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What happens when....
acloco
Posts: 952 ✭✭✭
Fully realize that toned coins are "in" right now. What happens when the beauty leaves the surfaces that are not natural toning?
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Don
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In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I think Mick knows what happens
Cool
Probably best to dump it before any changes. That's gotta be the right answer now.
I like toned coins. But, wondering what will happen when some of the items, especially those purchased at a premium price, head south.
Just a what if question.
I like toned coins. But, wondering what will happen when some of the items, especially those purchased at a premium price, head south.
I feel there's a substantially greater risk in buying a freshly dipped white coin which will turn in the holder as it wasn't neutralized properly then a toner.
As long as your buying toned coins which aren't so dark the underlying original luster isn't subdued by the toning you should be fine.
I still have my copy of the Coin Preservation Handbook from the 1960's. It explains how coins should be stored and the causes of tarnish, attack of surfaces from humidity and salt air, etc.
When silver was staying in a low range, I had some nice Italian World Silver Coins from the 1960's (about $5-$10 coins in price) over a period of ten years. The coins had to be dipped every 3-4 years. Eventually I was able to move them.
I can't imagine someone paying $4500 for a toned coin and expecting it to be as nice 5 years from now. I was looking at a PF70 gold eagle that has only been in its holder 4 years and already its getting some unattractive toning. Unless a coin is stored in a vacuum, good luck.
I recently bought a couple of halves from a well known dealer's auction. They sold well in about a month making a good margin. Wish I could move everything quickly like that.
Sadly many beautifully toned coins will go bad in the holder and be essentially worthless.. Toning is a polite word for tarnish. Tarnished coins get worse over time. Eventually they will need to be conserved....
I can't imagine someone paying $4500 for a toned coin and expecting it to be as nice 5 years from now. I was looking at a PF70 gold eagle that has only been in its holder 4 years and already its getting some unattractive toning. Unless a coin is stored in a vacuum, good luck.
My experiences are 100% the opposite of the above. And frankly, I shudder at buying a bright white, dipped $4500 coin today not knowing what it may look like in 5-15 years. Been there, done that.
Other than previously dipped coins, I cannot recall a single choice/gem unc bust, seated, or Barber coin I've ever owned changing in appearance over the past 20-40 years. In fact, I can't think of a single important toned ch/gem unc seated coin I've had knowledge of the past 40 years that changed negatively. Out of hundreds of important coins, not a single one.....though I'd admit there ought to be a few that changed. For the 100 or so I've personally owned, no changes to my knowledge.
I've had a recent post about my nicely toned gem 1858-0 dime and quarter. Both were purchased by me in 1982-1983 as possible finest knowns at that time (for over $4K each). They sat in mylar coin flips until 1988 when they got slabbed as MS65's. I sold the dime in 2004 and it was totally unchanged over those 22 years. Recent 2014-2015 auction photos of both coins show them completely unchanged to my eyes over the past 33 years. So much for getting worse in 5 years. In fact I've owned numerous toned, orig skin, gem seated coins over the past 30 years and none of them toned darker or looked worse.
The MS66 1855 toner half dollar (ex-James Stack 1975) doesn't seem to have changed any. I owned it from 2002-2009 and it's unchanged today, 13 years later. That sold for $900 in 1975, $14,375 in 2002, approx $54,000 several years ago. James Bennett Pryor, Mike Riordan, myself, and others didn't mind one bit owning James Stack's 1855 gem half headed towards eventual environmental armageddon.
The famous James Stack 1871-cc and 1873-cc NA toned gem quarters are essentially unchanged today, 40 yrs later since I first saw them. I look back on orig toned silver coin gems from Stack, Bareford, Robison, Emory Nichols, Norweb, Buddy Ebsen, Pittman, Eliasberg, Vermuelle, Queller, etc. and I can't remember any important coins that have changed in appearance (those auctions are 13-42 years ago). The Queller 1839-0 gem proof/SP half (2002) came out of Robison in 1982. Didn't seemed to have changed any, even today.
Dipped coins are another issue though. I purchased a white 1853 NA MS67 quarter around 1996. You could tell it was dipped within the past 5-8 years. I owned that coin for about 12 years and it slowly turned a deeper brown every couple years. I'd imagine that coin will have slightly negative eye appeal at some point. I sold it before it toned any further. An 1866-s MS66 25c I owned briefly in 1988 had been dipped around 11-15 years earlier. It was overly bright but still a wonderful, finest known specimen. In 1988 it showed an extremely minor tiny dark spot over Liberty's head. When I saw it again 20 years later I was nearly moved to tears. That tiny spot became multiple spots, one of them was now pretty darn BIG, bordering on negative eye appeal. It's still a MS66 but I can only see it getting worse...until it's "conserved" again. The James Stack 1867-s 25c was approx 80% white in 1975 on original skin. You'd have thought that in 40 years it would have at least turned a little darker? Not to my knowledge. Still looks 80% white today with no mottled toning spots having yet shown up. A testament to original skin coins kept in mostly inert slabs. I'd give you that one early generation holder of NGC slabs have a very active insert that accelerated toning, especially on dipped coins.
