PCGS upgrades Gene Gardner's 1858-0 quarter to MS65 pop 1
roadrunner
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It seems you have to check the pop reports or coin facts fairly frequently to see what is getting upgraded. While looking at the 9 consecutive grading events/appearances on a MS67 Wisconsin in Mark's thread, I took a look at one of my favorite dates in seated quarters, 1858-0.
Surprise. The Gardner 1858-0 in PCGS MS64+ that sold for $21K last time out, is now PCGS MS65. The pop report shows the 64+ gone and a new listing for a MS65 at $35,000. This coin held special interest to me because it was the only absolute gem New Orleans seated quarter I was able to find and purchase in the 1980's for my price goal of $5,000 or under. One well known major dealer (who is huge today) sent me a lightly cleaned, slider/AU55 1858-0 in 1983 for $3,000. It was worth at most $500. I bought the gem 1858-0 out of a February 1983 Superior auction for $4200 (my high bid was in the $5,000-$5,500 range). In my mind that date was the most underrated of all O mints in uncirculated....though with the higher 1/2 MILL mintage you'd have a hard time convincing most people back then. I think it was Brad Bonhert who at the time shipped the coin out to me a few months ahead of the sale to look at it. It was all there too just like he said. I held it for 7 years when Andy Lustig/Stuart Levine acquired it from me in spring 1990 at the Boston Bay State show. They also got my 56-0 as well.
As O mint seated quarters go, most have subdued luster, and are either dipped or with neutral to below average mottled toning. This one had blazing luster, no rub, attractive mottled toning, and minimal marks. I can count on one hand the number of gem New Orleans seated quarters than meet that criteria. One tiny right obv field scuff was the only thing I could recall for marks. It hasn't changed appearance since I first saw it in 1983. It was submitted to PCGS in 1988 and came back MS64 which didn't please me very much. NGC saw it the following month and graded in MS65. At the same time I had a raw gem 1856-0 quarter than went to NGC first, receiving a grade of MS64. Again, I wasn't happy. So I swapped TPG's on this pair and both came back MS65 from the "other guy." The 56-0 was ex-Gene Edwards from Heritage's 1982 summer ANA sale. Gene Gardner also ended up with this coin in his set as NGC MS65 (someone cracked it out of the PCGS holder and it never made it back due to slightly muted luster under orig toning).
Someone cracked my ex-58-0 out over the years and it finally popped up again in a PCGS MS64+ holder (Heritage 9/2011 sale at $20,700....actually fetching less than I sold it for in 1990). 64+ seemed sort of conservative to me because all those years I figured the coin had enough blast and eye appeal to go MS66 someday. Gene bought the 58-0 quarter as an "upgrade" to his NGC MS65 when it appeared a 2nd time at a Heritage auction in 10/2012 at $25,820. He liked this one a whole lot better. When Gene sold it in 5/2015 it realized about 18% less at $21,150.
So finally, after 30 years, PCGS finally grades an 1858-0 quarter as MS65. Since it's only been about a year since Gene had it, I have to figure that someone else had more "grading oomph" to get 'er done this time around. No doubt it was tried for a cross/upgrade when still a 64+. I might guess that the owner who had this as an NGC MS65 in the 2009-2011 market "dump" probably realized that as an unstickered NCG MS65, it wasn't worth near what it should be. NGC coins were largely battered by the market. And when not stickered you were looking at 25-40% discounts. So hence someone's desire to drop it to PCGS MS64+. I had briefly considered buying the coin back in 2011 "hoping" I could snag it in the 64+ stickerless holder for $15K or less. If there was a time to rip such a coin then 2011 was it. But, it brought a strong price regardless.
It will be interesting to see if this stickers because it wasn't stickered when a 64+. Guess that sort of vindicates Gene's opinion of it as being nicer than the others he'd seen. It's certainly nicer than any I saw from 1975-2011. There are some NGC MS65's but I don't think they are the equal. CAC has only stickered a single 58-0 unc (MS62) tying it with the 52-0. Goes to show just how difficult it is to find these early O mints graded properly with some appeal. The 42-0 sd, 43-0, 47-0, 49-0, 55-0 all have a single 63/64/67 stickered coin. Those are just as tough to find "right." The 54-0, 57-0 and 60-0 have from 5-8 CAC appearances each, the most available of the 1840-1860 run. The 53-0 A&R has no mint state CAC appearances.
