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A new Hit King
JHS5120
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Congrats to Ichiro getting his 4,256th and 4,257th professional hit last night. Took him 1,500 less at bats, against roided up pitchers and without cheating.
Deadspin says it best
Deadspin says it best
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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
i look forward to Matsui's 508 HR's getting him into the Baseball Hall of Fame!
You must be really mad that they let Josh Gibson into the hall of fame despite never hitting a home run. Despite never recording a hit the Baseball Hall of Fame cites him having "almost 800 home runs" on his plaque. Must have been a clerical error.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
MLB is the only league that counts for the record book.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
If Pete Rose wants to stay the American "Hit King" more power to him, but Ichiro has more professional hits than any baseball player in human history.
No he doesn't. Pete Rose had 427 additional professional hits in the minor leagues. Maybe you can call Ichiro the "highest level of baseball hits leader for USA/Japan". It just rolls off the tongue.
MLB is the only league that counts for the record book.
I guess everyone was drunk when they voted in Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
MLB is the only league that counts for the record book.
I guess everyone was drunk when they voted in Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige.
Nice straw man argument, but one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. We're not talking about Ichiro being voted into the HOF, which is likely to happen regardless.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I've got a couple unopened boxes of the two Japanese sets that has his NPB rookie, I'll have to try and find those suckers.
MLB is the only league that counts for the record book.
I guess everyone was drunk when they voted in Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige.
Nice straw man argument, but one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. We're not talking about Ichiro being voted into the HOF, which is likely to happen regardless.
You're right, we're talking about hits. The Baseball Hall of Fame recognized Josh Gibsons 800 home runs on his plaque and they will surely recognize Ichiro's ~4,500 hits on his plaque. There are no "record books" other than what history recognizes and the governing body of baseball history, the Baseball Hall of Fame, will undoubtly recognize Ichiro's hit total.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Maybe there is a typo but I see Pete Rose in 1st and Ichiro in 31st.
Professional years outside of the North American leagues are great in their own category, but certainly don't count on the same all-time records. Unfortunately, those years almost always lead to fans wondering "What if"?
Stat leaders
Maybe there is a typo but I see Pete Rose in 1st and Ichiro in 31st.
There must be. They have Josh Gibson's home run total as zero and Satchel Paige only winning 28 games.
It's not the MLB Hall of Fame, nor am I qualifying the "Hit King" title with "The MLB ..." The MLB is just one league. There are hall of fame players who never played in the MLB and there are inductees who even predate its existence.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
MLB is the only league that counts for the record book.
I guess everyone was drunk when they voted in Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige.
Nice straw man argument, but one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. We're not talking about Ichiro being voted into the HOF, which is likely to happen regardless.
You're right, we're talking about hits. The Baseball Hall of Fame recognized Josh Gibsons 800 home runs on his plaque and they will surely recognize Ichiro's ~4,500 hits on his plaque. There are no "record books" other than what history recognizes and the governing body of baseball history, the Baseball Hall of Fame, will undoubtly recognize Ichiro's hit total.
Acknowledgment on a plaque is a nice touch but it's still not the sane as holding the official record. Otherwise, Barry Bonds wouldn't be the career leader in home runs, either.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It's not the MLB Hall of Fame, nor am I qualifying the "Hit King" title with "The MLB ..." The MLB is just one league. There are hall of fame players who never played in the MLB and there are inductees who even predate its existence.
See also: Sadaharu Oh.
We can only wonder what amount of success he may have had in the MLB though.
MLB is the only league that counts for the record book.
I guess everyone was drunk when they voted in Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige.
Nice straw man argument, but one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. We're not talking about Ichiro being voted into the HOF, which is likely to happen regardless.
You're right, we're talking about hits. The Baseball Hall of Fame recognized Josh Gibsons 800 home runs on his plaque and they will surely recognize Ichiro's ~4,500 hits on his plaque. There are no "record books" other than what history recognizes and the governing body of baseball history, the Baseball Hall of Fame, will undoubtly recognize Ichiro's hit total.
