Originally posted by: Estil Well does Japanese baseball qualify as "major league" caliber or not? And by whose standards?
No, it doesn't qualify by anyone's standards. It's at least a notch below. However, if a player is playing in Japan, it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't good enough to play in MLB.
The HOF is basically a generic baseball HOF. It has no direct affiliation with MLB. The reason that most HOFers played in MLB is just because MLB has had the best baseball players for quite a few decades now. Back in the Negro League days, the best players weren't all in MLB.
Please don't speak for me. It qualifies by my standards.
Well does Japanese baseball qualify as "major league" caliber or not? And by whose standards?
No, it doesn't qualify by anyone's standards. It's at least a notch below. However, if a player is playing in Japan, it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't good enough to play in MLB.
The HOF is basically a generic baseball HOF. It has no direct affiliation with MLB. The reason that most HOFers played in MLB is just because MLB has had the best baseball players for quite a few decades now. Back in the Negro League days, the best players weren't all in MLB.
Please don't speak for me. It qualifies by my standards.
OK, you're the first! I don't suppose you care to expand on that, do you? Can you name some players from Japan that played better (or the same) when they moved to MLB?
Well does Japanese baseball qualify as "major league" caliber or not? And by whose standards?
No, it doesn't qualify by anyone's standards. It's at least a notch below. However, if a player is playing in Japan, it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't good enough to play in MLB.
The HOF is basically a generic baseball HOF. It has no direct affiliation with MLB. The reason that most HOFers played in MLB is just because MLB has had the best baseball players for quite a few decades now. Back in the Negro League days, the best players weren't all in MLB.
Please don't speak for me. It qualifies by my standards.
Then you either don't understand the topic, or you know nothing about baseball. That league is equivalent to American triple A. I can't believe we're even discussing this. There are some players over there who could play MLB, but the majority could not.
If you combine his MLB & JPPL stats, Tuffy Rhodes jacked 477 tater tots. I'm just waiting for someone to come along and say he should be considered a more prolific home run hitter than the likes of Stan Musial, Willie Stargell and Carl Yastrzemski, then the drug testing can proceed in earnest.
If you combine his MLB & JPPL stats, Tuffy Rhodes jacked 477 tater tots. I'm just waiting for someone to come along and say he should be considered a more prolific home run hitter than the likes of Stan Musial, Willie Stargell and Carl Yastrzemski, then the drug testing can proceed in earnest.
Tuffy did jack 3 homers in an Opening Day game for the Cubs... at that point, he was on pace to jack 486 homers that year!
The level of play in the Japanese league is just not as good as mlb. Stats are not equal. For that matter, the negro league was not as High a level as mlb. Both leagues had some great players, but the rosters lacked the depth mlb teams enjoy. Seems like a pretty simple concept to grasp. But, I guess there are a few...
The level of play in the Japanese league is just not as good as mlb. Stats are not equal. For that matter, the negro league was not as High a level as mlb. Both leagues had some great players, but the rosters lacked the depth mlb teams enjoy. Seems like a pretty simple concept to grasp. But, I guess there are a few...
The level of play may not be as good in the Japanese league but...
Ichiro proved his ability in MLB by averaging 225 hits per year for his first 10 years. I don't think there is any doubt that if Ichiro had been in MLB seven years earlier he would of accumulated more hits than he did in the Japanese league during that time frame. Even if his average was lower he would of had 200+ more at bats a season to compensate.
I don't think there is any doubt that if Ichiro had been in MLB seven years earlier he would of accumulated more hits than he did in the Japanese league during that time frame. Even if his average was lower he would of had 200+ more at bats a season to compensate.
I agree with what you're saying, but it wouldn't be 200+ more ABs per season. MLB has 32 more games per season than the Japan league, so it comes out to ~130 more ABs per season.
I don't think there is any doubt that if Ichiro had been in MLB seven years earlier he would of accumulated more hits than he did in the Japanese league during that time frame.
That's a might large leap of speculation on your part right there. There is no way to know when he'd have established himself as a starting player in MLB and how many hits he would have accumulated had he been in the U.S. during that time. Because the level of play in Japan is lower than MLB, his hit total over those years may very well had been lower, too. There is no way to know what might have been.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
That's a might large leap of speculation on your part right there. There is no way to know when he'd have established himself as a starting player in MLB and how many hits he would have accumulated had he been in the U.S. during that time. Because the level of play in Japan is lower than MLB, his hit total over those years may very well had been lower, too. There is no way to know what might have been.
