 points undergraded, in my own personal experience.
Tom
At ANY price?! The coin is complete scrap metal without the sticker?!!
Please....
I guess some collectors think that the gold CAC sticker some kind of premium collectable. It isn't so far as I'm concerned.
I've gone to a number of auctions looking to bid on only the upgrade potential coins. At Benson 1 in 2002 my target list had 5 coins on it. And I missed out on every one of them. One of them was a PCGS MS66 no drapery half dime that I felt was a good MS68 shot at NGC. I bid $5200 all in on that coin which was strong MS67 money. It went for around $5800 as I recall (66 money was under $2,000). And sure enough, a month later the coin was in Pinnacle's inventory as NGC MS68 with a $12K-$13K price tag...selling immediately. 2 of the other coins of the 5 were toner proof 65 1858 and 1859 quarters. They both ended up as NGC MS66's a month later. All 5 of those coins upgraded 1-2 pts. I was closest on the MS66 to 68 half dime.
I have no problem paying up 1-2 grades if the coin merits it. I don't care what they were graded or if they have beans or not. I don't even care if they're raw. You buy the coin for what it is to you despite its "clothing." And I've had no problem selling under-graded coins in holders for 50-150% premiums long before CAC was around. I recall a lowly MS63 rattler Saint I got out of a Stacks auction along with a couple dozen others of slightly less quality from a fresh hoard off the market for 14 years. That MS63 was every bit a MS65 by 2002-2004 standards. I flipped that coin to a smal wholesaler for 64+ money, leaving some room if they got the 65 grade. That was back when the price more than doubled from 63 to 65.
there are plenty of non-CAC coins on ebay being offered at premiums over the stated grade.
With only about 1200-1500 gold CACs in existence, you'd think from the talk on here that there are plentiful. Gold CAC on any Mint State graded large sized bust quarter? Doesn't exist yet. Small sized bust quarter? A single 62 and 65. Only 3 MS64 capped bust halves....nothing higher. $20 Saints 64/65 or higher? That's a common coin. Yet...only 8 gold stickered coins....and that's out of 450,000 coins listed on the PCGS pop report. They don't grow on trees. For common MS64 to MS65 coins like Mercs, Buffs, Washingtons, and Walkers from 1938-1945 I can't get too excited with a gold sticker....even if the numbers are small. Curiously, there are some very common coins where gold CACs are very few (....a single 1943 steel cent in unc....a single Red unc Indian cent 1864-1909...and 4 RB wheat cents 1909-1958).
Some years back, Ole Jerry was paying like $600- $800 for Proof66 Frankies with a goldie-- well that bubble burst but those that were in on it at the time still remember those insane profits and are reluctant to let go.
Coins receiving a gold bean are considered to be "at least" a full grade higher than the assigned grade on the slab. Gold beans are awarded to less than 1% of the coins reviewed. When they are awarded, the potential that the coin could upgrade beyond one grade higher than the number on the slab exists. As a practical matter the average collector wouldn't crack out a coin from a gold beaned slab simply because the gold beaned slab is a rarity unto itself.
Who in their right mind would want to take the risk associated with a crackout?
That said, Sellers asking roughly 3 times the actual value of the coin are simply trying to rob their customers. It's just that simple. A fair asking price would be the value for coins one grade higher than the grade on the slab and maybe the 15% to 20% I spoke of.
Then again, there are Dealers at shows and on E-Bay regularly asking 2 to 3 times published value for coins with no bean at all.
I completely disagree. Unless you have sent tons of coins to CAC and see what does sticker as Gold, you will not fully appreciate the coins that make it in. I am not talking Mercury dimes that Gold, and 3 grades up, they are worth the same amount, or even less!
I am talking about a coin that is significantly more valuable in the next grade up. Throw your money at those all day long and you will be OK. Those coins are generally 1.5 points undergraded, in my own personal experience.
Are you making fun of my dimes?!?!
