Both Morgan and Peace dollars were circulating side by side through the early 1960's. So if the government had decided to use the Morgan design instead of the Peace design for newly issued silver dollars, it would likely have been readily accepted by the public and would not have looked out of place.
The mint would have had to make a new master die (very unlikely that an original in usable condition would have survived, especially with the Peace dollars created and minted in the interval)
Do we know if the original Morgan plasters were preserved? This (1964) was before modern laser scanners and CNC routers which would be used today.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Well...this was certainly an unexpected surprise.... away from the forum for a day or so and a numismatic bomb explodes.... will be interesting to follow. Cheers, RickO
Fred Weinberg seems to be the expert on inside information on this. Is this consistent with what he has revealed? The US Government have now in their possession a counterfeit coin.
On my way home from the Anaheim ANA show, I got a call from John Dannreuther. He had told me a few months earlier that he had a real Morgan dollar bombshell, and apparently the 64 Morgan was it. During our discussion, he described a visit to the mint and they had discovered that they had prepared 1964 Morgan dollar dies which were planned on being used in Philadelphia, while the 1964 Peace dollar dies were sent to Denver. Based on our conversation, the 1964 Morgan dollars were never struck, even though the dies had been prepared. I then asked him about the design, and if it was as shoddy as the 1921 Morgan. He said that it was much closer to the 1879-1904 design than to that of the 1921. I then wondered both designs were revived to prepare to satisfy demand for both types of coins that were being released from Treasury bags in 1963, or if the Morgan dollar would be a proof set issue, but there's no real answer to those questions, only conjecture.
I have a feeling that if you were given free reign to poke through the "back room archive" of any production facility, you might find some interesting things. (Interesting to people in the business, anyway).
In this case, the mint would be the production facility, and any coin collector would be the interested party.
If the mints were just testing the equipment and processes for silver dollar production, (which they hadn't done in nearly 30 years), they might have pulled up whatever design was handy? News of the 1964D Peace leaked out....but maybe they used another die/hub/design and were just a little quieter in Philly, or elsewhere?
The mint would have had to make a new master die (very unlikely that an original in usable condition would have survived, especially with the Peace dollars created and minted in the interval)
Do we know if the original Morgan plasters were preserved? This (1964) was before modern laser scanners and CNC routers which would be used today.
First of all, I have no clue as to what this report is all about.
Second, and purely as a technological aside, by 1964 counterfeiters had the technology to very accurately re-create an old coin design in steel, which could then be modified by changing the date or anything else they wanted to change.
A mint could have used such technology to re-create dies and hubs of an old design if they wanted to re-issue that design. The Philadelphia Mint could have used such technology to re-create the Peace dollar design from any existing Peace dollar, or the Morgan dollar design from a pre-1905 coin, in the 1964-65 era if they wanted to, though I have never heard that they did. My gut feeling is that they were too stodgy and set in their ways to use such technology, but that is mere conjecture on my part.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
If the US Mint still has the old Morgan dollar dies, they could make a killing making these coins again, proof, dmpl etc...In 12 years they could do a 150 Anniversary of the design...
As per messydesk's report it sounds like "1964"-dated Morgan dollar dies existed an one point, but no coins were struck from them. Thus the mock-up image for the Red Book. Whether or not those hubs or dies still exist is the question.
If they do not, then maybe a "1964" Fantasy-date Morgan Dollar over-strike is possible ?
As per messydesk's report it sounds like "1964"-dated Morgan dollar dies existed an one point, but no coins were struck from them.
Thus the mock-up image for the Red Book. Whether or not those hubs or dies still exist is the question.
If they do not, then maybe a "1964" Fantasy-date Morgan Dollar over-strike is possible ?
As with the 1964-dated Peace dollars, can you be absolutely positive, cross your heart and hope to die sure that no 1964-dated Morgan dollars exist?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The mint would have had to make a new master die (very unlikely that an original in usable condition would have survived, especially with the Peace dollars created and minted in the interval)
Do we know if the original Morgan plasters were preserved? This (1964) was before modern laser scanners and CNC routers which would be used today.
First of all, I have no clue as to what this report is all about.
Second, and purely as a technological aside, by 1964 counterfeiters had the technology to very accurately re-create an old coin design in steel, which could then be modified by changing the date or anything else they wanted to change.