I'd call it a very small leap. He hit .359 from age 20-26 in Japan (177 hits per year), and then .333 from age 27-33 in MLB (227 hits per year). But, we'll never know for sure.
I will continue to pledge my support to Sven Nordboblsled, the All-Time Scandinavian League Hit King, who took out thousands of innocent fans with well-placed frozen projectiles, as well as a few hundred pitchers and snowshoed infielders positioned in the world renowned Abominable Blizzard Shift.
Originally posted by: travis t I will continue to pledge my support to Sven Nordboblsled, the All-Time Scandinavian League Hit King, who took out thousands of innocent fans with well-placed frozen projectiles, as well as a few hundred pitchers and snowshoed infielders positioned in the world renowned Abominable Blizzard Shift.
crickets
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I will continue to pledge my support to Sven Nordboblsled, the All-Time Scandinavian League Hit King, who took out thousands of innocent fans with well-placed frozen projectiles, as well as a few hundred pitchers and snowshoed infielders positioned in the world renowned Abominable Blizzard Shift.
crickets
No. Though Sven was immensely talented, he was not allowed to participate in British Club Leagues during the off-season.
Originally posted by: grote15 That's a might large leap of speculation on your part right there. There is no way to know when he'd have established himself as a starting player in MLB and how many hits he would have accumulated had he been in the U.S. during that time. Because the level of play in Japan is lower than MLB, his hit total over those years may very well had been lower, too. There is no way to know what might have been.
I'd call it a very small leap. He hit .359 from age 20-26 in Japan (177 hits per year), and then .333 from age 27-33 in MLB (227 hits per year). But, we'll never know for sure.
Can you name any players that hit .359 from age 20-26 at the big league level?
That's a might large leap of speculation on your part right there. There is no way to know when he'd have established himself as a starting player in MLB and how many hits he would have accumulated had he been in the U.S. during that time. Because the level of play in Japan is lower than MLB, his hit total over those years may very well had been lower, too. There is no way to know what might have been.
I'd call it a very small leap. He hit .359 from age 20-26 in Japan (177 hits per year), and then .333 from age 27-33 in MLB (227 hits per year). But, we'll never know for sure.
Can you name any players that hit .359 from age 20-26 at the big league level?
Since you're asking that question, you're probably missing my point. Do I think Ichiro would have hit .359 from age 20-26 if he played in MLB those years? Heck no. Quite a bit less, probably. The point is that he could have hit far less than .359 and he'd likely STILL have more hits in MLB than Pete Rose. The 32 extra games in MLB (compared to Japan) would allow him to have more hits even with a lower batting average. That's why he had more hits per season in MLB than in Japan even though his average dropped by about 26 points.
Pete Rose hit .303 and has 4256 hits.
Ty Cobb hit .366 and has 4191 hits.
Who has more hits? Rose. Who is the better hitter? Cobb - by far (IMO).
Having more hits than Rose wouldn't necessarily make Ichiro better than Rose, just like Rose having more hits than Cobb doesn't make him better than Cobb.
To answer your original question, Chuck Klein, Cobb, Joe Jackson, and Nap Lajoie (and a couple of players players from the 1800s) hit .359+ from age 20-26.
My problem with this argument is that we are just assuming that Ichiro would start for a MLB team right away at the age of 20. No one knows if he might have been able to start but blocked by a good ball player. He could have had a few seasons in double or triple a before coming up. It's not like he would have hit for any power at 20 he couldn't do that in his late twenties and early thirties. It's very possible MLB pitching could have taken him some time to adjust to. Cobb came up at an early age and had a little trouble I think it's completely plausible to think Ichiro might have as well. Could he have collected those hits in MLB from 20-26 I'd say yes but it's also possible that he may have taken time to adjust and gotten going so to speak a little later like 23-24. Fact is all of Roses hits are at the MLB level and like I said he hit during two era's of the game when when offense across the board was way down.
Originally posted by: garnettstyle I wonder if some people think Warren Moon is the all time passing leader in football?