In all honesty I have one that I can sell and if I do it will be in a true auction on ebay and the market will value it.
I don't really care one way or another about CAC, but can understand the pricing. If there are not enough gold cacs to go around, people are actually paying a premium for the sticker, not the coin.....
That's exactly the situation that occurred in the 1988-1989 coin market. There weren't enough slabs to go around, so prices got pushed a lot higher than they should have been vs. the same coin raw. The demand was insatiable for the slabs. Consider this week's topic of "Indian Gold." Today there are approx 1,000 MS65 PCGS $5 Indians listed on the pop report. Back in Dec 1989...they numbered 41. At some point in time there will probably be enough CAC golds to go around....at least in the 20th century silver series where generics abound.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Over and over I see coins accurately graded in in PCGS or NGC graded slabs with a gold CAC sticker that is priced well over the next grade level for the coin. For example, a there is currently a MS66 GOLD CAC stickered York Commem listed on ebay for BIN at 699.95. The coin has moderate at best toning. Pull out the old Grey Sheet and MS66 value is $210, MS67 is $375. Almost every Gold CAC is offered at least than the higher grade level for that specific coin. I'd love to see the stats on gold CAC crackouts and see how they do on a new regrade or raw grade.
Why do people have the misconception that Gold CAC, or green CAC for that matter, have any bearing on value?
Its like "OMG it has a gold CAC sticker!!!! pull out the checkbooks and credit cards I have to have it." Why not use your own eye and trust the pro's at PCGS? Its just another gimmick company putting their hand in the till.
Austin Powers from Goldmember:
"Gol Blimey! All your privates have had their privates painted gold? How bizarre. Imagine: gilded talleywhackers, golden wedding tackle, 14 Karot trouser snakes..." Basil Exposition: "That's enough." Austin: "Okay."
I think he put it nicely.
Here is the only "gold" that should matter in coin collecting...
Rant over.
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU!!!!
Biggest gimmick EVER!!!!
Not picking on dime collectors, I own a bunch. My point, you can buy 1944-S in 64 for 10-20 bucks. You can buy the same coin in 66 for 20-30 bucks. Who cares if the MS64 gets a gold, it is still worth the same money.
So you only bid less than half of what you believed the coin was worth. Not sure what the point is here? If it immediately sold for 13K after a short trip to NGC, you had zero chance of winning at 40% right?
So you only bid less than half of what you believed the coin was worth. Not sure what the point is here? If it immediately sold for 13K after a short trip to NGC, you had zero chance of winning at 40% right?
I thought you were sharper than that. No one in that auction room that day bid 50% of what that coin would be "worth" the following month. Nobody. I suspect the high bidder might have been willing to go to a net $6000-$6500 had they been pushed. But we don't know that. It's all about risk vs. reward. For all I know that coin was won by a dealer consortium not willing to bid themselves up. That happens a lot. Their max could have been a lot higher if they were confident as a group they'd get the 68 grade. And those guys have "ways" of getting the grade that I do not. Seen that first hand a number of time since 1988.
No one but a fool would bid 100% FMV of what a coin "could" be worth on it's very best day at the TPG....unless we're talking an irreplaceable, once in 15-25 year type opportunity...which this wasn't. If the coin comes back MS67 you at best break even, maybe make a couple hundred bucks, or more likely lose $500. I never assumed I had 0% chance of winning that coin. I bid nearly 3X it's PCGS MS66 holdered price....on the "chance" it might upgrade 2 points. I thought my odds were excellent of winning the coin as long as no one else was figuring it better than 67+. Tell me how many times you've bid at major auction 1-1/2 to 2 pts higher on PCGS gem seated coins...where getting a 2 pt upgrade is the only way you can win? I knew the coin was worth $5200 to me as a very high end MS67. I calculated my possible downside at $500-$1,000 - upside $5-6K as a MS68 with maybe a 50-50 or 65-35 shot of getting that grade (based on gut feel, not on personal statistics). If I was going by statistics, my chances of getting a 68 were 0%. I've never made one.
