Rose was an incredible hitter. Ichiro was/is an incredible hitter.
Unfortunately, they played in very different leagues. Oh well. We can speculate and wish.
I wish Iverson had a good work ethic and played baseball. He would have been a great leadoff hitter with a 20+ year career threatening many stats. Too bad he chose a different path.
On December 4, 2009, Murton was released by the Rockies,[10] who sold his contract to the Hanshin Tigers of Japan's Nippon Professional Baseball.[11] In Murton's rookie season with the Hanshin Tigers he became only the fourth player in Nippon Professional Baseball history to have a 200-hit season.[12] On October 5, 2010, Murton broke the single season hit record, set by Ichiro Suzuki (in 130 games), hitting his 211th hit (through 142 games).[13] He successfully finished his first regular season in Japan with 214 hits (in 144 games), .349 batting average, 17 home runs and 91 RBIs. Murton's single season hits record was eclipsed in 2015 by Shogo Akiyama of the Seibu Lions, who recorded 216 hits in 143 games.[14]
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I never said ichiro was chop Liver lol I said he was a great hitter but it's funny how people are just excepting those Japan league stats without looking at the huge difference in them!?!? Ichiro went from Ted Williams to Rob Carew when he crossed leagues. That's not a slight it's just a fact. He didn't hit for any power here but he did in Japan, he got on base a whole look Less and his average even dropped and you can even say he played in MLB right at the start of his prime years. I just have an issue with people not excepting that the Japanese league is a notch maybe two below MLB competition. If you feel the need to bring up the WBC to feel good then ask yourself this and be honest if we fielded a team of Machado, Bogarts, Rizzo, Harper, Trout, Kershaw on the mound etc etc when our best are at there best not during spring training do you really think we lose? If you do then I suggest like someone else wrote here... Watch more baseball.
........Rose won his only MVP in 1973, but if you look at the stats Willie Stargell should have won the award. It was a very close Mvp race 20pts separated them, but I'm not sure how a player who drives in 119 runs and hammers 44 homers doesn't win the MVP. Rose that year had 64 RBI's and 5 HR's Rose only scored 9 more runs then Stargell. I get it that Rose batted .39 pts higher then Stargell, but not enough to win the MVP.
They made right by Stargell in 1979 when he got to share the MVP for no good reason.
Originally posted by: Stan Pounder Pete Rose is half the player Ichiro is. I don't think Rose would have had that many hits if he played in this era. Haul to Ichiro the new "Hit King"
How many World Series rings does IchIro have? Rose has 3 or 4.
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Originally posted by: Stan Pounder Pete Rose is half the player Ichiro is. I don't think Rose would have had that many hits if he played in this era. Haul to Ichiro the new "Hit King"
How many World Series rings does IchIro have? Rose has 3 or 4.
Originally posted by: DanBessette 49ers guy, not only are you playing the race card in a situation in which it doesn't apply, you can't even spell the player's name right. It's IchIro. Are we really supposed to take you seriously??
With all that being said, this is the wrong forum for this thread.
I have to agree why play the race card? Isn't it more likely that he never broke the MLB hit record due to the fact he was born in Japan. Why do people always look to blame or make excuses. Sometimes it can be as simple as he was born in Japan.
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Originally posted by: Stan Pounder Pete Rose is half the player Ichiro is. I don't think Rose would have had that many hits if he played in this era. Haul to Ichiro the new "Hit King"
How many World Series rings does IchIro have? Rose has 3 or 4.
As many as Ted Williams..
This has nothing to do with Ted or any of the other greats that never won a ring.The poster above said Rose wasn't half the player Ichiro was.
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Originally posted by: Stan Pounder Pete Rose is half the player Ichiro is. I don't think Rose would have had that many hits if he played in this era. Haul to Ichiro the new "Hit King"
How many World Series rings does IchIro have? Rose has 3 or 4.
As many as Ted Williams..
This has nothing to do with Ted or any of the other greats that never won a ring.The poster above said Rose wasn't half the player Ichiro was.
I know what he said, but if rings are an indication of a single players worth than Ted Williams and Barry Bonds were scrubs.
Also, no one here has brought up Ichiro's speed. He has 504 stolen bases in the MLB alone, 703 when you include Japan, making him 11th all time. If Ichiro played his entire career in the US, he probably would've had even more! We have longer seasons and he really didn't steal much in Japan (he had 11 stolen bases in Japan in 1998, 12 in 1999, but 56 in the US in 2001). It's not far fetched to believe he could've had 800+ SBs.