Of course he is. When you add up college, CFL, NFl he is at 73,830 its a shame Peyton decided not to give it 1 more go this year. He could have broke the record. Instead he will have to settle for 2nd.
A few other career stats you might not be aware of - here are the true totals:
Herschel Walker Rushing Yards NFL 4859 - USFL 5562 - College - 5259- 15,680 Total
Kurt Warner Td's AFL - 183 NFL - 208 TD's - 391 Total
As far as Rose and Ichiro forget them both. We have to look at Ty Cobb in his barnstorming days. Im sure he played against some really good players.
He was in Cuba, California and yes even Japan. We need to get hold of those box scores so we can add to his tally of hits.
"I think the guy must be practicing voodoo or something. Check out his eyes. Rico's crazier than a peach orchard sow." -- Whitey Herzog, Spring Training 1973
126 hits is another season for Ichiro maybe parts of another one seeing how he's not a regular anymore. Saying there's a professional baseball hits record is just a way for people to get a rise outta baseball purists and look....it's working lol!! Collecting all those hits in Japan is impressive but it's not and never will be MLB caliber play day in and day out.
It's a compelling argument regardless. Ichiro is a special case in a couple regards... (a) he had no choice, he was basically colluded against and kept out of the MLB for longer than he should have and (b) the HOF isn't exclusive to the MLB and in reality, "Hit King" really is a record exclusive to the MLB. Just depends on what perspective you choose to take. No, Japanese baseball is not equivalent to the MLB... but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have succeeded here during those years as well. Regardless, pretty damn impressive... I'm glad I got to see him play.
Originally posted by: baz518 It's a compelling argument regardless. Ichiro is a special case in a couple regards... (a) he had no choice, he was basically colluded against and kept out of the MLB for longer than he should have and (b) the HOF isn't exclusive to the MLB and in reality, "Hit King" really is a record exclusive to the MLB. Just depends on what perspective you choose to take. No, Japanese baseball is not equivalent to the MLB... but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have succeeded here during those years as well. Regardless, pretty damn impressive... I'm glad I got to see him play.
He wasn't colluded against, he was born in Japan
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Lol. He was definitely born in Japan, but short of his parents moving to the US before he was of college age... he really had no path to make it to the MLB (due mainly to the owners of the Japanese teams). Even after Japan made their players "available", the posting process (and fees) MLB teams were required to follow were basically collusion in itself.
Originally posted by: TheMick6 Fact is all of Roses hits are at the MLB level and like I said he hit during two era's of the game when when offense across the board was way down.
The difference isn't that big.
The overall NL batting average in Rose's era was .254. The overall AL batting average in Ichiro's era was .263.
That would be 9 hits difference for every 1,000 ABs, so Rose "lost" about 126 hits.
I think the increase in offense came from steroids, not weaker pitching. If anything, the pitching (and competition in general) was significantly tougher when Ichiro played compared to Rose.
Also, in regards to whether Ichiro would have started in the MLB immediately. It seems like most of Ichiro's critics argue that Japanese baseball is a high AAA caliber league. Well, Ichiro had a .385/.445/.549 slash line at the age of 20 in Japan (with 29 stolen bases). If Japan is AAA caliber, then it's reasonable to estimate a similar slash line in AAA. I have never heard of a minor league player staying in the minor leagues with that sort of production. It would be historic.
Why do mlb teams have to honor the Japanese league rules when it comes to signing players? Is there any reason a Japanese player couldn't get the correct paperwork, get a work visa and just fly over here and declare himself a free agent? Is there some world court that would spank them? Or is it just a gentlemen's agreement between leagues? Honest question.
We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see him hitting 350 or even 310 as a major league rookie at 20. How's he hit 380 in Japan at that age and have 303 years in MLB when he should be in his prime. I've never taken the stance that he wouldn't have gotten the hits if given the shot from 20-26 in MLB I just think you can only speculate if he would you cant say he did it in Japan so he'd have done it here. If you think the comparison now is better than a steady dose of Koufax, Drysdale, Gibson, Marachal, Seaver, Ryan, Carlton, Jenkins etc etc than once again we will just have to disagree. I'm assuming that you think the new fad of bringing in a pitcher for the 6,7,8 and ninth makes it harder to hit. I on the other hand would rather have those other guys finish the game instead of some bum arm that couldn't start trying to get outs in the sixth or seventh.