Sometimes, I've been quite wrong in my assessments...like anyone else. I didn't think the coin would be worth $13K as a 68, maybe $10K-$12K max. First you have to get the upgrade. I've never made a single MS68 NGC seated, bust, or Barber type coin....forget getting a PCGS MS68. So we're in unchartered territory here gambling on a 2 pt upgrade from PCGS's graders and getting a grade you've never achieved. How many (previously raw) MS68 seated coins have you made Wabbitt?
This thread is about gold CAC (ie under-graded coins) and paying big money for them. I stuck my neck out on that coin, along with a couple other dealers across the country who saw what I saw. I underestimated the final price by 10%. I never "believed" the coin was worth $13K. What I did believe was that it had a decent "chance" to upgrade to 68. Now how many tries that takes or if it ever happens is another story. There is never a sure thing with upgrades. There's a long list of former crack out dealers who went under and either left the hobby or now work for another dealer. PCGS would never MS68 that coin...not even today. CAC would likely not have stickered it as a 68 either...if that helps you any. But, in 2002, NGC would have seen that coin as 67+ or 68 imo. Bigging MS67+ was as good as I could do.
Your MS66+ PCGS 1837 no stars half dime CAC gold was shown on here quite a bit. Just from the photos I told you early on that coin was solid MS67, nearly without flaw. Now take it a step further and call it a 68 shot....which it probably is....on some day...in some future year. Tell me how you'd be paying pop 1 PCGS MS68 money for that coin today ($40K to $50K?) based on your gut feel that it has decent upgrade potential "someday." Not so easy to fork over the $50K is it? (or the $10K in my case). This is basically the same situation I was in with the MS66 no drapery half dime. Since you no longer own that 1837 half dime, we can forego any discussions about you getting a MS68 shot. The MS67 grade jump was easy on both our coins. I bid MS67+ money. It took MS67++ money to win it. Rather than criticize me for "losing" it, why don't you go after Pinnacle who paid the upgrader something in the $10K-$12K range for that coin...when they could have just as easily gotten it for $6K by outbidding all of us and pocketing the extra $5K.
Ironically, I already owned a high end NGC MS67 CAC no drapery half dime that I bought back in 1993. Made a number of attempts to get it upgraded to NGC MS68. None successful. Final time out in 2009 it went 67* and sold at auction later that year for $10,000....3X PCGS MS67 standard money. I always "knew" that this coin grading MS67 back in 1990 (old holder) would someday 68. But hoping or knowing doesn't count....only when. Gene Gardner ended up with it. When his coins were sold in 2015 it was in an NGC MS68 holder...no CAC. It took another 6 years. I think it sold for around $14K for him.
1) You mention that you are looking at PICTURES of coins, in holders and with a gold CAC sticker, on ebay, and that YOU, GOING ON JUST THE PICTURES, believe they are 'accurately graded.
2) The gold CAC sticker means that JA has, in seeing the coin inhand, and in person, decided that, in his opinion the coin EXCEEDS the holder grade.
Sure, PCGS graders have already graded it. They put THEIR opinion of the grade on the holder. JA has put HIS opinion on the holder (if stickered) as well.
Both of those have seen the coin in hand....not just an ebay photo.
So, some people bidding have decided that they are putting more weight into what JA has decided with the gold sticker and many may/do believe that a future PCGS (or other TPGS) opinion may put the coin higher than the current grade as well.
Just reading how you have written your OP, it is almost like you have sour grapes in that coins that you are interested in, you aren't winning at what you want to bid.
I have gotten a few gold CAC stickers on coins I have submitted and I will say this.....you (generically speaking) will NOT be getting these coins at the stated price level for the stated grade.
The reason isn't because they have that gold sticker. It is because I have the coins in hand and I believe them to be better than the grade on them. Call it what you will...ownership adds a point or whatever, but these coins truly do stand out for me, and I would be charging a premium if I were to ever sell them.