A mint could have used such technology to re-create dies and hubs of an old design if they wanted to re-issue that design. The Philadelphia Mint could have used such technology to re-create the Peace dollar design from any existing Peace dollar, or the Morgan dollar design from a pre-1905 coin, in the 1964-65 era if they wanted to, though I have never heard that they did. My gut feeling is that they were too stodgy and set in their ways to use such technology, but that is mere conjecture on my part.
TD
I think the best techniques for replicating existing coins at the time were those utilized to produce the Middle Eastern counterfeits of US gold coins (like the $2.50 and $5 Indian Head). And also those that the "Omega" counterfeiter used for the high-relief St. Gaudens Double Eagles, for example. Another example is the 1959 Wheat Cent. This process involved transfer dies of one form or another from genuine original coins.
I can imagine that the Mint would be leery of issuing any coin made via such a transfer process because that would make it easier for counterfeiters to replicate one, and it would then be harder to differentiate a genuine piece from a counterfeit.
The mint would have had to make a new master die (very unlikely that an original in usable condition would have survived, especially with the Peace dollars created and minted in the interval)
Do we know if the original Morgan plasters were preserved? This (1964) was before modern laser scanners and CNC routers which would be used today.
First of all, I have no clue as to what this report is all about.
Second, and purely as a technological aside, by 1964 counterfeiters had the technology to very accurately re-create an old coin design in steel, which could then be modified by changing the date or anything else they wanted to change.
A mint could have used such technology to re-create dies and hubs of an old design if they wanted to re-issue that design. The Philadelphia Mint could have used such technology to re-create the Peace dollar design from any existing Peace dollar, or the Morgan dollar design from a pre-1905 coin, in the 1964-65 era if they wanted to, though I have never heard that they did. My gut feeling is that they were too stodgy and set in their ways to use such technology, but that is mere conjecture on my part.
TD
I think the best techniques for replicating existing coins at the time were those utilized to produce the Middle Eastern counterfeits of US gold coins (like the $2.50 and $5 Indian Head). And also those that the "Omega" counterfeiter used for the high-relief St. Gaudens Double Eagles, for example. Another example is the 1959 Wheat Cent. This process involved transfer dies of one form or another from genuine original coins.
I can imagine that the Mint would be leery of issuing any coin made via such a transfer process because that would make it easier for counterfeiters to replicate one, and it would then be harder to differentiate a genuine piece from a counterfeit.
I had in mind more that they would use the copy as a model that would be used on the Janvier reducing machine at a one-to-one ratio in lieu of a galvano set at a higher reduction rate, with appropriate re-finishing of the surfaces of the results and removal of blemishes copied from the model coin. Heck, they could even use the Janvier to enlarge the design from a coin to a new galvano-like model that the Engraver could modify as he or she saw fit.
Of course this is all speculation. I will not hold my breath waiting for the Mint to tell us what they did.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Originally posted by: dcarr As per messydesk's report it sounds like "1964"-dated Morgan dollar dies existed an one point, but no coins were struck from them. Thus the mock-up image for the Red Book. Whether or not those hubs or dies still exist is the question.
If they do not, then maybe a "1964" Fantasy-date Morgan Dollar over-strike is possible ?
As with the 1964-dated Peace dollars, can you be absolutely positive, cross your heart and hope to die sure that no 1964-dated Morgan dollars exist?
The US Treasury issued their final report on the 1964 Peace Dollars in 1974, and that report stated that the government's position is that none exist. I believe that to be correct, that no original 1964 Peace Dollars exist.. But it is not possible to ever be 100% sure that something doesn't exist. You can prove with 100% certainty that something exists. But proving that it does not exist can never be 100%. Does Bigfoot exist ? If you find one, then you can be 100% certain that they exist. But if you never find one, you can only be 99.9% certain that they don't exist.
If the government ever came to me and said I violated laws because 1964 Peace Dollars do exist, I would simply point to their own statement that said none exist, and that I was basing my activities in good faith on their official statement.
Regarding potential "1964" fantasy-date over-strike Morgan Dollars, I would certainly wait until more information comes out. If the US Treasury Department comes out with a statement indicating that none exist and none will be made, then the coast would be clear, so to speak.
As per messydesk's report it sounds like "1964"-dated Morgan dollar dies existed an one point, but no coins were struck from them.
Thus the mock-up image for the Red Book. Whether or not those hubs or dies still exist is the question.
If they do not, then maybe a "1964" Fantasy-date Morgan Dollar over-strike is possible ?