I still have the original invoice for the 58-0 25c when I bought it in 1983. I liked this date so much that I decided to build a mint set of this date as all the denominations were clearly underrated. I already owned a gem 58-0 dime and once I got this quarter, it seemed like "easy" sailing to find the more common gem half dime and half dollar. Early on, I did buy a pair of MS63/64 coins for the remaining two as space-fillers. It took 5 years to find a gem half at auction....which I really didn't want to pay a 65% premium buy in 1988 as the "lowly" half dime still hadn't even shown up. The market moved up so much in 1989/1990 that it made more sense to sell off the coins and forget about set completion. So I never completed the set in full gem. Since then, a few superb gems of both the half dime and half dollar have shown up....though they are still tough nonetheless.
Several gem 58-0 dimes have since showed up on the pop reports. In fact when Norweb went to auction in 1987/1988 I graded their 58-0 dime a 63+/64 due to some scattered obverse hits/digs on Liberty's body. Imagine my disappointment when Martin Paul bought that for around $3K and got it into a PCGS MS65 holder same as my much better coin! That toasted me. And nearly 30 years later, my old PCGS MS65 is now PCGS MS66+ CAC and possibly perceived as the finest known (Gene's ex-coin). 1858 New Orleans was a forgotten year in silver coinage for quite some time.
1858-0 25c PCGS MS65
Surprise. The Gardner 1858-0 in PCGS MS64+ that sold for $21K last time out, is now PCGS MS65. The pop report shows the 64+ gone and a new listing for a MS65 at $35,000. This coin held special interest to me because it was the only absolute gem New Orleans seated quarter I was able to find and purchase in the 1980's for my price goal of $5,000 or under. One well known major dealer (who is huge today) sent me a lightly cleaned, slider/AU55 1858-0 in 1983 for $3,000. It was worth at most $500. I bought the gem 1858-0 out of a February 1983 Superior auction for $4200 (my high bid was in the $5,000-$5,500 range). In my mind that date was the most underrated of all O mints in uncirculated....though with the higher 1/2 MILL mintage you'd have a hard time convincing most people back then. I think it was Brad Bonhert who at the time shipped the coin out to me a few months ahead of the sale to look at it. It was all there too just like he said. I held it for 7 years when Andy Lustig/Stuart Levine acquired it from me in spring 1990 at the Boston Bay State show. They also got my 56-0 as well.
As O mint seated quarters go, most have subdued luster, and are either dipped or with neutral to below average mottled toning. This one had blazing luster, no rub, attractive mottled toning, and minimal marks. I can count on one hand the number of gem New Orleans seated quarters than meet that criteria. One tiny right obv field scuff was the only thing I could recall for marks. It hasn't changed appearance since I first saw it in 1983. It was submitted to PCGS in 1988 and came back MS64 which didn't please me very much. NGC saw it the following month and graded in MS65. At the same time I had a raw gem 1856-0 quarter than went to NGC first, receiving a grade of MS64. Again, I wasn't happy. So I swapped TPG's on this pair and both came back MS65 from the "other guy." The 56-0 was ex-Gene Edwards from Heritage's 1982 summer ANA sale. Gene Gardner also ended up with this coin in his set as NGC MS65 (someone cracked it out of the PCGS holder and it never made it back due to slightly muted luster under orig toning).
Someone cracked my ex-58-0 out over the years and it finally popped up again in a PCGS MS64+ holder (Heritage 9/2011 sale at $20,700....actually fetching less than I sold it for in 1990). 64+ seemed sort of conservative to me because all those years I figured the coin had enough blast and eye appeal to go MS66 someday. Gene bought the 58-0 quarter as an "upgrade" to his NGC MS65 when it appeared a 2nd time at a Heritage auction in 10/2012 at $25,820. He liked this one a whole lot better. When Gene sold it in 5/2015 it realized about 18% less at $21,150.
So finally, after 30 years, PCGS finally grades an 1858-0 quarter as MS65. Since it's only been about a year since Gene had it, I have to figure that someone else had more "grading oomph" to get 'er done this time around. No doubt it was tried for a cross/upgrade when still a 64+. I might guess that the owner who had this as an NGC MS65 in the 2009-2011 market "dump" probably realized that as an unstickered NCG MS65, it wasn't worth near what it should be. NGC coins were largely battered by the market. And when not stickered you were looking at 25-40% discounts. So hence someone's desire to drop it to PCGS MS64+. I had briefly considered buying the coin back in 2011 "hoping" I could snag it in the 64+ stickerless holder for $15K or less. If there was a time to rip such a coin then 2011 was it. But, it brought a strong price regardless.
