If we have a hundred point scale it better use all 100 points. What is the point of a 70 point scale that really only has 30 (I think I counted that right) grades not counting +'s.
The Sheldon Scale doesn't work as was intended anyway, and is outdated.
The Sheldon System was outdated the moment it was published (Early American Cents, 1949). The system was based on pricing and auction records as related to dealer-assigned grades of 1794 Large cents during the second quarter of the 19th century. The Sheldon system, as proposed, requires a stable, proportional relationship between grade and price. The Sheldon system has never been used by the hobby ... only the name and numbers have been borrowed.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Eventually grading companies drive for profits will be the downfall of the hobby. The common collector is a huge driver of this industry. Once it becomes too complex and too expensive (i.e. Grading and regarding under a new system) it will drive them away.
Many of the grading/certification changes over the past 7 years have already driven many away.
Remember the fuss over CAC when it began?? All the naysayers and dire predictions? Well baby look at them now!!! Things will change, collectors will resist, accept and then laud and promote the innovation as they begin to understand and profit from it. The hobby will continue.
Remember the fuss over CAC when it began?? All the naysayers and dire predictions? Well baby look at them now!!! Things will change, collectors will resist, accept and then laud and promote the innovation as they begin to understand and profit from it. The hobby will continue.
Cheers, RickO
In fact, the naysayers were partly to mostly right. The majority of NGC coins have been decimated in the revamp, especially anything that couldn't sticker. Interesting that CAC coming on the scene around Sept-November 2008 pretty much marked the last important major peak for 65-90% of the US Coin market (excluding bullion related coins). NGC stickered major type coins now generally bring the same money as unstickered PCGS coins in the same grade. That's a success to be lauded? The fuss is far from over when half to two thirds of the certified coin market has been tossed on its ear over the past 7-8 years. Show me all those people that have profited from their unstickered MS/PF NGC coins since fall of 2008. If Pogue and Gardner took hits....how are the rest of us immune?
I agree that the hobby will continue, it always has, whether on a 70 or 100 pt system. It's an interesting concept that probably 2/3 or more of all "investment grades" of MS/PF US coinage was left behind in the 1989 peak. And that was duplicated again in 2008. That means approx 1/9th or less of all the coins have continued higher over 27 years. The only way the certified/TPG market can continue forward is to reduce the number of coins every year that are still considered "worthy." Either that, or find a way to double or triple the number of true collectors.
BillJones:It the grading services introduce the 100 grading scale it will do great damage to the hobby. I believe that it will make many dedicated collectors who have been loyal to the hobby for many years very angry.
i see 100 point scale as a gimmick.The hobby needs to get back to basics to,if not progress at least try to survive. Inventing bigger grade numbers is not better and ultimately would prove to be a poor move in my estimation.
“We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves.” — Gautama Buddha
A grading system of 70 or a 101 makes no difference to me as all of my coins would not be granted a numeric grade. I do think a 101 point system would be good for the circulated coins as well as a nightmare. It would level the field. There are 10 grades -- Poor, Fair, AG, G, VG, F, VF, XF, AU, and MS. Right now there are only 3 possible numbers for the bottom 3. I don't know about most of you, but I have seen many Poor, Fair, and AG coins assigned a grade higher because they don't have the look or the wear for the lower grade. Why should the MS grades have 11 numbers to choose from, and not all the other grades have 10. 0 to 100 would work out quite well. Assigning a number, not so much, but I am not a pro grader. I can't tell the difference between the MS points now, so why not have the circulated grades join the club. I've seen AU63 and I am sure there will be AU64 soon, meaning the coins so designated MS63 or 64 are most certainly not MS. I can usually tell a Circulated from an Uncirculated as most of you can too. Anyway, BS, would be Basal State, a coin with nothing left to identify it and not able to be encapsulated with a number. Poor00 to 09, Fair10-19 through AU80-89. MS60-70 would become MS90-100. I never mentioned Proof because a Proof covers PR00 to PR100, it is special, once a Proof, always a Proof. The only crossover problem would be Poor01, sorry lowballers. Maybe the tpg would crossover PO01 as a courtesy for their loyal customers? All the rest would be distinguishable as old system and new system. Then, it would be up to owners if they wanted to take a chance on crossover for a higher grade. I think it would create a lot of business in the circulated market, looking for a coin to go up a point or 2 instead of 5 or 10. Also, it would be a lot easier to count the number of "grades" available to collecting coins. Pluses, Stars, Colored Beans, Wing Things, and the dreaded Minuses would be another 101 each or some, if not all, may even be designated superfluous and eliminate some competition because of so many numbers to choose from. This system is not perfect, but could be tweaked. Imo, tic.
As long as the price of a coin made for general circulation can just from $2300 in grade X to $37000 in grade X + 1, where is grade is an opinion of some group of people at a moment in time, then systems will be exploited, massaged, manipulated, and defiled.