Acknowledgment on a plaque is a nice touch but it's still not the sane as holding the official record. Otherwise, Barry Bonds wouldn't be the career leader in home runs, either.
What official record? Every official record will be for Major League Baseball. Which yes, Pete Rose has the most hits for the North American baseball league, the MLB. But Ichiro has more hits for ALL baseball. Ichiro has more hits than anyone at their respective highest level.
The baseball Hall of Fame includes negro league statistics in their "official record." There is no reason to exclude the JPPL.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Icharo averaged 225 hits a season his first 10 years with an average of playing in 160 games per season. His average per season during this period was 680AB 224 Hits .329AVG. Now Japan played a shorter season and he averaged 124 games per season 481 ABs 177 hits and averaged .368 in 7 full seasons in the Japan League.
There is no reason to believe that Icharo would not have carried over the same skill level he played in MLB during that 10 year stretch had he played only in MLB. His style of play and ability would have had him thriving in the big leagues for those 7 seasons he played in Japan. If anything, the Japanese league held him back from taking the "hit King" title much earlier.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Icharo is definitely the hit king in my opinion. He's have had more hits in fact if he came to the US sooner. The only reason he was not here sooner was due to the fact of a professional sport and many of its fans with a long history of bigotry and maintaining a stereotype that certain people of race could not "cut it" in the major leagues. Of course Icharo finally made it over to MLB and proved all of them wrong.
Icharo averaged 225 hits a season his first 10 years with an average of playing in 160 games per season. His average per season during this period was 680AB 224 Hits .329AVG. Now Japan played a shorter season and he averaged 124 games per season 481 ABs 177 hits and averaged .368 in 7 full seasons in the Japan League.
There is no reason to believe that Icharo would not have carried over the same skill level he played in MLB during that 10 year stretch had he played only in MLB. His style of play and ability would have had him thriving in the big leagues for those 7 seasons he played in Japan. If anything, the Japanese league held him back from taking the "hit King" title much earlier.
It wasn't bigotry, it was Japanese owners not allowing their players to play in America. The first Japanese player to play in America was Masaniro Mirakani. He played in 1964, won the California League rookie of the year and was called up at the age of 20, struck out 10.1 batters per 9 innings over 45 relief appearances and had a FIP of 2.81. He would've had a tremendous career in the majors, but the Japanese team owners and SF Giants couldn't agree on a contract, so they stopped working with each other and decided to bar Japanese players from playing in the US. It wasn't until Hideo Nomo in 1995 did they allow another player to enter the state's.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
I would consider Rose still the Hit King of the MLB....but baseball itself I see Icharo as the hit king.
Haul to Ichiro
Who's giving him 20K+ cards?
The baseball Hall of Fame includes negro league statistics in their "official record." There is no reason to exclude the JPPL.
The Negros Leagues were played in the US. That is why they include them. The HOF is about American baseball, not Japan, not Korea, etc.. I have no reason to believe Ichiro wouldn't have hit well his first 7 years if he were in the MLB but they weren't, they were in Japan. Simple as that. I'm thrilled the Asian players did come over and add diversity that was missing. Sure, the HOF recognizes foreign greatness, but not when it comes to including it in their statistics/records.
If you want to call him the International Hit King, fine by me but I dont think the HOF (Cooperstown) will ever include his Japanese hits or call him the Hit King because it's about MLB statistics (not NPB/JPPL).
The Japanese owners did play a small part in Japanese players not coming to the US but what really prevented these players from getting the chance to play MLB was the casual stereotyping of the Asian baseball player. The general belief held by most if not all MLB teams and most of the fans was that Asian players could not cut it even in the minor leagues in the US. They really had nothing to base this on however since historically there was nothing to base this off of. It was more of a bigoted belief. Even when pitchers like Hideo Nomo finally broke through that barrier it took nearly 10 years for Icharo to become the first position player allowed to play in MLB. This was because even though pitchers were showing some success in the league they still carried on with the stereotype that Asian players could not hit MLB pitchers.