Let's think about when the wbc is played. Play those games in july and watch the carnage. Do you really think a foreign league could compete against a rotation of Kershaw, arrieta, madbum, etc. We also need to look at how mlb player view these games. They are exhibitions, not viewed as important. So, you are getting players early in the year playing games with little intensity, basically trying not to get injured. There is a reason mlb is the litmus test for great baseball and not Japan. If it is such a high level of play over there, why aren't mlbers clambering to go play in Japan?
He's not on the same level as Tim Raines, either, for that matter.
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People bring up the negro league as a comparison. While a high level of play, overall, I don't think it compared to mlb. I know there were great stars on the top end, but end of the bench players I don't think compared with mlb. Also, there are too few hard stats and a lot of apocryphal stories. Look at Josh Gibson. People say 800 home runs plus. I think that is VERY unlikely. That would double the total for the current hr leader for catchers. It would be so unprecedented as to be impossible. It would be like an outfielder doubling up Aaron's total and hitting 1500 homeruns. with the abuse catchers take, 800 homeruns is just impossible, an old wives tale. If, for the sake of argument, Gibson really did hit over 800 homeruns as a catcher, it would tell you a lot about the quality of pitching overall in the negro league. I think more realistically, Gibson was a very powerful hitter who had some paul Bunyan stories told about him who could have had a great m lb career if allowed. But 800+ homeruns as a catcher, no way.
Liver lol I said he was a great hitter but it's funny how people are just excepting those Japan league stats without looking at the huge difference in them!?!? Ichiro went from Ted Williams to Rob Carew when he crossed leagues. That's not a slight it's just a fact. He didn't hit for any power here but he did in Japan, he got on base a whole look
Less and his average even dropped and you can even say he played in MLB right at the start of his prime years. I just have an issue with people not excepting that the Japanese league is a notch maybe two below MLB competition. If you feel the need to bring up the WBC to feel good then ask yourself this and be honest if we fielded a team of Machado, Bogarts, Rizzo, Harper, Trout, Kershaw on the mound etc etc when our best are at there best not during spring training do you really think we lose? If you do then I suggest like someone else wrote here... Watch more baseball.
Yeah, I know but you said he was a one-dimensional hitter and could nothing else other than slap singles. I wasn't even considering his Japan stats, only looking at MLB stats... and he has a career slugging of .405 compared to Pete Rose's .409. Ichiro has 113 HRs compared to Pete Rose's 160 (and played in the MLB 8 years longer than Ichiro has). If that was one dimensional, then so was Pete Rose. I in no way have ever hinted that Ichiro is a better ball player, but most of that has to do with defense and the intangibles... a foreigner who can't even speak the language very well is never going to be a clubhouse leader or the driving force behind their team like Charlie Hustle. Even if you didn't like Pete, you wanted him on your team for that exact reason.
Comparing bonds to ichiro as hitters. Utterly ridiculous. Ichiro isn't in the same universe as bonds.
Hitter, not batter or offensive player. Hitter... going up to the plate, hitting the ball and getting on base. That's all. Barry was the best by far, and I qualified it as "that I've seen". He was the best swinger ever too, if he swung at it, he made contact with it. I'm sure Ty Cobb was awesome but I can't compare eras that far apart, too much has changed. Ichiro is right there with Tony Gwynn, Pete Rose, and others.
Let's not forget Pete Rose and Ichiro are the only MLBers to post 10 200-hit seasons... Ichiro did it in his first 10 years in MLB! Ichiro holds two spots in the top 10 for most hits in a season, with him being #1 with 262. Of all the players in that top 10, he's the only one that played after 1930. Ichiro will get his 3000th hit this year... his 16th MLB season. Tim Raines played 23 years and only mustered 2600.
Baz, a huge part of hitting is identifying which balls to swing at. I have never heard anyone try to separate out the actual act of making contact with the ball and walking. They are both parts of "hitting" ichiro was very limited as a "hitter" because he didn't have good control of the strike zone. He swung at far too many balls outside of the zone. He made far more outs than he should have had he had better control of the zone. instead, he had to try to get halfway down the first base line, while swinging, and didn't allow the ball to get deep into the zone like the vast majority of elite hitters.