It will be interesting to see if this stickers because it wasn't stickered when a 64+. Guess that sort of vindicates Gene's opinion of it as being nicer than the others he'd seen. It's certainly nicer than any I saw from 1975-2011. There are some NGC MS65's but I don't think they are the equal. CAC has only stickered a single 58-0 unc (MS62) tying it with the 52-0. Goes to show just how difficult it is to find these early O mints graded properly with some appeal. The 42-0 sd, 43-0, 47-0, 49-0, 55-0 all have a single 63/64/67 stickered coin. Those are just as tough to find "right." The 54-0, 57-0 and 60-0 have from 5-8 CAC appearances each, the most available of the 1840-1860 run. The 53-0 A&R has no mint state CAC appearances.
I still have the original invoice for the 58-0 25c when I bought it in 1983. I liked this date so much that I decided to build a mint set of this date as all the denominations were clearly underrated. I already owned a gem 58-0 dime and once I got this quarter, it seemed like "easy" sailing to find the more common gem half dime and half dollar. Early on, I did buy a pair of MS63/64 coins for the remaining two as space-fillers. It took 5 years to find a gem half at auction....which I really didn't want to pay a 65% premium buy in 1988 as the "lowly" half dime still hadn't even shown up. The market moved up so much in 1989/1990 that it made more sense to sell off the coins and forget about set completion. So I never completed the set in full gem. Since then, a few superb gems of both the half dime and half dollar have shown up....though they are still tough nonetheless.
Several gem 58-0 dimes have since showed up on the pop reports. In fact when Norweb went to auction in 1987/1988 I graded their 58-0 dime a 63+/64 due to some scattered obverse hits/digs on Liberty's body. Imagine my disappointment when Martin Paul bought that for around $3K and got it into a PCGS MS65 holder same as my much better coin! That toasted me. And nearly 30 years later, my old PCGS MS65 is now PCGS MS66+ CAC and possibly perceived as the finest known (Gene's ex-coin). 1858 New Orleans was a forgotten year in silver coinage for quite some time.
1858-0 25c PCGS MS65
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Latin American Collection
It now has a show grading cert number that does not match the MS64+ number so it was either a show regrade or a crackout and submitted at a show.
Can't imagine why it would not sticker at 64 - guess JA thought it was low end for the grade with the mottled toning. Unless he has a change of heart like PCGS did, cannot imagine it will sticker as a 65. Still a great coin, and an example of shunning a great coin if you have a "buy only PCGS CAC" approach.
Looks like PCGS previously did not like the mottled toning for a 65, and now they are OK with it. With the blazing luster and the toning mostly near the rims, the coin probably looks "65 all day" in hand.
Can't imagine why it would not sticker at 64 - guess JA thought it was low end for the grade with the mottled toning. Unless he has a change of heart like PCGS did, cannot imagine it will sticker as a 65. Still a great coin, and an example of shunning a great coin if you have a "buy only PCGS CAC" approach.
I could only think that JA wasn't a fan of that mottled toning. He could have thought it was AT'd or accelerated along the way. Since I know of the coin since 1982 I don't see it being AT'd. It probably spent some time in a Raymond album or a similar environment. Andy Lustig paid serious money for that coin in 1990 as a pop 1, finest graded. I doubt he had a problem with the grade or the toning. I've always considered that 58-0 as possibly the most pure, unmessed with gem mint state 1840-1860 New Orleans seated quarter. I don't know of any gems with better luster as nearly all have thick toning or were dipped out. Simply stated, O mint seated quarters just don't come like that.
The blow up photo shows that complete lack of rub on all the usual high points: wing tips, claw knuckles, eagle's brow, arrow head tips, Liberty's arm, drapery folds, knee, etc. The wing tips are actually peaked. Most 64 and lower coins will show some rub/friction on those points. And even some 65/66 coins show rub too. There is a PCGS MS66 1860-0 quarter than I passed on back in 1984 at $3,000. I was really fussy and couldn't see it is a no question, rub-free gem. That coin had some obvious dark black obv high points that just didn't sit right with me. And a squiggle mark on the upper left reverse field sealed it for me. Ironic that it's graded MS66 CAC today and was buyable at less money than the 58-0 back in the day. And the 58-0 had to fight tooth and nail for a 65 grade 30 years later. I've always felt this 58-0 kicked the heck out of that coin. I think that 60-0 quarter ended up with Gene Gardner as well.
1860-0 PCGS MS66 CAC
Not as much Obv high point oxidation as I remember. And stickered too. When last catalogued the rev mark was called a planchet flaw + 2 pin point tics. That's not how I remember it and I had it for 2 days under 16X magnification to study it. Didn't want to send it back to dealer Bill Egbert but just couldn't get past the high point issues + reverse squiggle. It was the 3rd best "gem" O mint I had sent to me in the 1980's. Take away those 2 issues and I'd have paid $4,000-$5,000 for it in 1984. No matter what you call it, that reverse "squiggle" is a distraction that should affect the grade.
