What Would You Do? Customer Returns Two Coins for Refund, But Switched Coins with Counterfeits? An
numisma
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I sold (2) 2015 One Oz Silver Pandas on eBay. The buyer sent me a strange message after receiving them, by telling me all the reasons that they are fake. I knew that they are genuine, and just assumed that either, 1) he's trying to scam me, or 2) he's an unknowledgeable collector.
Well, the coins finally arrived today, and when I opened the package I just shook my head. He returned two silver plated copper counterfeits. You know, the kind that you buy online for a few dollars? These things are a joke.
So, what would you do in this situation. Of course the buyer is going to claim that I switched the coins, and it will be my word against him. I ship and receive packages under surveillance camera, but the buyer could say that it was switched outside before it hit our camera.
Well, the coins finally arrived today, and when I opened the package I just shook my head. He returned two silver plated copper counterfeits. You know, the kind that you buy online for a few dollars? These things are a joke.
So, what would you do in this situation. Of course the buyer is going to claim that I switched the coins, and it will be my word against him. I ship and receive packages under surveillance camera, but the buyer could say that it was switched outside before it hit our camera.
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Did the eBay scammer file a return request that forced you to cover return shipping(eBay ship label), or did they just ship back at their expense ?
Would it be the member with a 124 FB rating ? What does their feedback history indicate as a general profile ?
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
If you kept the mailing receipt from the original shipment to the scammer, you have the weight of that package. Reconstructing the package with the counterfeits and the same exact material you used to ship should show a different weight. Easy enough to use as proof to the USPS that the eBay customer used the USPS to commit fraud. This would be reportable to Law Enforcement in the eBay buyer's locale, as well as the Postal Inspector's Division. Not sure what it will take to convince PayPig of the fraud.
You are correct about the weight, and I have successfully used that in the past. However, the weight difference between the genuine coins and the counterfeits are too close to be usable as evidence due to the variances in package size/material.
If you kept the mailing receipt from the original shipment to the scammer, you have the weight of that package. Reconstructing the package with the counterfeits and the same exact material you used to ship should show a different weight. Easy enough to use as proof to the USPS that the eBay customer used the USPS to commit fraud. This would be reportable to Law Enforcement in the eBay buyer's locale, as well as the Postal Inspector's Division. Not sure what it will take to convince PayPig of the fraud.
You are correct about the weight, and I have successfully used that in the past. However, the weight difference between the genuine coins and the counterfeits are too close to be usable as evidence due to the variances in package size/material.
Yea, the weight of the recent 2014 Proof Silver Eagle counterfeit was not off by that much. Chinese steel proves to be too much silver once again.
If you kept the mailing receipt from the original shipment to the scammer, you have the weight of that package. Reconstructing the package with the counterfeits and the same exact material you used to ship should show a different weight. Easy enough to use as proof to the USPS that the eBay customer used the USPS to commit fraud. This would be reportable to Law Enforcement in the eBay buyer's locale, as well as the Postal Inspector's Division. Not sure what it will take to convince PayPig of the fraud.
You are correct about the weight, and I have successfully used that in the past. However, the weight difference between the genuine coins and the counterfeits are too close to be usable as evidence due to the variances in package size/material.
If you know what material You originally used, then recreate the package with the counterfeits. I'll bet the weight varies considerably from your original package that contained the solid silver coins. The specific gravity of silver and silver plated copper should be diverse enough to bear this out., especially if the counterfeits are same dimension by thickness and diameter.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
You have his address.
Send him 6 yards of pea gravel (just tell the driver to dump it in the driveway).
Easy game.
Seriously, take it up with E-Bay but keep his info and just pray he places a second order.
if all you say is true, post the user id so those that sell these type items can block the person if they so desire.
take pictures of new items, reference ebay listing. they will look at your account and the buyers, and i'm willing to bet your account has a much better/legitimate history.
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WHAT?
Customers are returning counterfeits to sellers for genuine coins?
You are pulling my lariat.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
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if all you say is true, post the user id so those that sell these type items can block the person if they so desire.
Waiting?
I asked eBay to check the buyer's history and to tell me how many times he has asked to return similar items, but they would not tell me. I am sure he has done this to others, and looking at his feedback, he only buys from coin dealers.
Now if I try to raise a stink with the buyer, he will leave a negative. At this point I really do not care. I will take it. This is a small deal in terms of dollars, but I am taking it personally since it is such an egregious scam.
My Ebay Store
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
They told me that since I accepted the return (I offer 14 day returns and I pay the return shipping), I agreed with them that the coins I sold were fake. Can you believe it?