I didn't realize Raines didn't play MLB till age 27, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
He made far more outs than he should have had he had better control of the zone. instead, he had to try to get halfway down the first base line, while swinging, and didn't allow the ball to get deep into the zone like the vast majority of elite hitters.
Myth busted.
"Ichiro also wants to debunk another myth. Those fast-moving legs of his? They’re not already running toward first as he swings. “It might look that way because my weight shift from the back to the front might be bigger than other players,” Ichiro says. “Because of the weight shift, my first step might be faster than others, but you shouldn’t ever run before you swing the bat. I’ve gotten a lot of questions about that, but it’s not what I do.”"
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Professional totals for both players at all levels.
LOL, OK.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You may as well since you've already added Ichiro's minor league numbers, too..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Baz, a huge part of hitting is identifying which balls to swing at. I have never heard anyone try to separate out the actual act of making contact with the ball and walking. They are both parts of "hitting" ichiro was very limited as a "hitter" because he didn't have good control of the strike zone. He swung at far too many balls outside of the zone. He made far more outs than he should have had he had better control of the zone. instead, he had to try to get halfway down the first base line, while swinging, and didn't allow the ball to get deep into the zone like the vast majority of elite hitters.
I'm not separating making contact with the ball and walking, I'm ignoring walks because the discussion is about hitting not OBP... OBP isn't a hitting stat, hitting is one component of that stat. Wasn't even sure why you brought OBP into it? Maybe it's a terminology thing, because batting is not hitting... batting is taking a turn at bat, hitting is putting the ball in play safely. So identifying balls and strikes is an important part of an at-bat, but if you hit the ball in play and get on base it really is irrelevant. It's not like Ichiro struck out a lot, he never struck out more than 86 times and only had 4 years where he struck out over 70 times. He was and is one of the best HITTERS to ever play the game...
-- Was the 2nd fastest to 2000 hits
-- Most hits in a season EVER
-- Only the 2nd player to hold two positions in top 10 for most hits in a season (and only player since 1930 to crack it-- Boggs was 11th before Ichiro)
-- Will be only the 30th player to get 3000 hits
-- Tied (w/ Rose) for only player to have 10 200+ hit seasons (and he did them all in his first 10 years of playing, which was during the steroid era)
To achieve all that when he didn't start playing in the MLB until he was 27? No one is going to convince me he wasn't one of the best hitters ever. As far as power and intangibles... no, he was lacking and that's why he'll never be the player Bonds, Rose, and others were. But he was a great player who will be a first ballot HOFer when you consider he's also a 10-time All-Star, won 10 Gold Gloves, was ROY and MVP in his first year in the MLB, and received MVP votes in 9 of his 10 first years.
Raines was the better hitter unless we are focusing on singles or batting average, both of which can be misleading if focused on to the exclusion of other, more significant statistics. I never meant to imply that I don't consider Ichiro a terrific hitter (I do, even though he hasn't had a good season and been a below average player since 2010), but he still wasn't as good an overall hitter as Tim Raines, who is arguably as underrated as Ichiro is overrated, though Raines has finally gotten some of the consideration he deserves in recent years and should already be in the HOF.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Can you name one Japanese star that came to MLB and performed at a higher level then they did in Japan? I'd take just one and going by the numbers there best shot would be ichiro. His 522 Slugging, 350ish average and 400 plus totals are Japanese totals he had his prime to come close to that in MLB and he didn't come close. Yet we have plenty of borderline MLB regulars that wash out here go there and resurrect themselves as stars and challenge and break records. Ichiro was a great hitter he routinely lead the league in plate apperences and hits a lot of that had to do with the fact that he didn't walk. I have a hard time believing you actually believe the Japanese league is the same level as MLB. I think you just like arguing.
Here's another thing to Think about when it comes to Rose and Ichiro. For the first 7 years of his career Rose was taking swings against guys like Koufax, Gibson, Drysdale, Maraichel, Carlton, Seaver etc while Ichiro was hitting in the Japanese league. The late sixties where a nightmare for ALL MLB hitters. I just can't see the first seven years of Ichiro's career as comparable.