As with the 1964-dated Peace dollars, can you be absolutely positive, cross your heart and hope to die sure that no 1964-dated Morgan dollars exist?
The US Treasury issued their final report on the 1964 Peace Dollars in 1974, and that report stated that the government's position is that none exist. I believe that to be correct, that no original 1964 Peace Dollars exist.. But it is not possible to ever be 100% sure that something doesn't exist. You can prove with 100% certainty that something exists. But proving that it does not exist can never be 100%. Does Bigfoot exist ? If you find one, then you can be 100% certain that they exist. But if you never find one, you can only be 99.9% certain that they don't exist.
If the government ever came to me and said I violated laws because 1964 Peace Dollars do exist, I would simply point to their own statement that said none exist, and that I was basing my activities in good faith on their official statement.
Regarding potential "1964" fantasy-date over-strike Morgan Dollars, I would certainly wait until more information comes out. If the US Treasury Department comes out with a statement indicating that none exist and none will be made, then the coast would be clear, so to speak.
If the U.S. Treasury Department came out with a statement that "x" does not exist and that "x" was never made and/or will never be made, I would automatically distrust them, but that's just me.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The mint would have had to make a new master die (very unlikely that an original in usable condition would have survived, especially with the Peace dollars created and minted in the interval)
Do we know if the original Morgan plasters were preserved? This (1964) was before modern laser scanners and CNC routers which would be used today.
First of all, I have no clue as to what this report is all about.
Second, and purely as a technological aside, by 1964 counterfeiters had the technology to very accurately re-create an old coin design in steel, which could then be modified by changing the date or anything else they wanted to change.
A mint could have used such technology to re-create dies and hubs of an old design if they wanted to re-issue that design. The Philadelphia Mint could have used such technology to re-create the Peace dollar design from any existing Peace dollar, or the Morgan dollar design from a pre-1905 coin, in the 1964-65 era if they wanted to, though I have never heard that they did. My gut feeling is that they were too stodgy and set in their ways to use such technology, but that is mere conjecture on my part.
TD
I think the best techniques for replicating existing coins at the time were those utilized to produce the Middle Eastern counterfeits of US gold coins (like the $2.50 and $5 Indian Head). And also those that the "Omega" counterfeiter used for the high-relief St. Gaudens Double Eagles, for example. Another example is the 1959 Wheat Cent. This process involved transfer dies of one form or another from genuine original coins.
I can imagine that the Mint would be leery of issuing any coin made via such a transfer process because that would make it easier for counterfeiters to replicate one, and it would then be harder to differentiate a genuine piece from a counterfeit.
I had in mind more that they would use the copy as a model that would be used on the Janvier reducing machine at a one-to-one ratio in lieu of a galvano set at a higher reduction rate, with appropriate re-finishing of the surfaces of the results and removal of blemishes copied from the model coin. Heck, they could even use the Janvier to enlarge the design from a coin to a new galvano-like model that the Engraver could modify as he or she saw fit.
Of course this is all speculation. I will not hold my breath waiting for the Mint to tell us what they did.
TD
The reason that a reduction lathe produces good-quality hubs and dies is the reduction aspect of it. If there is no significant reduction, the engraving quality and sharpness will not be there.
Here is an example from the 1970s where (I believe) the US Mint put a 3.0-inch diameter John Adams medal die on a reduction lathe to make a 1.25-inch die. This was probably done because the original plaster sculpt for that medal was lost or damaged. After engraving, a "D" mint mark was punched into the die. Note how much sharper the "D" is than the rest of it, and also the "lathe lines" and overall fuzziness due to the limited reduction:
The reason that the 1921 Morgan Dollars are different than the earlier ones is because new sculpts (and master hubs) were made for it. Was that because there were no longer any plasters of the 1879-1904 version available? Or were new sculpts made for ease-of-striking reasons ?
Were the 1921-style sculpts still around in 1964 ? If the 1921 style was easier to strike and no 1879-1904 sculpts were available, why would the Mint make the 1964 Morgan Dollars using the 1879-1904 style ? They would have had to create a whole new sculpt for it.
"Mint officials had also considered using Morgan's design; this idea was dropped and Gasparro replicated the Peace dollar dies."
Bit of trivia that was news to me: They actually struck 316,076 1964D Peace dollars!
Other bit of trivia: "Some Peace dollars using a base metal composition were struck as experimental pieces in 1970 in anticipation of the approval of the Eisenhower dollar; they are all presumed destroyed."