I would consider Rose still the Hit King of the MLB....but baseball itself I see Icharo as the hit king.
Do you have any fact-based sources for this because I'd be interested in reading them.
Kaz Matsui averaged 170 hits in the eight years in Japan leading up to his first year as a Met. In NY, he had 65 hits. If the level of competition is not comparable, how can you compare apples and oranges?
That's a small sampling considering the circumstances, some players will never succeed due to the extreme change and culture shock.
Kaz Matsui averaged 170 hits in the eight years in Japan leading up to his first year as a Met. In NY, he had 65 hits. If the level of competition is not comparable, how can you compare apples and oranges?
You might want to recheck his numbers.
With all that being said, this is the wrong forum for this thread.
Kaz Matsui averaged 170 hits in the eight years in Japan leading up to his first year as a Met. In NY, he had 65 hits. If the level of competition is not comparable, how can you compare apples and oranges?
You might want to recheck his numbers.
Yep, misread it, but he certainly never approached his Japan numbers, though he did have a few decent years.
Sorry anything he did in Japan stays there. Who was the guy that hit like 10mlb homers than went to Japan and slaughtered there single season record? Does that record count here?
Of course they count. If Pete Rose wants to stay the American "Hit King" more power to him, but Ichiro has more professional hits than any baseball player in human history.
Technically then... When a player signs a professional baseball contract, they 99.9% of the time start out in the minor leagues... which, yes, is professional baseball. Pete Rose had 427 in his first 3 years of professional baseball.
I'd consider that, at least, comparable to the Japanese pro league (NPB).
So, okay, if that's the case, Ichiro only needs 426 more "professional" hits to pass Pete Rose.
I respect, but don't necessarily care for, either player. Nor do I have a vested interest in either. Just saying, you should be comparing apples to apples, not apples to all fruits!
MLB is the only league that counts for the record book.
I guess everyone was drunk when they voted in Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige.
Nice straw man argument, but one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. We're not talking about Ichiro being voted into the HOF, which is likely to happen regardless.
You're right, we're talking about hits. The Baseball Hall of Fame recognized Josh Gibsons 800 home runs on his plaque and they will surely recognize Ichiro's ~4,500 hits on his plaque. There are no "record books" other than what history recognizes and the governing body of baseball history, the Baseball Hall of Fame, will undoubtly recognize Ichiro's hit total.
Acknowledgment on a plaque is a nice touch but it's still not the sane as holding the official record. Otherwise, Barry Bonds wouldn't be the career leader in home runs, either.
Top it off got MVP votes at four differnt positions.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
John Cleese once said that a big difference between Britain and the US is that when Britain hosts a world championship they actually invite participation from other countries
If the world series champion played the best team from any other country for a global championship, who do you think would win?? If you think anyone other than the world series team, you really need to watch more baseball.
This idea is reminiscent of the UEFA Champions League. A key difference being that many of the leagues comprising it are of relatively equivalent skill and reputation or similar enough that the UEFA remains a worthwhile event without forgone conclusion that the winner will be from a particular league (EPL vs. La Liga vs. Bundesliga vs. etc. etc.)
The downfall in the baseball comparison is that baseball is generally regarded to have a higher degree of tier separation, as opposed to the football example (sorry, soccer for those thinking American football).
Before 1926, the Stanley Cup was awarded to the winner of a challenge between league winners because there were multiple leagues that were considered to be relatively equivalent. Now, the NHL is clearly regarded as the best league, and the others considered to be a tier below. Inviting the winner of the Japanese or Cuban baseball leagues to play vs. the MLB champion would be similar to other sports such as hockey; it would make sense to have a UEFA-similar champions league where teams from the SHL, KHL, SM Liiga, AHL, DEL, etc. could compete against each other, but you would never consider including the NHL with that group.
If the world series champion played the best team from any other country for a global championship, who do you think would win?? If you think anyone other than the world series team, you really need to watch more baseball.