Raines was the better hitter unless we are focusing on singles or batting average, both of which can be misleading if focused on to the exclusion of other, more significant statistics. I never meant to imply that I don't consider Ichiro a terrific hitter (I do, even though he hasn't had a good season and been a below average player since 2010), but he still wasn't as good an overall hitter as Tim Raines, who is arguably as underrated as Ichiro is overrated, though Raines has finally gotten some of the consideration he deserves in recent years and should already be in the HOF.
Yeah, I didn't think you were dogging Ichiro... just wasn't sure how serious you were. I love me some Tim Raines and I do think he deserves to be in the HOF, but that is largely due to his ranking as one of the best leadoff hitters ever (more than just his numbers). But I would never say Raines was a better hitter than Ichiro... maybe a slightly more productive hitter, but not a better hitter. Raines only had 83 more doubles, 22 more triples 57 more HRs... and that was playing 7 more seasons than Ichiro has, which also included Raines' prime. But when you consider Ichiro grounded into 60 less double plays and will have 400 more hits than Raines, that does make up some of that difference in production. But Raines also tailed off greatly at the end of his career... probably more so than Ichiro... his last 8-9 years, he was a shell of himself and his speed (and defense) was almost completely gone.
I would also argue Mark Grace was a better hitter than Raines, but being a non-slugging first baseman and having his career cut short by an alcohol problem, I understand he will never (and should never) be a HOFer like Raines.
I'm having trouble understanding the difference between being a more productive hitter but not being better? If you wanna say Ichiro was a better contact hitter than Raines well maybe but neither of them struck out much. If you wanna say he was better at hitting singles than I'd agree but to me the Ichiro Raines discussion only comes out in favor for Ichiro if you factor in his Japanese stats is that what your doing?
This is a great discussion and has forced me to do some digging on Ichiro, here's a thought and this stat only goes through 2009 but up till and through 2009 he had 461 infield hits!!! Wonder how many he had in Japan. Yes a hit is a hit and I'm sure Cobb rose and everyone else had there share of infield hits but that's an awful lot.
I'm having trouble understanding the difference between being a more productive hitter but not being better? If you wanna say Ichiro was a better contact hitter than Raines well maybe but neither of them struck out much. If you wanna say he was better at hitting singles than I'd agree but to me the Ichiro Raines discussion only comes out in favor for Ichiro if you factor in his Japanese stats is that what your doing?
Yes, as a singles hitter was what I meant. Ichiro hits for a high average, no debating that, and his hit totals speak for themselves. But he has very little extra base power and his career OBP and OPS+ are pretty unimpressive for a guy who compiled the batting averages he did over the years. Many of his hits were also infield singles, too~nothing wrong with those and when he was a prolific base stealer some of those would equate to doubles, too, but I would classify Raiines as the more productive hitter of the two over the course of their MLB careers.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
And I would agree, one thing that always troubled me about Ichiro was with all those hits he only got on base 35% of the time. Here's a stat for people that say he's one of the best Hitters ever, with all those 200+ hit seasons he only got on base over 300 times once in his career. A guy like Boggs did that 6 out of seven years in his prime! Ichiro was great but he was and is a singles hitter focused mainly on getting hits not getting on base
Ichiro has the PROFESSIONAL baseball hit record while Pete Rose has the MLB hit record. I believe both should co-exist together because after all baseball is a global game.
EDIT: my bad, I posted this after the first page... didn't realize there was much more. Rookie mistake!
I'm having trouble understanding the difference between being a more productive hitter but not being better? If you wanna say Ichiro was a better contact hitter than Raines well maybe but neither of them struck out much. If you wanna say he was better at hitting singles than I'd agree but to me the Ichiro Raines discussion only comes out in favor for Ichiro if you factor in his Japanese stats is that what your doing?
This is just for me, but being a good hitter has to do with that player and his skills/talent/ability. Productive hitters are usually good hitters, but the productivity comes from the result of hitting-- and has everything to do with where in the lineup you bat, who bats in front of you, who bats behind you, what era you played in, what league you played in... a bunch of factors the player really can't control. For example, Don Mattingly/Gwynn/Raines/Grace were all better hitters than McGwire/Canseco/Fielder/Joe Carter... but I would guess most of them weren't as "productive" as the home run hitters. There's been some great hitters that won't get the recognition they deserve because for some reason, the longevity wasn't there.
Ok I see your argument then it's just that we see things a little differently is all. I'll give you this Ichiro was a great hitter and hit a according to his skill set very well at a hall of fame level.