Originally posted by: TheMick6 We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see him hitting 350 or even 310 as a major league rookie at 20. How's he hit 380 in Japan at that age and have 303 years in MLB when he should be in his prime. I've never taken the stance that he wouldn't have gotten the hits if given the shot from 20-26 in MLB I just think you can only speculate if he would you cant say he did it in Japan so he'd have done it here. If you think the comparison now is better than a steady dose of Koufax, Drysdale, Gibson, Marachal, Seaver, Ryan, Carlton, Jenkins etc etc than once again we will just have to disagree. I'm assuming that you think the new fad of bringing in a pitcher for the 6,7,8 and ninth makes it harder to hit. I on the other hand would rather have those other guys finish the game instead of some bum arm that couldn't start trying to get outs in the sixth or seventh.
I guess we will have to disagree.
When Pete Rose played Cuban players, Japanese players and Korean players were still banned from the MLB. Steroids weren't an issue. They still hadn't thought of properly utilizing the infield shift, relief pitchers or SABR metrics. I think baseball in the mid-1990's through the first decade of the 2000's was some of the most competitive baseball in history.
It's fun to speculate what might've happened. Pete Rose might've gotten 4,500 hits if he had modern conditioning, or he might not have reached even 3,000, who knows.
I respect all opinions when there based in fact. FACT, modern players are better conditioned but I usually rate Ball players relative to there era. In doing this I know it's impossible to compare Ruth and Bonds I just usually say best hitters or ball players of there respective era. I see it as how would Ruth do with modern conditioning and how would bonds do with no GNC or golds gym on every corner. Only fair IMO. As far as the shift in regarded to Rose cmon man Rose was exactly the type no shif is or would be used on. He would have bunted or did all he could to beat that shift. I mean who shifts on Ichiro? No one, similar hitter to Rose. The shift isn't ruining hitters modern hitters refuse to adjust to the shift. If I hear a modern hitter say I don't wanna mess my swing up by going to left or right one more time.......
I don't see him hitting 350 or even 310 as a major league rookie at 20. How's he hit 380 in Japan at that age and have 303 years in MLB when he should be in his prime.
.303 years in his prime? He had only one such season in MLB through age 36. He hit .303 at age 31, which is well past prime. He also set career highs with 15 HRs and 12 triples that year. Even if that were an off year, having an off year is normal, even for HOFers. He also hit .372, .352, .351, and .350.
He's STILL fast to 1B...imagine how fast he was at age 20. He was the first player in Japan to have 200 hits in a season.
I'm not saying he couldn't have done it I'm Saying it's not a definite just because he produced in that league. It's a lower caliber league, more days off, leads to fresher legs, not as much wear etc etc for every positive you give I could give a but this or but that. Think we just have differnt opinions on that other league is all. I see 31 as a guys prime still maybe the back end of it but most big leaguers are still having quality years at that age, yes 303 is a good year lol no need to go there.
On December 4, 2009, Murton was released by the Rockies,[10] who sold his contract to the Hanshin Tigers of Japan's Nippon Professional Baseball.[11] In Murton's rookie season with the Hanshin Tigers he became only the fourth player in Nippon Professional Baseball history to have a 200-hit season.[12] On October 5, 2010, Murton broke the single season hit record, set by Ichiro Suzuki (in 130 games), hitting his 211th hit (through 142 games).[13] He successfully finished his first regular season in Japan with 214 hits (in 144 games), .349 batting average, 17 home runs and 91 RBIs. Murton's single season hits record was eclipsed in 2015 by Shogo Akiyama of the Seibu Lions, who recorded 216 hits in 143 games.[14]
We need to stop pulling up IchIro's Japenese stats, the above plus dozens of other average to above average MLB players like Tuffy Rhodes, etc... that go to Japan and become stars has proven it's a weaker league.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Comments
Well does Japanese baseball qualify as "major league" caliber or not? And by whose standards?
No, it doesn't qualify by anyone's standards. It's at least a notch below. However, if a player is playing in Japan, it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't good enough to play in MLB.