In one lifetime, it's expected that if you buy stable, original skin toned gems, they should stay that way....unless you subject them to considerable moisture or other chemicals in your basement/attic. In a safe deposit box with chem safe tabs, inert outer holders, etc. not likely they will change unless they were previously incorrectly dipped. And even correctly dipped coins can acquire that lovable "puke" brown toning over 5-15 years.
Sure, given hundreds of years more our slabbed gem toned coins might get to dark blue/black. I won't be around for that. The 1858-o coins from above have been out there now for 158 years without ruinous affects....not changing over at least the past 35 years.
I do know that a US Mint issued 1896 Barber quarter (receipt included) kept tightly wrapped in the heavy mint wrapper (ie lots of sulfur) turned to deep blue by 1988 when it was finally unwrapped at my local B&M. That's about 90 years wrapped in a highly accelerated toning environment....nothing quite like what coins today would normally be exposed to. That coin was still gem enough to grade MS66 in 1988 and sold for $6500 to one of the sharpest TPG graders of that time. John Clapp put away dozens of mint fresh Barber coins in the 1892-1916 period, which later became part of the Eliasberg collection. All of those did tone over the next 60-100 years. But I suspect that since being slabbed, that rate of toning has slowed to an invisible crawl.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I've seen this go to a total disaster with some Proof Indian cents. A well known dealer bought a group of these coins in PR-65, Red holders. The coins began to go bad in the holder, and within a few months the coins were completely destroyed.
This is one of the risks with "red copper" that has been chemically treated to turn it from brown to red. Two things can happen together or separately. Under the normal conditions the exposed virgin metal is subject to attack from the atmosphere which can turn it brown or even cause corrosion. In the worse case the coin was not properly rinsed and the chemicals that caused the coin to turn red again, continued to react with the copper or bronze. In the end the chemicals destroy the coin.
It has been my experience that naturally toned copper and silver coins are very stable. I've owned this 1805 dime for forty years, and it has not changed during the time I have owned. This coin has been stored in proper numismatic devices (First a Capital Plastics custom holder and then a PCGS slab) for all of the time that I have owned. it.
Some experts claim that coins like this will eventually turn as black as coal. That has not been my experience for the original surfaces coins that I have owned for a long time, given proper storage. Maybe this coin will turn as black as coal some day, but given the rate of change I've seen, I'll be long gone when it happens.
Some experts claim that coins like this will eventually turn as black as coal. That has not been my experience for the original surfaces coins that I have owned for a long time, given proper storage. Maybe this coin will turn as black as coal some day, but given the rate of change I've seen, I'll be long when it happens.
Beautiful 1805 Bill. I've never owned a draped bust dime in that high a grade though always wanted to.
I suspect that not to far down the road, the technology to impart a vacuum seal to our slabs would exist. I doubt we will subject them to another 50-150 years of environmental toning....unless you want them to tone further.
Some over-dipped or cleaned coins need that additional toning to make them look more attractive/marketable. An 1858-s XF45 quarter I bought back in 2010 was over-dipped or minimally over-cleaned. It still had fair eye appeal and was not unattractive by any means. But, no doubt with another few decades of toning, that coin would probably completely mask those bright, hard surfaces.
I believe your assessment of the coins you have described are dead on. They are no doubt naturally toned and have been stable for many decades and they are likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.
But you are describing coins that are around 150 to 200 years old. That is not what I thought the OP was saying:
"Fully realize that toned coins are "in" right now. What happens when the beauty leaves the surfaces that are not natural toning?"
I took this to mean, what happens to those monster rainbow toned coins that were recently toned and specifically those that weren't naturally toned.
Those coins, I believe, are a major risk.
A coin doctor who sells most of his work in slabs sold me a few Morgan dollars with attractive natural looking toning around the rims. After about a year they started to turn from pretty rainbow colors to a kind of olive drab.
Those coins that are selling for multiples of what they would sell for without the toning are the risky coins. IMO
As Bill and others have eluded to, an originally toned skin is actually enormously protective to the coin and the layers of patina impart a natural (imperfect) barrier to further corrosion.
Unfortunately, the solution for Peace dollars is simple...... just dip 'em again. Too many cycles of this will leave us with lesser and lesser coins as time goes on. Re-toning and original toning are usually very different animals. Look at original vs. retoned CBH coins as a perfect example of this. I envision a future time when the only ones with decent luster will be those that were heretofore thought to be ugly ducklings. But, don't hold your breath. It isn't going to happen for a great number of years, if ever.....
The the OP- unless it's an AT hack job you have little to worry about.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I have a feeling, also, that slabbing coins is probably also a deterrent to additional toning. (Assuming we have gotten beyond some of the early versions with sulfur paper).
The decrease in airflow, and therefore any contaminants, will probably keep even the whitest coin pretty white for a long time.
These colors are quite light. And I don't think it will turn into a lump of coal any time soon. Odd it wasn't stickered as it's a fairly choice MS64 even w/o color. Suggests to me CAC either didn't see it yet or.....?
1922 I come in Peace Dollar MS64