I did dig up my Ichiro unopened, although I think I have a BBM factory set somewhere (so I know I have at least one Ichiro). BBM and Tomy I.D. and I forget what the other packs were, something like a regional Calbee from 1994 that he was in.
Ok I see your argument then it's just that we see things a little differently is all. I'll give you this Ichiro was a great hitter and hit a according to his skill set very well at a hall of fame level.
Yeah, he had longevity too (still got 16 years in the MLB). Hitting the milestones he has, and will, there's not much of an argument against the Hall. I think anyone with 3000 hits should get into the hall... that's just impressive no matter how you do it.
Yeah, got the boxes in one lot and the loose packs in another, from the same guy, almost 7 years ago. I think Matsui is in those sets too, but I wouldn't know any of the other players... definitely be fishing for the Ichiro.
Well does Japanese baseball qualify as "major league" caliber or not? And by whose standards?
Obviously the Negro Leagues DO count as "major leagues", otherwise they wouldn't have been inducted into the HOF. Only trouble is stats weren't kept nearly as well. I think there are some researchers/statisticians/historians and such that are trying to correct that?
Well does Japanese baseball qualify as "major league" caliber or not? And by whose standards?
No, it doesn't qualify by anyone's standards. It's at least a notch below. However, if a player is playing in Japan, it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't good enough to play in MLB.
Obviously the Negro Leagues DO count as "major leagues", otherwise they wouldn't have been inducted into the HOF. Only trouble is stats weren't kept nearly as well. I think there are some researchers/statisticians/historians and such that are trying to correct that?
The HOF is basically a generic baseball HOF. It has no direct affiliation with MLB. The reason that most HOFers played in MLB is just because MLB has had the best baseball players for quite a few decades now. Back in the Negro League days, the best players weren't all in MLB.
Comments
Ichiro was/is an incredible hitter.
Unfortunately, they played in very different leagues. Oh well. We can speculate and wish.
I wish Iverson had a good work ethic and played baseball. He would have been a great leadoff hitter with a 20+ year career threatening many stats. Too bad he chose a different path.
This is interesting it looks like a former MLB player broke IchIro's Japanese single season hit record.
Wiki link
On December 4, 2009, Murton was released by the Rockies,[10] who sold his contract to the Hanshin Tigers of Japan's Nippon Professional Baseball.[11] In Murton's rookie season with the Hanshin Tigers he became only the fourth player in Nippon Professional Baseball history to have a 200-hit season.[12] On October 5, 2010, Murton broke the single season hit record, set by Ichiro Suzuki (in 130 games), hitting his 211th hit (through 142 games).[13] He successfully finished his first regular season in Japan with 214 hits (in 144 games), .349 batting average, 17 home runs and 91 RBIs. Murton's single season hits record was eclipsed in 2015 by Shogo Akiyama of the Seibu Lions, who recorded 216 hits in 143 games.[14]
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Liver lol I said he was a great hitter but it's funny how people are just excepting those Japan league stats without looking at the huge difference in them!?!? Ichiro went from Ted Williams to Rob Carew when he crossed leagues. That's not a slight it's just a fact. He didn't hit for any power here but he did in Japan, he got on base a whole look
Less and his average even dropped and you can even say he played in MLB right at the start of his prime years. I just have an issue with people not excepting that the Japanese league is a notch maybe two below MLB competition. If you feel the need to bring up the WBC to feel good then ask yourself this and be honest if we fielded a team of Machado, Bogarts, Rizzo, Harper, Trout, Kershaw on the mound etc etc when our best are at there best not during spring training do you really think we lose? If you do then I suggest like someone else wrote here... Watch more baseball.
They made right by Stargell in 1979 when he got to share the MVP for no good reason.
Pete Rose is half the player Ichiro is. I don't think Rose would have had that many hits if he played in this era. Haul to Ichiro the new "Hit King"
How many World Series rings does IchIro have? Rose has 3 or 4.
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Pete Rose is half the player Ichiro is. I don't think Rose would have had that many hits if he played in this era. Haul to Ichiro the new "Hit King"
How many World Series rings does IchIro have? Rose has 3 or 4.
As many as Ted Williams..
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
49ers guy, not only are you playing the race card in a situation in which it doesn't apply, you can't even spell the player's name right. It's IchIro. Are we really supposed to take you seriously??
With all that being said, this is the wrong forum for this thread.