The HOF is basically a generic baseball HOF. It has no direct affiliation with MLB. The reason that most HOFers played in MLB is just because MLB has had the best baseball players for quite a few decades now. Back in the Negro League days, the best players weren't all in MLB.
Please don't speak for me. It qualifies by my standards.
Well does Japanese baseball qualify as "major league" caliber or not? And by whose standards?
No, it doesn't qualify by anyone's standards. It's at least a notch below. However, if a player is playing in Japan, it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't good enough to play in MLB.
The HOF is basically a generic baseball HOF. It has no direct affiliation with MLB. The reason that most HOFers played in MLB is just because MLB has had the best baseball players for quite a few decades now. Back in the Negro League days, the best players weren't all in MLB.
Please don't speak for me. It qualifies by my standards.
OK, you're the first! I don't suppose you care to expand on that, do you? Can you name some players from Japan that played better (or the same) when they moved to MLB?
Well does Japanese baseball qualify as "major league" caliber or not? And by whose standards?
No, it doesn't qualify by anyone's standards. It's at least a notch below. However, if a player is playing in Japan, it doesn't necessarily mean he isn't good enough to play in MLB.
The HOF is basically a generic baseball HOF. It has no direct affiliation with MLB. The reason that most HOFers played in MLB is just because MLB has had the best baseball players for quite a few decades now. Back in the Negro League days, the best players weren't all in MLB.
Please don't speak for me. It qualifies by my standards.
Then you either don't understand the topic, or you know nothing about baseball. That league is equivalent to American triple A. I can't believe we're even discussing this. There are some players over there who could play MLB, but the majority could not.
If you combine his MLB & JPPL stats, Tuffy Rhodes jacked 477 tater tots. I'm just waiting for someone to come along and say he should be considered a more prolific home run hitter than the likes of Stan Musial, Willie Stargell and Carl Yastrzemski, then the drug testing can proceed in earnest.
Tuffy did jack 3 homers in an Opening Day game for the Cubs... at that point, he was on pace to jack 486 homers that year!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The level of play in the Japanese league is just not as good as mlb. Stats are not equal. For that matter, the negro league was not as High a level as mlb. Both leagues had some great players, but the rosters lacked the depth mlb teams enjoy. Seems like a pretty simple concept to grasp. But, I guess there are a few...
+1
https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/pdub1819/othersets/6204
Ichiro proved his ability in MLB by averaging 225 hits per year for his first 10 years. I don't think there is any doubt that if Ichiro had been in MLB seven years earlier he would of accumulated more hits than he did in the Japanese league during that time frame. Even if his average was lower he would of had 200+ more at bats a season to compensate.
I don't think there is any doubt that if Ichiro had been in MLB seven years earlier he would of accumulated more hits than he did in the Japanese league during that time frame. Even if his average was lower he would of had 200+ more at bats a season to compensate.
I agree with what you're saying, but it wouldn't be 200+ more ABs per season. MLB has 32 more games per season than the Japan league, so it comes out to ~130 more ABs per season.
That's a might large leap of speculation on your part right there. There is no way to know when he'd have established himself as a starting player in MLB and how many hits he would have accumulated had he been in the U.S. during that time. Because the level of play in Japan is lower than MLB, his hit total over those years may very well had been lower, too. There is no way to know what might have been.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
That's a might large leap of speculation on your part right there. There is no way to know when he'd have established himself as a starting player in MLB and how many hits he would have accumulated had he been in the U.S. during that time. Because the level of play in Japan is lower than MLB, his hit total over those years may very well had been lower, too. There is no way to know what might have been.
I'd call it a very small leap. He hit .359 from age 20-26 in Japan (177 hits per year), and then .333 from age 27-33 in MLB (227 hits per year). But, we'll never know for sure.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
I will continue to pledge my support to Sven Nordboblsled, the All-Time Scandinavian League Hit King, who took out thousands of innocent fans with well-placed frozen projectiles, as well as a few hundred pitchers and snowshoed infielders positioned in the world renowned Abominable Blizzard Shift.
crickets
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I will continue to pledge my support to Sven Nordboblsled, the All-Time Scandinavian League Hit King, who took out thousands of innocent fans with well-placed frozen projectiles, as well as a few hundred pitchers and snowshoed infielders positioned in the world renowned Abominable Blizzard Shift.
crickets
No. Though Sven was immensely talented, he was not allowed to participate in British Club Leagues during the off-season.