Sounds like ebay, links needed
You are going to love this one: So I call eBay to explain the situation. They told me that since I accepted the return (I offer 14 day returns and I pay the return shipping), I agreed with them that the coins I sold were fake. Can you believe it? I tried to explain to the eBay rep that counterfeit Pandas are sold on eBay daily, and that it is too easy for a crook to buy some counterfeits, then buy some genuine coins, and then return the fakes to the legitimate seller. The response was that I should work it out with the buyer.
I asked eBay to check the buyer's history and to tell me how many times he has asked to return similar items, but they would not tell me. I am sure he has done this to others, and looking at his feedback, he only buys from coin dealers.
Now if I try to raise a stink with the buyer, he will leave a negative. At this point I really do not care. I will take it. This is a small deal in terms of dollars, but I am taking it personally since it is such an egregious scam.
CALL THE POLICE. Seriously. This is fraud.
Yes, I do plan to make the buyer's name public knowledge here soon. I will also post links and pictures.
Latin American Collection
Also Report the Buyer through that link.
I'd do those 2 things first and then call eBay back and see if you can get a better rep. Keep going up the ladder until you find a reasonable person.
CALL THE POLICE. Seriously. This is fraud.
Agree. Sure, you may not get much satisfaction. But their local police might call/visit and put the fear into them. And at the very least, you would either be starting, or adding to, a file on these clowns.
Ebay really SHOULD be a better partner in figuring this all out. If this is not the first issue with these buyers, (and I doubt it is...not terribly profitable as a one-off scam), then Ebay should be all over it....
Best of luck
And here are pictures of what I received in the mail today. Beyond being poor quality counterfeits, they are not even silver. I have a special machine (Precious Metal Verifier) to test bullion coins, and these failed miserably.
Edited to fix link
I will post a side-by-side comparison photo tomorrow to show the blatant differences.
Good luck with eBay Customer Service in Asia!
You could call PayPal instead and speak to someone in USA.
I'd report the buyer to your Postal Inspector.
Good luck with eBay Customer Service in Asia!
You could call PayPal instead and speak to someone in USA.
I have already explained to the buyer that I would be contacting the Postal Inspector about this, and that he better have better evidence that my video footage and weight data.
The eBay CS rep was indeed in Asia. I will try again on Monday morning and escalate the matter much higher.
Regarding PayPal, their CS reps are in the U.S., but I am not too happy with them either. They froze my account last month and I still do not have access to my funds. Now close to $16,000 and growing. They let the money go into the account, but I cannot take anything out while they are in the process of reviewing my business licenses and other financial documents to be sure that I am not a terrorist. I am not kidding either. That's what is happening.
Call the postal inspector and/or email - ask to open a postal fraud case, because the person is using the postal system as the travel venue.
In fact......do BOTH!
Postal Fraud requires a minimum of $25,000 and multiple victims before they investigate anything. Anything less is just a business dispute.
It looks like he's stocking up on more counterfeits
Category No. of Bids Seller
Coins & Paper Money : Asia 1 Seller 1 : 1h
Coins & Paper Money : Asia 1 Seller 1 : 2 8h
Between this and the ridicules PayPal BS, I don't know how you keep your sanity.
I understand that the Panda situation is not a big money deal but returning fakes right to your doorstep feels aggressive.
That would infuriate me as well.
Keep your chin up. We're behind you.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
You are going to love this one: So I call eBay to explain the situation. They told me that since I accepted the return (I offer 14 day returns and I pay the return shipping), I agreed with them that the coins I sold were fake. Can you believe it? I tried to explain to the eBay rep that counterfeit Pandas are sold on eBay daily, and that it is too easy for a crook to buy some counterfeits, then buy some genuine coins, and then return the fakes to the legitimate seller. The response was that I should work it out with the buyer.
I asked eBay to check the buyer's history and to tell me how many times he has asked to return similar items, but they would not tell me. I am sure he has done this to others, and looking at his feedback, he only buys from coin dealers.
Now if I try to raise a stink with the buyer, he will leave a negative. At this point I really do not care. I will take it. This is a small deal in terms of dollars, but I am taking it personally since it is such an egregious scam.
EBay says "you accepted the return". First, eBay forces sellers to accept returns. Secondly, until you opened the package, how would you know what he sent back?
And, once you opened the package, eBay considers that "accepting the return"?
Somehow, eBay logic doesn't make sense, as their statement "you accepted the return" is incredibly uninformed, illogical, and stupid.