Do YOU even have any gold stickered coins? either purchased or submitted from your own coins? If so, would YOU sell them for the grey sheet pricing of the stated grade, as you seem to allude to what people should do?
If not, well, I'll just say "hmmmm"
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Not picking on dime collectors, I own a bunch. My point, you can buy 1944-S in 64 for 10-20 bucks. You can buy the same coin in 66 for 20-30 bucks. Who cares if the MS64 gets a gold, it is still worth the same money.
I know, I was just teasing you a bit. I get what you were saying. A gold bean on the right coin and you reap the whirlwind.
Slabs took away the fun of albums
Stickers are taking the fun out of slabs.
Next will be taking the fun out of coins in general.
We need a GREEN STRIPED sticker to indicate coins that are at least THREE grades under.
Slabs took away the fun of albums
Stickers are taking the fun out of slabs.
Next will be taking the fun out of coins in general....
No fair...unless we also have a RED striped sticker to denote coins that are 2-3 grades over.
I've seen a few. Though 2 grades over is the most I've typically run across on gem seated. The worst was a MS66 pop 1, finest graded either service by 2 points. It was later downgraded to MS65. And upon further research, I found out when it was raw it fetched MS64 money...before coming back as a slabbed MS66. And it's first time out in the MS65 holder....it fetched MS64 money too. I graded the coin 63+.
I also believe that a Gold CAC lets people buy an perceived undergraded coin with less fear or risk.
I thought you were sharper than that.
Nope, I would have been the dummy paying the $5800.
Roadrunner, my point is, even though I hear all the time, buy the coin not the holder/stickers/toning/whatever, Not very many actually do that. You thought the coin was a 68 but without the insurance of the slab, you could not buy the coin for what it was worth. I agree.
I also believe that a Gold CAC lets people buy an perceived undergraded coin with less fear or risk.
I never thought that coin was an all there MS68.....just that NGC "would likely" grade it MS68 at some point in time...ideally within a few months. It had "good" upgrade potential. That's not a technical grade though. And that's only hope.
I also knew it had zero chance of going anything higher than PCGS MS67 at that time. I graded the coin 67++. But in no way did I feel it was a solid MS68 coin. There's a subtle difference in what you think the coin really is and what the final grade is. They are often not the same thing. That coin is a MS67++ today...even if it resides in a 68 holder. Same comment on my MS67 half dime above that now resides in a 68 holder too. It doesn't change the fact that I think both are technical 67++ coins. Getting an upgrade is a probability game. And that game doesn't always end with the coin in the grade it technically should be in. But up-graders don't care about that....just the arbitrage. I saw enough liner half dimes in MS68 over the years that I felt both of these half dimes would end up MS68 someday. That doesn't make it right or accurate. Someday, your ex-67+ 1837 will probably be in a PCGS 68 holder as the first one. That doesn't make it a sure thing or the right thing.....but, just another grading event. There's more to an upgrade than just the technical/market merits of the coin itself. You can be "right"....and still lose.
Nope, I would have been the dummy paying the $5800.
Had you or I won that coin for $5800, I'd submit neither of us would have gotten the upgrade. We'd be staring at a loss. The guy(s) that did win it, and I'm pretty sure it was a group, certainly had more pull than us Joe Schmoes. That coin stuck out in the auction like a sore thumb so you know the insider crack-out dealers would not all compete on it to allow only 1 guy to win. Again, seen it with my own eyes. At one point I figured why work against them? I submitted some of my coins through those guys while giving up a sizable % of the upgrade potential/commission....and got a higher % of wins. Maybe it was just coincidence....or I was dreaming.
this thread needs more photos
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Best, SH
Honestly, with the exception of (1) 1851 3 cent silver, every single cac gold coin I have seen has been quite nice
A few years ago I was bidding on an 1854-D $3.00 PCGS VF-35 Gold CAC, it went for au-55 money (which it would regrade at if submitted, I didn't win it but tried.