I have to agree why play the race card? Isn't it more likely that he never broke the MLB hit record due to the fact he was born in Japan. Why do people always look to blame or make excuses. Sometimes it can be as simple as he was born in Japan.
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Pete Rose is half the player Ichiro is. I don't think Rose would have had that many hits if he played in this era. Haul to Ichiro the new "Hit King"
How many World Series rings does IchIro have? Rose has 3 or 4.
As many as Ted Williams..
This has nothing to do with Ted or any of the other greats that never won a ring.The poster above said Rose wasn't half the player Ichiro was.
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Pete Rose is half the player Ichiro is. I don't think Rose would have had that many hits if he played in this era. Haul to Ichiro the new "Hit King"
How many World Series rings does IchIro have? Rose has 3 or 4.
As many as Ted Williams..
This has nothing to do with Ted or any of the other greats that never won a ring.The poster above said Rose wasn't half the player Ichiro was.
I know what he said, but if rings are an indication of a single players worth than Ted Williams and Barry Bonds were scrubs.
Also, no one here has brought up Ichiro's speed. He has 504 stolen bases in the MLB alone, 703 when you include Japan, making him 11th all time. If Ichiro played his entire career in the US, he probably would've had even more! We have longer seasons and he really didn't steal much in Japan (he had 11 stolen bases in Japan in 1998, 12 in 1999, but 56 in the US in 2001). It's not far fetched to believe he could've had 800+ SBs.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I never said ichiro was chop
Liver lol I said he was a great hitter but it's funny how people are just excepting those Japan league stats without looking at the huge difference in them!?!? Ichiro went from Ted Williams to Rob Carew when he crossed leagues. That's not a slight it's just a fact. He didn't hit for any power here but he did in Japan, he got on base a whole look
Less and his average even dropped and you can even say he played in MLB right at the start of his prime years. I just have an issue with people not excepting that the Japanese league is a notch maybe two below MLB competition. If you feel the need to bring up the WBC to feel good then ask yourself this and be honest if we fielded a team of Machado, Bogarts, Rizzo, Harper, Trout, Kershaw on the mound etc etc when our best are at there best not during spring training do you really think we lose? If you do then I suggest like someone else wrote here... Watch more baseball.
Yeah, I know but you said he was a one-dimensional hitter and could nothing else other than slap singles. I wasn't even considering his Japan stats, only looking at MLB stats... and he has a career slugging of .405 compared to Pete Rose's .409. Ichiro has 113 HRs compared to Pete Rose's 160 (and played in the MLB 8 years longer than Ichiro has). If that was one dimensional, then so was Pete Rose. I in no way have ever hinted that Ichiro is a better ball player, but most of that has to do with defense and the intangibles... a foreigner who can't even speak the language very well is never going to be a clubhouse leader or the driving force behind their team like Charlie Hustle. Even if you didn't like Pete, you wanted him on your team for that exact reason.
Comparing bonds to ichiro as hitters. Utterly ridiculous. Ichiro isn't in the same universe as bonds.
Hitter, not batter or offensive player. Hitter... going up to the plate, hitting the ball and getting on base. That's all. Barry was the best by far, and I qualified it as "that I've seen". He was the best swinger ever too, if he swung at it, he made contact with it. I'm sure Ty Cobb was awesome but I can't compare eras that far apart, too much has changed. Ichiro is right there with Tony Gwynn, Pete Rose, and others.
He's not on the same level as Tim Raines, either, for that matter.
Ichiro (27-42)
AVG .314
OBP .357
SLG .405
SB% 81%
WAR/162 4.3
K Rate 9.3%
SB 504
Raines (27-42)
AVG .287
OBP .378
SLG .408
SB% 80%
WAR/162 4.2
K Rate 8.6%
SB 347
They seem virtually identical. The only difference is Ichiro was able to sustain his career longer and walked less.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Rose from age 27-42: .309/.383/.418, 3,091 hits.
Good article:
http://sportsworld.nbcsports.c...se-ichiro-suzuki-hits/
LaJoie Portrait 3+, Cy Young Bare Hand 3+
Ty Cobb Bat Off 4+, ANY Red & Green Portrait
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I didn't realize Raine's didn't play MLB till age 27, LOL..
Okay, how about career totals then?