There's no sense in having 10 grading points for an AG coin because the price spread would be almost negligible from AG 3.1 to AG 3.9. However, the price spread from an MS60 to MS68 in most pre-1964 coinage can be from 10X to 100X or more....possibly even a 1000X. Likewise, the price spread from an XF40 to XF49 would typically be at most 2X, and usually less.
No grading system really works well if the grade is not repeatable submission after submission. As long as we are dealing with that sticking point, nothing else really matters. If you can repeat the grade on each submission, then it doesn't matter whether you have 70 or 100 available grading points. The TPG's have the skill to do that if they desire. They also have the skill level to identify low end, average, and high end coins as well....if they desire. It's all about how many graders you need and how long you need to stare at the coin for. Currently it's 2-4 graders and 5-15 seconds.
It is called PDS grading system (planchet, die and strike). Within each category, a coin can score between 1 to 5. Since there are 3 categories, I called it 15 point system. Rich named it PDS grading system. I think it is the best for Rick to explain here. Nonetheless, I like this system.
It is called PDS grading system (planchet, die and strike). Within each category, a coin can score between 1 to 5. Since there are 3 categories, I called it 15 point system. Rich named it PDS grading system. I think it is the best for Rick to explain here. Nonetheless, I like this system.
Seems similar to what NGC is doing with ancients. They grade Strike and Surface on a 5-point scale.
Yea, CAC and the other gimmicks that have been added have hurt my confidence, interest and joy in the hobby. I am a very dedicated collector, but garbage like a new grading scale would make me think about calling it quits.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
This is an old argument, and attempts at computer grading have been made (and failed) in the past.
But surely by now, scanning techniques can be matched with objectively-devised criteria for fundamental grading of coins (by whatever scale). Hard objectivity for technical grading can surely be implemented now with computerization. Stickers, plusses, etc., can still be left to humans for the time being for such things as "eye appeal."
Comments
http://www.shieldnickels.net
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I vote "no".
I knew it would happen.
Eventually grading companies drive for profits will be the downfall of the hobby. The common collector is a huge driver of this industry. Once it becomes too complex and too expensive (i.e. Grading and regarding under a new system) it will drive them away.
Many of the grading/certification changes over the past 7 years have already driven many away.
Cheers, RickO
Another reason I collect error coins, the grade is secondary to the error.
Ditto. Plus, make that non-U.S. error coins, and you're marching to a completely different drummer
Remember the fuss over CAC when it began?? All the naysayers and dire predictions? Well baby look at them now!!! Things will change, collectors will resist, accept and then laud and promote the innovation as they begin to understand and profit from it. The hobby will continue.
Cheers, RickO
In fact, the naysayers were partly to mostly right. The majority of NGC coins have been decimated in the revamp, especially anything that couldn't sticker. Interesting that CAC coming on the scene around Sept-November 2008 pretty much marked the last important major peak for 65-90% of the US Coin market (excluding bullion related coins). NGC stickered major type coins now generally bring the same money as unstickered PCGS coins in the same grade. That's a success to be lauded? The fuss is far from over when half to two thirds of the certified coin market has been tossed on its ear over the past 7-8 years. Show me all those people that have profited from their unstickered MS/PF NGC coins since fall of 2008. If Pogue and Gardner took hits....how are the rest of us immune?
I agree that the hobby will continue, it always has, whether on a 70 or 100 pt system. It's an interesting concept that probably 2/3 or more of all "investment grades" of MS/PF US coinage was left behind in the 1989 peak. And that was duplicated again in 2008. That means approx 1/9th or less of all the coins have continued higher over 27 years. The only way the certified/TPG market can continue forward is to reduce the number of coins every year that are still considered "worthy." Either that, or find a way to double or triple the number of true collectors.
i see 100 point scale as a gimmick.The hobby needs to get back to basics to,if not progress at least try to survive. Inventing bigger grade numbers is not better and ultimately would prove to be a poor move in my estimation.
“We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves.” — Gautama Buddha
No grading system really works well if the grade is not repeatable submission after submission. As long as we are dealing with that sticking point, nothing else really matters. If you can repeat the grade on each submission, then it doesn't matter whether you have 70 or 100 available grading points. The TPG's have the skill to do that if they desire. They also have the skill level to identify low end, average, and high end coins as well....if they desire. It's all about how many graders you need and how long you need to stare at the coin for. Currently it's 2-4 graders and 5-15 seconds.
It is called PDS grading system (planchet, die and strike). Within each category, a coin can score between 1 to 5. Since there are 3 categories, I called it 15 point system. Rich named it PDS grading system. I think it is the best for Rick to explain here. Nonetheless, I like this system.
Seems similar to what NGC is doing with ancients. They grade Strike and Surface on a 5-point scale.
If the grading services go to a 100 point scale, I am out for good.
+1
But surely by now, scanning techniques can be matched with objectively-devised criteria for fundamental grading of coins (by whatever scale). Hard objectivity for technical grading can surely be implemented now with computerization. Stickers, plusses, etc., can still be left to humans for the time being for such things as "eye appeal."
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...