Originally posted by: TommyType While not exactly an accepted as a scholarly numismatic reference, Wikipedia has an interesting entry on the 1964D Peace dollar.
"Mint officials had also considered using Morgan's design; this idea was dropped and Gasparro replicated the Peace dollar dies."
Bit of trivia that was news to me: They actually struck 316,076 1964D Peace dollars!
Other bit of trivia: "Some Peace dollars using a base metal composition were struck as experimental pieces in 1970 in anticipation of the approval of the Eisenhower dollar; they are all presumed destroyed."
Clearly we should now view the Peace Dollar as simply a 15-year commemorative series marking the end of World War I, while the regular issue Morgan Dollar was simply "not struck" from 1905-1920, 1922-1963 and 1965-1970, and then replaced with the Ike Dollar in 1971.
Yeah....I think that maybe this thread is intended for actual mint products.
Added:
That was probably harsh.
My only point is that dropping pictures of "fantasy pieces", without identifying them as such, into a discussion about possible mint rarities only serves to confuse people. Not everyone knows where they came from, and future "rumors" from people that they have actually SEEN a 1970 Ike just creates new myths.
Originally posted by: FredWeinberg I can't provide any details, except that it's never been released (heck, it wasn't known!) from any Government facility. Ie; it's still in govt. hands.
It would be a fantastic item to be put on display at the next ANA, that's for sure....
This is all very interesting and I am not a Morgan Dollar person, even though I have a couple.
This is where my mind goes: If this exists, the dies exist and this fancy information is just now coming to light then I have to ask, WHAT ELSE IS HIDING AT THE US MINT WAITING TO BE DISCOVERED. My guess....A LOT! How cool would it be to just go on a scavenger hunt through all of the storage, boxes, desks, drawers, safes, rooms etc at the different facilities? The US Mint does not have the man power to do this but if security could be arranged, I bet a bunch of numismatic professionals and authors would jump at the chance to see what could be discovered.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
Now if the mint was smart they would figure away to get out of their own way and turn a blind eye to the rule book and struck up 25k of these. What a shot in the arm to the hobby. This would be the first Morgan I would own.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Well, now we will know what the 1964 PEACE dollars looked like!
Shazam!
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Is it just some foolish "newly" discovered counterfeit, and they are playing this up? If so, dumb!
No.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Well, on the reverse anyway.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Interesting doubled profile.
Looking at that picture, as has been mentioned, one immediately gets a Chinese vibe.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
OINK
My Jefferson Registry:
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/191115
Cover art is obviously a mock-up
Several reputable people are saying it's real
More, much more to come...
The mint would have had to make a new master die (very unlikely that an original in usable condition would have survived, especially with the Peace dollars created and minted in the interval)
Do we know if the original Morgan plasters were preserved? This (1964) was before modern laser scanners and CNC routers which would be used today.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Hey Daniel...let's put on hold your plan to release overstruck 1964 Morgans, okay?
Lance.
I have considered a "1920" fantasy-date over-strike Morgan Dollar.
But I had not ever considered a "1964" Morgan.
Somebody beat you to it?
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
My YouTube Channel
In this case, the mint would be the production facility, and any coin collector would be the interested party.
If the mints were just testing the equipment and processes for silver dollar production, (which they hadn't done in nearly 30 years), they might have pulled up whatever design was handy? News of the 1964D Peace leaked out....but maybe they used another die/hub/design and were just a little quieter in Philly, or elsewhere?
So...
Cover art is obviously a mock-up
Several reputable people are saying it's real
More, much more to come...
The mint would have had to make a new master die (very unlikely that an original in usable condition would have survived, especially with the Peace dollars created and minted in the interval)
Do we know if the original Morgan plasters were preserved? This (1964) was before modern laser scanners and CNC routers which would be used today.
First of all, I have no clue as to what this report is all about.
Second, and purely as a technological aside, by 1964 counterfeiters had the technology to very accurately re-create an old coin design in steel, which could then be modified by changing the date or anything else they wanted to change.
A mint could have used such technology to re-create dies and hubs of an old design if they wanted to re-issue that design. The Philadelphia Mint could have used such technology to re-create the Peace dollar design from any existing Peace dollar, or the Morgan dollar design from a pre-1905 coin, in the 1964-65 era if they wanted to, though I have never heard that they did. My gut feeling is that they were too stodgy and set in their ways to use such technology, but that is mere conjecture on my part.