Ichiro vs. Tim Raines
BA .325 | .296
OBP .375 | .385
SLG .438 | .425
SB 703 | 1,037
HR 231 | 187
MVP 4 | 0
All Star 17 | 7
Gold Glove 17 | 0
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
He made far more outs than he should have had he had better control of the zone. instead, he had to try to get halfway down the first base line, while swinging, and didn't allow the ball to get deep into the zone like the vast majority of elite hitters.
Myth busted.
"Ichiro also wants to debunk another myth. Those fast-moving legs of his? They’re not already running toward first as he swings. “It might look that way because my weight shift from the back to the front might be bigger than other players,” Ichiro says. “Because of the weight shift, my first step might be faster than others, but you shouldn’t ever run before you swing the bat. I’ve gotten a lot of questions about that, but it’s not what I do.”"
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You might want to recheck those numbers..
Professional totals for both players at all levels.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
You might want to recheck those numbers..
Professional totals for both players at all levels.
LOL, OK.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You might want to recheck those numbers..
Professional totals for both players at all levels.
LOL, OK.
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have included Tim Raines minor league stats, but the comparison just wasn't even close without the leg up.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You may as well since you've already added Ichiro's minor league numbers, too..
Actually, oops. I forgot to add his two years of stats from playing in the Japanese farm system. Thanks for the reminder.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
JHS, what a joke argument. Good grief.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Baz, a huge part of hitting is identifying which balls to swing at. I have never heard anyone try to separate out the actual act of making contact with the ball and walking. They are both parts of "hitting" ichiro was very limited as a "hitter" because he didn't have good control of the strike zone. He swung at far too many balls outside of the zone. He made far more outs than he should have had he had better control of the zone. instead, he had to try to get halfway down the first base line, while swinging, and didn't allow the ball to get deep into the zone like the vast majority of elite hitters.
I'm not separating making contact with the ball and walking, I'm ignoring walks because the discussion is about hitting not OBP... OBP isn't a hitting stat, hitting is one component of that stat. Wasn't even sure why you brought OBP into it? Maybe it's a terminology thing, because batting is not hitting... batting is taking a turn at bat, hitting is putting the ball in play safely. So identifying balls and strikes is an important part of an at-bat, but if you hit the ball in play and get on base it really is irrelevant. It's not like Ichiro struck out a lot, he never struck out more than 86 times and only had 4 years where he struck out over 70 times. He was and is one of the best HITTERS to ever play the game...
-- Was the 2nd fastest to 2000 hits
-- Most hits in a season EVER
-- Only the 2nd player to hold two positions in top 10 for most hits in a season (and only player since 1930 to crack it-- Boggs was 11th before Ichiro)
-- Will be only the 30th player to get 3000 hits
-- Tied (w/ Rose) for only player to have 10 200+ hit seasons (and he did them all in his first 10 years of playing, which was during the steroid era)
To achieve all that when he didn't start playing in the MLB until he was 27? No one is going to convince me he wasn't one of the best hitters ever. As far as power and intangibles... no, he was lacking and that's why he'll never be the player Bonds, Rose, and others were. But he was a great player who will be a first ballot HOFer when you consider he's also a 10-time All-Star, won 10 Gold Gloves, was ROY and MVP in his first year in the MLB, and received MVP votes in 9 of his 10 first years.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Can you name one Japanese star that came to MLB and performed at a higher level then they did in Japan? I'd take just one and going by the numbers there best shot would be ichiro. His 522 Slugging, 350ish average and 400 plus totals are Japanese totals he had his prime to come close to that in MLB and he didn't come close. Yet we have plenty of borderline MLB regulars that wash out here go there and resurrect themselves as stars and challenge and break records. Ichiro was a great hitter he routinely lead the league in plate apperences and hits a lot of that had to do with the fact that he didn't walk. I have a hard time believing you actually believe the Japanese league is the same level as MLB. I think you just like arguing.
Think about when it comes to Rose and Ichiro. For the first 7 years of his career Rose was taking swings against guys like Koufax, Gibson, Drysdale, Maraichel, Carlton, Seaver etc while Ichiro was hitting in the Japanese league. The late sixties where a nightmare for ALL MLB hitters. I just can't see the first seven years of Ichiro's career as comparable.