Suggest you call eBay again and pursue until you find some supervisor with common sense.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
You should also have the perps phone number. Should be fun to call at 3:00 a.m. to ask when they will send the real coins back.
Heck, just post his name, address and phone number on here.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I understand that the Panda situation is not a big money deal but returning fakes right to your doorstep feels aggressive.
Yep. My reasoning for not letting him get away with this is that I think he may be testing the waters. What's next? Will he start buying 1 oz gold Pandas and return counterfeits? Thanks for your words of support, btw.
It looks like he's stocking up on more counterfeits
Category No. of Bids Seller
Coins & Paper Money : Asia 1 Seller 1 : 1h
Coins & Paper Money : Asia 1 Seller 1 : 2 8h
Wow! Nice catch TopographicOcean. This will be great info to share with eBay.
A year ago I regularly read the Ebay forums on their site where people share their (usually) bad experiences on Ebay. A seller had sold a $600 jacket that the buyer returned. But the return package had an old beat-up sweatshirt that had roughly the same weight. The seller was out the jacket as Ebay refunded the $600 as soon as the return tracking showed it had arrived. The seller was frustrated as heck and stuck with Ebay viewing it as Buyer's word vs. Seller's word in which they always side with the buyer.
I think the best you can do is the following:
1. Take it up the Ebay chain of command as much as possible. There's a chance you find someone with Ebay who's sympathetic. But if the person is doing this to other people, then Ebay should be smart enough to see a pattern eventually.
2. File a police report. It probably won't do anything, but there's always a chance the person gets contacted.
3. Give us the person's Ebay id, name, address and phone number.
Unfortunately, it's easy to scam purchases in Ebay. Ebay has a lot of good things about it, but there's an element of Russian roulette in that a scam can hit you.
Generally I think that people who collect coins are honest people. I think there are other categories on Ebay that are much more prone to scams.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
When I get returns, sometimes I take my camera and open in front of postal employee to have a witness if something amiss.
Was the reason for return because it was counterfeit?
Out the scumbag here please.
And, I forgot to add, send your coins in sealed flips, and indicate that there will be no returns if the coins are removed from the original holders, or the holders are tampered with.
That's great advice. I do have the sealer and the flips. I used to do that back in the day. At least it might be a deterrent. Of course these scammers will probably just go out and buy the sealing machine and flips to enhance the fraud scheme.
Scammers suck. I like the gravel in the driveway idea
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
sign your flips.
Scammers suck. I like the gravel in the driveway idea
Why not have some horse manure delivered in the driveway?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
I understand that the Panda situation is not a big money deal but returning fakes right to your doorstep feels aggressive.
Yep. My reasoning for not letting him get away with this is that I think he may be testing the waters. What's next? Will he start buying 1 oz gold Pandas and return counterfeits? Thanks for your words of support, btw.
It looks like he's stocking up on more counterfeits
Category No. of Bids Seller
Coins & Paper Money : Asia 1 Seller 1 : 1h
Coins & Paper Money : Asia 1 Seller 1 : 2 8h
Wow! Nice catch TopographicOcean. This will be great info to share with eBay.
I would definitely take a screenshot of that page on ebay so that they can't say it's been edited, and can't be taken down.
My Ebay Store
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
If you list the panda's in a bullion category you do not have to offer a return in order to keep your seller discount. Bullion is exempt from this requirement.
Velocity, Not Valuation Defines A Bubble.
Forget about it and close your eBay account. Let them know why...
This.
I had a much worse fraud case ($2000) where the seller never even sent the item. How could they as they never owned the item. They just copied another dealer's auction from a few months earlier and tried to "sell" a coin they didn't possess. They had my funds. Ebay did a cursory investigation and said there was nothing to all of it. They stopped returning my phone calls and emails. Local USPS postmaster did nothing except to tell me to file a claim on the internet. US Internet Financial Crimes division did nothing. In fact I never once got a reply from them after posting the details of my case. The perp's local law enforcement did nothing and really didn't want to be bothered after I submitted a police report from my own town. The chief of police stopped returning my phone calls. No one really cares about such crimes unless they are huge dollar amounts or occur dozens of times, and especially if the seller and buyer are a thousand miles apart. They figure the cost of their services can best be spent elsewhere....not tracking down "collector crimes" on Fleabay.
Ebay won't care one lick if you close out your account. But, you'll feel better. If you plan to continue you should plan on taking film of every package you send out where it's sealed in front of a postal inspector. Or at least on those you won't mind getting $0 for. I wouldn't be surprised if your perp tries to sue in civil court for pain and suffering.