TD
Thus the mock-up image for the Red Book. Whether or not those hubs or dies still exist is the question.
If they do not, then maybe a "1964" Fantasy-date Morgan Dollar over-strike is possible ?
As per messydesk's report it sounds like "1964"-dated Morgan dollar dies existed an one point, but no coins were struck from them.
Thus the mock-up image for the Red Book. Whether or not those hubs or dies still exist is the question.
If they do not, then maybe a "1964" Fantasy-date Morgan Dollar over-strike is possible ?
As with the 1964-dated Peace dollars, can you be absolutely positive, cross your heart and hope to die sure that no 1964-dated Morgan dollars exist?
So...
Cover art is obviously a mock-up
Several reputable people are saying it's real
More, much more to come...
The mint would have had to make a new master die (very unlikely that an original in usable condition would have survived, especially with the Peace dollars created and minted in the interval)
Do we know if the original Morgan plasters were preserved? This (1964) was before modern laser scanners and CNC routers which would be used today.
First of all, I have no clue as to what this report is all about.
Second, and purely as a technological aside, by 1964 counterfeiters had the technology to very accurately re-create an old coin design in steel, which could then be modified by changing the date or anything else they wanted to change.
A mint could have used such technology to re-create dies and hubs of an old design if they wanted to re-issue that design. The Philadelphia Mint could have used such technology to re-create the Peace dollar design from any existing Peace dollar, or the Morgan dollar design from a pre-1905 coin, in the 1964-65 era if they wanted to, though I have never heard that they did. My gut feeling is that they were too stodgy and set in their ways to use such technology, but that is mere conjecture on my part.
TD
I think the best techniques for replicating existing coins at the time were those utilized to produce the Middle Eastern counterfeits of US gold coins (like the $2.50 and $5 Indian Head). And also those that the "Omega" counterfeiter used for the high-relief St. Gaudens Double Eagles, for example. Another example is the 1959 Wheat Cent. This process involved transfer dies of one form or another from genuine original coins.
I can imagine that the Mint would be leery of issuing any coin made via such a transfer process because that would make it easier for counterfeiters to replicate one, and it would then be harder to differentiate a genuine piece from a counterfeit.
So...
Cover art is obviously a mock-up
Several reputable people are saying it's real
More, much more to come...
The mint would have had to make a new master die (very unlikely that an original in usable condition would have survived, especially with the Peace dollars created and minted in the interval)
Do we know if the original Morgan plasters were preserved? This (1964) was before modern laser scanners and CNC routers which would be used today.
First of all, I have no clue as to what this report is all about.
Second, and purely as a technological aside, by 1964 counterfeiters had the technology to very accurately re-create an old coin design in steel, which could then be modified by changing the date or anything else they wanted to change.
A mint could have used such technology to re-create dies and hubs of an old design if they wanted to re-issue that design. The Philadelphia Mint could have used such technology to re-create the Peace dollar design from any existing Peace dollar, or the Morgan dollar design from a pre-1905 coin, in the 1964-65 era if they wanted to, though I have never heard that they did. My gut feeling is that they were too stodgy and set in their ways to use such technology, but that is mere conjecture on my part.
TD
I think the best techniques for replicating existing coins at the time were those utilized to produce the Middle Eastern counterfeits of US gold coins (like the $2.50 and $5 Indian Head). And also those that the "Omega" counterfeiter used for the high-relief St. Gaudens Double Eagles, for example. Another example is the 1959 Wheat Cent. This process involved transfer dies of one form or another from genuine original coins.
I can imagine that the Mint would be leery of issuing any coin made via such a transfer process because that would make it easier for counterfeiters to replicate one, and it would then be harder to differentiate a genuine piece from a counterfeit.
I had in mind more that they would use the copy as a model that would be used on the Janvier reducing machine at a one-to-one ratio in lieu of a galvano set at a higher reduction rate, with appropriate re-finishing of the surfaces of the results and removal of blemishes copied from the model coin. Heck, they could even use the Janvier to enlarge the design from a coin to a new galvano-like model that the Engraver could modify as he or she saw fit.
Of course this is all speculation. I will not hold my breath waiting for the Mint to tell us what they did.
TD
As per messydesk's report it sounds like "1964"-dated Morgan dollar dies existed an one point, but no coins were struck from them.
Thus the mock-up image for the Red Book. Whether or not those hubs or dies still exist is the question.
If they do not, then maybe a "1964" Fantasy-date Morgan Dollar over-strike is possible ?