Step 1: Learn the market.
Step 2: Learn to grade.
Step 3: Find the coin.
Step 4: Determine the market price.
Step 5: Buy the coin.
Don't like the price? Grade too high? Wrong TPG holder? Wrong color sticker? Lacking a sticker? Well ... then don't buy the coin. If you can successfully complete Steps 1 through 4, then the holder, sticker color, etc, are not relevant.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
If you can successfully complete Steps 1 through 4, then the holder, sticker color, etc, are not relevant.
That's true if you have no concern about getting your money back someday, or even making a profit. If that is a concern to you, especially when spending thousands of dollars on your coins, then most anything attached/surrounding the coin (TPG, stickers, labels, type and age of holder, etc.) all make a difference when it's time to sell. They are all quite relevant. If you don't believe it, just see how many people crack out all their coins when it's time to sell and market them all raw. It's never about what "we" think when it comes time to sell....only what the "market" thinks matters.
No gold CACs. But my best CAC gold candidate was sold 2 months ago to a fellow forum member who bought it from me before I ever bothered to try it. Since it was an OGH VF35 better date $10 Indian with 40% luster, and I got XF45 money for it.....it was essentially gold CAC'd between us. A gold bean would still add some value, but not a ton. Still, I'd be curious if this will get a gold sticker someday....just to know exactly what it took...or didn't take.
If you can successfully complete Steps 1 through 4, then the holder, sticker color, etc, are not relevant.
That's true if you have no concern about getting your money back someday, or even making a profit. If that is a concern to you, especially when spending thousands of dollars on your coins, then most anything attached/surrounding the coin (TPG, stickers, labels, type and age of holder, etc.) all make a difference when it's time to sell. They are all quite relevant. If you don't believe it, just see how many people crack out all their coins when it's time to sell and market them all raw. It's never about what "we" think when it comes time to sell....only what the "market" thinks matters.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Gold beans are indeed very hard to receive and accordingly should be valued with that in mind however, there has to be limits.
I've only got a single gold bean on a common MS 65 FB 1944 D Mercury Dime in a rattler. I've probably sent about a hundred coins to CAC by this point. What I do is review each coin only sending really nice solid for the grade (in my often flawed opinion) candidates. I've gotten good enough at it where I'm batting about 700 now. There are some coins I send that I'm convinced will get the gold. They do not.
Gold beans are indeed very hard to receive and accordingly should be valued with that in mind however, there has to be limits.
Why bother sending a $25 coin to CAC to begin with? Odd are you won't get a Gold sticker, but even if you do, a 66+ is worth $40-$50.
QA thingy. Think PCGS and NGC need to enlarge the holders to handle all the add-on stickers?
By the way, what the heck is that QA sticker?
Even with the most experienced collectors, you can do all that and get selectively hammered despite doing "nothing wrong." I had a number of PCGS and NGC coins that I always felt (and still do) were solid for the grade. When those didn't sticker, their values dropped dramatically....the NGC coins as much 30-40%. The TPG certainly matters. Even some of my stickered NGC gem type coins brought 10-15% less than unstickered PCGS coins in the same holder. Everything matters at distribution time....even voodoo....which I forgot to apply.
The higher the grades and price levels, the more it all matters. For me it was coins in the $2K-$25K range. Thank heavens any coins I had above that level all stickered. The NGC discounts became even steeper on NGC stickered coins once CAC came around. The baby was tossed out with the bath water. I never saw that coming...but should have. All NGC coins became tainted during the 2008-2011 period. Maybe that's softened a bit in the past couple of years. The general dislike for non-PCGS slabbed coins is quite prevalent here.
As to the OP's question: "Why do people have the misconception that Gold CAC, or green CAC for that matter, have any bearing on value?" Because the market as a whole has deemed that they add value. Whether or not you or I agree is pretty much irrelevant.
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