All the MS65 or higher grade O mint seated quarters at Heritage archives
That's quite a motley crue of O mints. The 1841-0 in MS67 is undoubtedly the same one Jim Halperin's NERCG auctioned back in 1980 for over $40,000. It was pure white back then and seems to have added some toning since.
Interesting "toner" 1860 Philly seated quarter. Unlike Morgan dollars, I have to question an early seated quarter with vibrant obv color and a reverse that looks like it was pure white in the past 20 years. Generally, both sides tend to match, or at least look somewhat similar.
For the 1860 Philly, I wonder if it sat in a felt coin cabinet where the reverse was protected and the obverse was more exposed to oxidation. You can see a comparable effect on the 1971 RCM Prooflike Silver dollars which were housed in felt lined cases without capsules.
Interesting "toner" 1860 Philly seated quarter. Unlike Morgan dollars, I have to question an early seated quarter with vibrant obv color and a reverse that looks like it was pure white in the past 20 years. Generally, both sides tend to match, or at least look somewhat similar.
For the 1860 Philly, I wonder if it sat in a felt coin cabinet where the reverse was protected and the obverse was more exposed to oxidation. You can see a comparable effect on the 1971 RCM Prooflike Silver dollars which were housed in felt lined cases without capsules.
Maybe. The obv toning reminds me of how Philly no motto proofs often look.
You can't penalize no motto O mint quarters too much on strike. Nearly every date comes a bit soft somewhere, often in the centers + stars. Half or more of the dates tend to come struck lousy, such as the 57-0 and 52-0. On the 58-0 it might be the denticles. The 60-0 is actually one of the years that tends to come better struck. This MS66 60-0 has the often seen shield clashing next to the eagle's head and faint mint mark.
Love your posts, following coins you've owned in the past, as they journey through different holders and collections.
Great thread.
Love your posts, following coins you've owned in the past, as they journey through different holders and collections.
Thanks Boosibri and Yosclimber. It's sort of a way to close a longer term "loop." Gene selling the coin and then getting it back into a deserved MS65 holder sort of does that. The best time to have owned the 58-0 25c coin was when I did. Though if it were owned from 1973-1980 it would have done very well too. From 1990-2015 it stayed at the same price range. That's 25 yrs of stagnation. If the PCGS price guide is accurate, it just jumped 60% in value in 12 months ($21K as 64+ to $35K as 65).
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience!
Thank you.
All the MS65 or higher grade O mint seated quarters at Heritage archives
That's quite a motley crue of O mints. The 1841-0 in MS67 is undoubtedly the same one Jim Halperin's NERCG auctioned back in 1980 for over $40,000. It was pure white back then and seems to have added some toning since.
Motley Crue indeed! What's with the SP66 grade on the 1891-O? Branch Mint Proof?
Motley Crue indeed! What's with the SP66 grade on the 1891-O? Branch Mint Proof?
Something special. Supposedly to mark resumption of coinage at the New Orleans mint following a 31 year gap. The coin was graded SP65 in 2008 fetching $161K. It brought 20% less in Aug 2013 as a SP66 (some whales left the market + no sticker). The James Stack superb MS gem 91-o brought a stiff $5250 back in 1975....almost the same price as his superb 1901-s 25c, that last auctioned for around $1/4 MILL! PCGS has graded a MS67 1891-o 25c which is possibly that same coin.
The one monster "O" mint I have not seen reappear over the years was the superb toned gem 1842-0 large O that Joe Flynn had back around 1975 (asking price of $3K as I recall). In checking some of the estimates of total pieces extant on coinfacts, I couldn't believe how far off so many of the estimates. Check out the #'s for the 42-0 sd, 49-0, 51-0, 52-0, 58-s, 59-s, 60-s, 64-s, 70-cc, 71-s, and 72-s! Many numbers seem to default to 400 extant. But, that's seed material for a future thread.
Cheers, RickO
Pretty safe to say that these two 58-0 and 67-s quarters will be in PCGS holders for many years to come.
Do you really think that the graders think like that? Or that PCGS management would pay attention to something - short of a famous rarity like an 1804 Dollar - and push the graders to grade something higher, or bump the grade on their own? I don't.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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Do you really think that the graders think like that? Or that PCGS management would pay attention to something - short of a famous rarity like an 1804 Dollar - and push the graders to grade something higher, or bump the grade on their own? I don't.
Yes. The TPG thought process is altered when looking at an NGC coin submitted for cross. No one is pushing anyone to grade them higher.....in fact, just the opposite imo. The majority of the time the "push" is to keep them in the NGC holder they arrived in. For gem 19th century bust, seated, and Barber type, an NGC coin has to wow them to get a cross.