That's a might large leap of speculation on your part right there. There is no way to know when he'd have established himself as a starting player in MLB and how many hits he would have accumulated had he been in the U.S. during that time. Because the level of play in Japan is lower than MLB, his hit total over those years may very well had been lower, too. There is no way to know what might have been.
I'd call it a very small leap. He hit .359 from age 20-26 in Japan (177 hits per year), and then .333 from age 27-33 in MLB (227 hits per year). But, we'll never know for sure.
Can you name any players that hit .359 from age 20-26 at the big league level?
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
That's a might large leap of speculation on your part right there. There is no way to know when he'd have established himself as a starting player in MLB and how many hits he would have accumulated had he been in the U.S. during that time. Because the level of play in Japan is lower than MLB, his hit total over those years may very well had been lower, too. There is no way to know what might have been.
I'd call it a very small leap. He hit .359 from age 20-26 in Japan (177 hits per year), and then .333 from age 27-33 in MLB (227 hits per year). But, we'll never know for sure.
Can you name any players that hit .359 from age 20-26 at the big league level?
Since you're asking that question, you're probably missing my point. Do I think Ichiro would have hit .359 from age 20-26 if he played in MLB those years? Heck no. Quite a bit less, probably. The point is that he could have hit far less than .359 and he'd likely STILL have more hits in MLB than Pete Rose. The 32 extra games in MLB (compared to Japan) would allow him to have more hits even with a lower batting average. That's why he had more hits per season in MLB than in Japan even though his average dropped by about 26 points.
Pete Rose hit .303 and has 4256 hits.
Ty Cobb hit .366 and has 4191 hits.
Who has more hits? Rose. Who is the better hitter? Cobb - by far (IMO).
Having more hits than Rose wouldn't necessarily make Ichiro better than Rose, just like Rose having more hits than Cobb doesn't make him better than Cobb.
To answer your original question, Chuck Klein, Cobb, Joe Jackson, and Nap Lajoie (and a couple of players players from the 1800s) hit .359+ from age 20-26.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Fact is all of Roses hits are at the MLB level and like I said he hit during two era's of the game when when offense across the board was way down.
The difference isn't that big.
The overall NL batting average in Rose's era was .254.
The overall AL batting average in Ichiro's era was .263.
That would be 9 hits difference for every 1,000 ABs, so Rose "lost" about 126 hits.
I wonder if some people think Warren Moon is the all time passing leader in football?
Of course he is. When you add up college, CFL, NFl he is at 73,830 its a shame Peyton decided not to give it 1 more go this year. He could have broke the record. Instead he will have to settle for 2nd.
A few other career stats you might not be aware of - here are the true totals:
Herschel Walker Rushing Yards NFL 4859 - USFL 5562 - College - 5259- 15,680 Total
Kurt Warner Td's AFL - 183 NFL - 208 TD's - 391 Total
As far as Rose and Ichiro forget them both. We have to look at Ty Cobb in his barnstorming days. Im sure he played against some really good players.
He was in Cuba, California and yes even Japan. We need to get hold of those box scores so we can add to his tally of hits.
http://sabr.org/latest/simkus-...reer-professional-hits
Record is still Pete's!
aconte
what's a post?
It's a compelling argument regardless. Ichiro is a special case in a couple regards... (a) he had no choice, he was basically colluded against and kept out of the MLB for longer than he should have and (b) the HOF isn't exclusive to the MLB and in reality, "Hit King" really is a record exclusive to the MLB. Just depends on what perspective you choose to take. No, Japanese baseball is not equivalent to the MLB... but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have succeeded here during those years as well. Regardless, pretty damn impressive... I'm glad I got to see him play.
He wasn't colluded against, he was born in Japan
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Fact is all of Roses hits are at the MLB level and like I said he hit during two era's of the game when when offense across the board was way down.
The difference isn't that big.
The overall NL batting average in Rose's era was .254.
The overall AL batting average in Ichiro's era was .263.
That would be 9 hits difference for every 1,000 ABs, so Rose "lost" about 126 hits.