As with the 1964-dated Peace dollars, can you be absolutely positive, cross your heart and hope to die sure that no 1964-dated Morgan dollars exist?
The US Treasury issued their final report on the 1964 Peace Dollars in 1974, and that report stated that the government's position is that none exist. I believe that to be correct, that no original 1964 Peace Dollars exist.. But it is not possible to ever be 100% sure that something doesn't exist. You can prove with 100% certainty that something exists. But proving that it does not exist can never be 100%. Does Bigfoot exist ? If you find one, then you can be 100% certain that they exist. But if you never find one, you can only be 99.9% certain that they don't exist.
If the government ever came to me and said I violated laws because 1964 Peace Dollars do exist, I would simply point to their own statement that said none exist, and that I was basing my activities in good faith on their official statement.
Regarding potential "1964" fantasy-date over-strike Morgan Dollars, I would certainly wait until more information comes out. If the US Treasury Department comes out with a statement indicating that none exist and none will be made, then the coast would be clear, so to speak.
As per messydesk's report it sounds like "1964"-dated Morgan dollar dies existed an one point, but no coins were struck from them.
Thus the mock-up image for the Red Book. Whether or not those hubs or dies still exist is the question.
I'm pretty sure the dies still exist. I'm told there will be photos released once the Mint gives permission.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
As per messydesk's report it sounds like "1964"-dated Morgan dollar dies existed an one point, but no coins were struck from them.
Thus the mock-up image for the Red Book. Whether or not those hubs or dies still exist is the question.
If they do not, then maybe a "1964" Fantasy-date Morgan Dollar over-strike is possible ?
As with the 1964-dated Peace dollars, can you be absolutely positive, cross your heart and hope to die sure that no 1964-dated Morgan dollars exist?
The US Treasury issued their final report on the 1964 Peace Dollars in 1974, and that report stated that the government's position is that none exist. I believe that to be correct, that no original 1964 Peace Dollars exist.. But it is not possible to ever be 100% sure that something doesn't exist. You can prove with 100% certainty that something exists. But proving that it does not exist can never be 100%. Does Bigfoot exist ? If you find one, then you can be 100% certain that they exist. But if you never find one, you can only be 99.9% certain that they don't exist.
If the government ever came to me and said I violated laws because 1964 Peace Dollars do exist, I would simply point to their own statement that said none exist, and that I was basing my activities in good faith on their official statement.
Regarding potential "1964" fantasy-date over-strike Morgan Dollars, I would certainly wait until more information comes out. If the US Treasury Department comes out with a statement indicating that none exist and none will be made, then the coast would be clear, so to speak.
If the U.S. Treasury Department came out with a statement that "x" does not exist and that "x" was never made and/or will never be made, I would automatically distrust them, but that's just me.
So...
Cover art is obviously a mock-up
Several reputable people are saying it's real
More, much more to come...
The mint would have had to make a new master die (very unlikely that an original in usable condition would have survived, especially with the Peace dollars created and minted in the interval)
Do we know if the original Morgan plasters were preserved? This (1964) was before modern laser scanners and CNC routers which would be used today.
First of all, I have no clue as to what this report is all about.
Second, and purely as a technological aside, by 1964 counterfeiters had the technology to very accurately re-create an old coin design in steel, which could then be modified by changing the date or anything else they wanted to change.
A mint could have used such technology to re-create dies and hubs of an old design if they wanted to re-issue that design. The Philadelphia Mint could have used such technology to re-create the Peace dollar design from any existing Peace dollar, or the Morgan dollar design from a pre-1905 coin, in the 1964-65 era if they wanted to, though I have never heard that they did. My gut feeling is that they were too stodgy and set in their ways to use such technology, but that is mere conjecture on my part.
TD
I think the best techniques for replicating existing coins at the time were those utilized to produce the Middle Eastern counterfeits of US gold coins (like the $2.50 and $5 Indian Head). And also those that the "Omega" counterfeiter used for the high-relief St. Gaudens Double Eagles, for example. Another example is the 1959 Wheat Cent. This process involved transfer dies of one form or another from genuine original coins.
I can imagine that the Mint would be leery of issuing any coin made via such a transfer process because that would make it easier for counterfeiters to replicate one, and it would then be harder to differentiate a genuine piece from a counterfeit.