Japan seems to man handle the MLB in the WBC, so I guess Japan?
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
The thing I will point out regarding your Gibson/Paige argument is that they were forced to play in a different league because of racism and segregation. The MLB decided to honor stats of the Negro League, likely because had racism not occurred, those players would have been in the majors anyway. I'm not wanting to spin this thread into a race issue, I just want to point out that Ichiro did not stay out of MLB because of racism. He was free to come to the MLB if he wanted barring a team wanting to take him (before signing any contracts with a Japanese team). Instead, he honed his skills in the Japanese League and took the Majors by storm in 2001.
Ichiro's hit totals are still incredible, but it will be unlikely anyone will ever view him as passing Charlie Hustle's totals.
ETA: Japanese contract addition
I just want to throw something else out there and this is nothing against Ichiro, because he will go down as one of the greatest. 262 hits in a single season (2004) is nothing short of miraculous!
The thing I will point out regarding your Gibson/Paige argument is that they were forced to play in a different league because of racism and segregation. The MLB decided to honor stats of the Negro League, likely because had racism not occurred, those players would have been in the majors anyway. I'm not wanting to spin this thread into a race issue, I just want to point out that Ichiro did not stay out of MLB because of racism. He was free to come to the MLB if he wanted barring a team wanting to take him. Instead, he honed his skills in the Japanese League and took the Majors by storm in 2001.
Ichiro's hit totals are still incredible, but it will be unlikely anyone will ever view him as passing Charlie Hustle's totals.
Japanese league owners didn't allow their players to leave Japan; actually, there was an informal agreement between the MLB and NPB stretching back to the 1960's to keep Japanese players in Japan. Ichiro couldn't leave Japan until he was a free agent in 2001. The Mariners actually had to pay the Orix $13 million just to talk to Ichiro.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Someone here stated that ichiro was a better hitter than rose?? I'm not sure how anyone comes to that conclusion. Even with that 314 lifetime average he only had an OBP over 400 once and he had to hit 370 to do it. Ichiro was the definition of a one dimensional hitter he could slap a single as good as anyone but what else? It's great when they say he had great power in BP.......fact is it never carried over into games. In his prime Rose got on base more, hit for more power and to
Top it off got MVP votes at four differnt positions.
I said he was a better hitter because he was, maybe not a better offensive player and definitely not a better all-around player... I'm talking strictly about hitting the baseball. Pete Rose had more than double the walks Ichiro did, that'll get you on base but that's not hitting... Ichiro is a free swinger that likes to hit. But Ichiro wasn't chopped liver either... he did hit doubles and triples and only has 47 less HRs than Rose (in 8 less years of playing). Barry Bonds is the best HITTER I've ever seen, but Ichiro is right there behind him with a slew of other guys.
I just want to throw something else out there and this is nothing against Ichiro, because he will go down as one of the greatest. 262 hits in a single season (2004) is nothing short of miraculous!
The thing I will point out regarding your Gibson/Paige argument is that they were forced to play in a different league because of racism and segregation. The MLB decided to honor stats of the Negro League, likely because had racism not occurred, those players would have been in the majors anyway. I'm not wanting to spin this thread into a race issue, I just want to point out that Ichiro did not stay out of MLB because of racism. He was free to come to the MLB if he wanted barring a team wanting to take him. Instead, he honed his skills in the Japanese League and took the Majors by storm in 2001.
Ichiro's hit totals are still incredible, but it will be unlikely anyone will ever view him as passing Charlie Hustle's totals.
Japanese league owners didn't allow their players to leave Japan; actually, there was an informal agreement between the MLB and NPB stretching back to the 1960's to keep Japanese players in Japan. Ichiro couldn't leave Japan until he was a free agent in 2001. The Mariners actually had to pay the Orix $13 million just to talk to Ichiro.
I must have added that edit to my post while you were replying, but I did forget to write the part about being under contract. Had he not signed a contract and been playing, he could have come. Sorry I left that out.