Raines was the better hitter unless we are focusing on singles or batting average, both of which can be misleading if focused on to the exclusion of other, more significant statistics. I never meant to imply that I don't consider Ichiro a terrific hitter (I do, even though he hasn't had a good season and been a below average player since 2010), but he still wasn't as good an overall hitter as Tim Raines, who is arguably as underrated as Ichiro is overrated, though Raines has finally gotten some of the consideration he deserves in recent years and should already be in the HOF.
Yeah, I didn't think you were dogging Ichiro... just wasn't sure how serious you were. I love me some Tim Raines and I do think he deserves to be in the HOF, but that is largely due to his ranking as one of the best leadoff hitters ever (more than just his numbers). But I would never say Raines was a better hitter than Ichiro... maybe a slightly more productive hitter, but not a better hitter. Raines only had 83 more doubles, 22 more triples 57 more HRs... and that was playing 7 more seasons than Ichiro has, which also included Raines' prime. But when you consider Ichiro grounded into 60 less double plays and will have 400 more hits than Raines, that does make up some of that difference in production. But Raines also tailed off greatly at the end of his career... probably more so than Ichiro... his last 8-9 years, he was a shell of himself and his speed (and defense) was almost completely gone.
I would also argue Mark Grace was a better hitter than Raines, but being a non-slugging first baseman and having his career cut short by an alcohol problem, I understand he will never (and should never) be a HOFer like Raines.
I'm having trouble understanding the difference between being a more productive hitter but not being better? If you wanna say Ichiro was a better contact hitter than Raines well maybe but neither of them struck out much. If you wanna say he was better at hitting singles than I'd agree but to me the Ichiro Raines discussion only comes out in favor for Ichiro if you factor in his Japanese stats is that what your doing?
Yes, as a singles hitter was what I meant. Ichiro hits for a high average, no debating that, and his hit totals speak for themselves. But he has very little extra base power and his career OBP and OPS+ are pretty unimpressive for a guy who compiled the batting averages he did over the years. Many of his hits were also infield singles, too~nothing wrong with those and when he was a prolific base stealer some of those would equate to doubles, too, but I would classify Raiines as the more productive hitter of the two over the course of their MLB careers.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
EDIT: my bad, I posted this after the first page... didn't realize there was much more. Rookie mistake!
I'm having trouble understanding the difference between being a more productive hitter but not being better? If you wanna say Ichiro was a better contact hitter than Raines well maybe but neither of them struck out much. If you wanna say he was better at hitting singles than I'd agree but to me the Ichiro Raines discussion only comes out in favor for Ichiro if you factor in his Japanese stats is that what your doing?
This is just for me, but being a good hitter has to do with that player and his skills/talent/ability. Productive hitters are usually good hitters, but the productivity comes from the result of hitting-- and has everything to do with where in the lineup you bat, who bats in front of you, who bats behind you, what era you played in, what league you played in... a bunch of factors the player really can't control. For example, Don Mattingly/Gwynn/Raines/Grace were all better hitters than McGwire/Canseco/Fielder/Joe Carter... but I would guess most of them weren't as "productive" as the home run hitters. There's been some great hitters that won't get the recognition they deserve because for some reason, the longevity wasn't there.
Ok I see your argument then it's just that we see things a little differently is all. I'll give you this Ichiro was a great hitter and hit a according to his skill set very well at a hall of fame level.
Yeah, he had longevity too (still got 16 years in the MLB). Hitting the milestones he has, and will, there's not much of an argument against the Hall. I think anyone with 3000 hits should get into the hall... that's just impressive no matter how you do it.
Obviously the Negro Leagues DO count as "major leagues", otherwise they wouldn't have been inducted into the HOF. Only trouble is stats weren't kept nearly as well. I think there are some researchers/statisticians/historians and such that are trying to correct that?
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
Well does Japanese baseball qualify as "major league" caliber or not? And by whose standards?
No, it doesn't qualify by anyone's standards. It's at least a notch below. However, if a player is playing in Japan, it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't good enough to play in MLB.
Obviously the Negro Leagues DO count as "major leagues", otherwise they wouldn't have been inducted into the HOF. Only trouble is stats weren't kept nearly as well. I think there are some researchers/statisticians/historians and such that are trying to correct that?
The HOF is basically a generic baseball HOF. It has no direct affiliation with MLB. The reason that most HOFers played in MLB is just because MLB has had the best baseball players for quite a few decades now. Back in the Negro League days, the best players weren't all in MLB.