I had in mind more that they would use the copy as a model that would be used on the Janvier reducing machine at a one-to-one ratio in lieu of a galvano set at a higher reduction rate, with appropriate re-finishing of the surfaces of the results and removal of blemishes copied from the model coin. Heck, they could even use the Janvier to enlarge the design from a coin to a new galvano-like model that the Engraver could modify as he or she saw fit.
Of course this is all speculation. I will not hold my breath waiting for the Mint to tell us what they did.
TD
The reason that a reduction lathe produces good-quality hubs and dies is the reduction aspect of it. If there is no significant reduction, the engraving quality and sharpness will not be there.
Here is an example from the 1970s where (I believe) the US Mint put a 3.0-inch diameter John Adams medal die on a reduction lathe to make a 1.25-inch die. This was probably done because the original plaster sculpt for that medal was lost or damaged. After engraving, a "D" mint mark was punched into the die. Note how much sharper the "D" is than the rest of it, and also the "lathe lines" and overall fuzziness due to the limited reduction:
The reason that the 1921 Morgan Dollars are different than the earlier ones is because new sculpts (and master hubs) were made for it.
Was that because there were no longer any plasters of the 1879-1904 version available? Or were new sculpts made for ease-of-striking reasons ?
Were the 1921-style sculpts still around in 1964 ?
If the 1921 style was easier to strike and no 1879-1904 sculpts were available, why would the Mint make the 1964 Morgan Dollars using the 1879-1904 style ?
They would have had to create a whole new sculpt for it.
Link
The lone mention of the Morgan design is:
"Mint officials had also considered using Morgan's design; this idea was dropped and Gasparro replicated the Peace dollar dies."
Bit of trivia that was news to me: They actually struck 316,076 1964D Peace dollars!
Other bit of trivia: "Some Peace dollars using a base metal composition were struck as experimental pieces in 1970 in anticipation of the approval of the Eisenhower dollar; they are all presumed destroyed."
Something new to keep an eye out for.
While not exactly an accepted as a scholarly numismatic reference, Wikipedia has an interesting entry on the 1964D Peace dollar.
Link
The lone mention of the Morgan design is:
"Mint officials had also considered using Morgan's design; this idea was dropped and Gasparro replicated the Peace dollar dies."
Bit of trivia that was news to me: They actually struck 316,076 1964D Peace dollars!
Other bit of trivia: "Some Peace dollars using a base metal composition were struck as experimental pieces in 1970 in anticipation of the approval of the Eisenhower dollar; they are all presumed destroyed."
Something new to keep an eye out for.
Hmm...
A "1970" Peace Dollar to go with these:
Hmm...
A "1970" Peace Dollar to go with these:
Yeah....I think that maybe this thread is intended for actual mint products.
Added:
That was probably harsh.
My only point is that dropping pictures of "fantasy pieces", without identifying them as such, into a discussion about possible mint rarities only serves to confuse people. Not everyone knows where they came from, and future "rumors" from people that they have actually SEEN a 1970 Ike just creates new myths.
Look for this coin to be listed on eBay soon...
no kidding. coming to a store near you soon
I can't provide any details, except that
it's never been released (heck, it wasn't known!)
from any Government facility. Ie; it's still in
govt. hands.
It would be a fantastic item to be put on
display at the next ANA, that's for sure....
that would be totally amazing to see
This is where my mind goes: If this exists, the dies exist and this fancy information is just now coming to light then I have to ask, WHAT ELSE IS HIDING AT THE US MINT WAITING TO BE DISCOVERED. My guess....A LOT! How cool would it be to just go on a scavenger hunt through all of the storage, boxes, desks, drawers, safes, rooms etc at the different facilities? The US Mint does not have the man power to do this but if security could be arranged, I bet a bunch of numismatic professionals and authors would jump at the chance to see what could be discovered.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
William T. Gibbs, Managing Editor
Coin World
More details on what was found at the Philadelphia Mint (it is amazing): Link to Coin World story.
William T. Gibbs, Managing Editor
Coin World
Thanks for the update!
Keyman64 and Fred were right: Just a bunch of coin dudes wandering around the inner sanctum of the mint!
Cool.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A most triumphant and non-heinous find!
Rob
Successful Trades with: Coincast, MICHAELDIXON
Successful Purchases from: Manorcourtman, Meltdown
More details on what was found at the Philadelphia Mint (it is amazing): Link to Coin World story.
William T. Gibbs, Managing Editor
Coin World
Well, now we will know what the 1964 PEACE dollars looked like!
Shazam!
TD