I think the increase in offense came from steroids, not weaker pitching. If anything, the pitching (and competition in general) was significantly tougher when Ichiro played compared to Rose.
Also, in regards to whether Ichiro would have started in the MLB immediately. It seems like most of Ichiro's critics argue that Japanese baseball is a high AAA caliber league. Well, Ichiro had a .385/.445/.549 slash line at the age of 20 in Japan (with 29 stolen bases). If Japan is AAA caliber, then it's reasonable to estimate a similar slash line in AAA. I have never heard of a minor league player staying in the minor leagues with that sort of production. It would be historic.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see him hitting 350 or even 310 as a major league rookie at 20. How's he hit 380 in Japan at that age and have 303 years in MLB when he should be in his prime. I've never taken the stance that he wouldn't have gotten the hits if given the shot from 20-26 in MLB I just think you can only speculate if he would you cant say he did it in Japan so he'd have done it here. If you think the comparison now is better than a steady dose of Koufax, Drysdale, Gibson, Marachal, Seaver, Ryan, Carlton, Jenkins etc etc than once again we will just have to disagree. I'm assuming that you think the new fad of bringing in a pitcher for the 6,7,8 and ninth makes it harder to hit. I on the other hand would rather have those other guys finish the game instead of some bum arm that couldn't start trying to get outs in the sixth or seventh.
I guess we will have to disagree.
When Pete Rose played Cuban players, Japanese players and Korean players were still banned from the MLB. Steroids weren't an issue. They still hadn't thought of properly utilizing the infield shift, relief pitchers or SABR metrics. I think baseball in the mid-1990's through the first decade of the 2000's was some of the most competitive baseball in history.
It's fun to speculate what might've happened. Pete Rose might've gotten 4,500 hits if he had modern conditioning, or he might not have reached even 3,000, who knows.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
I don't see him hitting 350 or even 310 as a major league rookie at 20. How's he hit 380 in Japan at that age and have 303 years in MLB when he should be in his prime.
.303 years in his prime? He had only one such season in MLB through age 36. He hit .303 at age 31, which is well past prime. He also set career highs with 15 HRs and 12 triples that year. Even if that were an off year, having an off year is normal, even for HOFers. He also hit .372, .352, .351, and .350.
He's STILL fast to 1B...imagine how fast he was at age 20. He was the first player in Japan to have 200 hits in a season.
Saying it's not a definite just because he produced in that league. It's a lower caliber league, more days off, leads to fresher legs, not as much wear etc etc for every positive you give I could give a but this or but that. Think we just have differnt opinions on that other league is all. I see 31 as a guys prime still maybe the back end of it but most big leaguers are still having quality years at that age, yes 303 is a good year lol no need to go there.
This is interesting it looks like a former MLB player broke IchIro's Japanese single season hit record.
Wiki link
On December 4, 2009, Murton was released by the Rockies,[10] who sold his contract to the Hanshin Tigers of Japan's Nippon Professional Baseball.[11] In Murton's rookie season with the Hanshin Tigers he became only the fourth player in Nippon Professional Baseball history to have a 200-hit season.[12] On October 5, 2010, Murton broke the single season hit record, set by Ichiro Suzuki (in 130 games), hitting his 211th hit (through 142 games).[13] He successfully finished his first regular season in Japan with 214 hits (in 144 games), .349 batting average, 17 home runs and 91 RBIs. Murton's single season hits record was eclipsed in 2015 by Shogo Akiyama of the Seibu Lions, who recorded 216 hits in 143 games.[14]
We need to stop pulling up IchIro's Japenese stats, the above plus dozens of other average to above average MLB players like Tuffy Rhodes, etc... that go to Japan and become stars has proven it's a weaker league.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I agree cakes. It is laughable. Japanese stats don't transfer.
Rate stats don't, but hits easily can because of the 32 extra games.
Age 20-36
Ichiro hits per season in Japan: 210, 179, 193, 185, 181, 141, 153
Ichiro hits per season in MLB: 242, 208, 212, 262, 206, 224, 238, 213, 225, 214
Seasonal hit totals don't mean much, anyway. One of the best hitters ever didn't have 3,000 career hits, and never had 200+ in a season. Ted Williams.
Article
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.