Pouge Auction Question

Gazes · January 13, 2016 9:40AM

The 5 installments of the Pogue auction have been declared by some as the greatest collection ever. Certainly if not the bestt, it is one of the best. Not all the coins are 6 figure or more coins.

How comfortable would you be bidding on a coin without seeing it first hand or having a rep view it first ? I asked this question in general before but feel this auction to be unique. On one hand you have one of the pickiest collectors and you are piggy backing off his acquisitions. Further the catalogue seems expertly described. Is it of lesser importance in this auction to view the coin if it is one you want ? On the other hand, even the less expensive coins are a large investment (10,000+) and maybe there are some overrated coins in the collection. Thoughts? Thanks

BryceM · January 13, 2016 9:45AM

I'm puzzled by anyone who wants to bid on a coin without seeing it or having a trusted agent see it first.

There are overrated coins in every collection and everyone has different tastes/dislikes.

DaveWcoins · January 13, 2016 9:53AM

In my opinion, it would be a big mistake.

I have been doing this for several decades, and I have been to every major auction during that period.

Every collection has some "iffy" coins in it. Every one. And that includes the Pogue collection, as fine as that collection is.

And guess what? The folks who bid without seeing the coins (or having an experienced, trusted agent look at them) are the ones that end up with the off-quality coins.

When I bid in European auctions I happily pay a dealer 5% of the total price if I cannot view them. That is the best money I spend all year.

jdimmick · January 13, 2016 10:21AM

I have to agree with Dave W,

I have not won any of the pogue coins yet, as the ones I want were out of my reach, But I did view a lot of them while they were on display in both sales. And even though this is for the most part a killer collection and money certainly wasn't an issue. There are some for whatever reason are not spectacular.

I can comment on the first sale because its long gone, but I was interested in obtaining one of the 1804 DImes, the two nicer went for astronomical $ , the 3rd one I actually could have bought, but didn't like the coin at all. The price compared to the other two cemented my thoughts as well.

RichieURich · January 13, 2016 10:36AM

I agree with the responses so far. I was hired by a client to look at quite a few coins in the first Pogue sale. It turned out that one of the highest graded coins was one I recommended he NOT consider buying, as I believed a lower graded coin of the same issue was much nicer. When my client was able to see the coins in hand, he agreed with my assessment of those two coins. In my and my client's opinion, someone who bought that coin because of the high grade and the sale in which it was included, would be disappointed.

I've used this example before, so go onto the next post if you've heard it before. I was interested in a very nice AU coin in an auction, and based on the online picture, I figured the coin was worth about $4,000. But when I went to lot viewing, I was surprised by the coin, as it didn't look anything like its online picture. I even had to check to see that it was the same lot. I figured the coin was actually worth about $500. Guess what, it sold for about $4,000 all in, and I am guessing the buyer hadn't seen the coin in hand, nor had a representative do so. So the buyer lost $3,500 by not having auction representation, which at 5% on this coin would have cost about $200.

Ronyahski · January 13, 2016 10:45AM

This auction is awesome, but not unique. No different than the other major collections sold off. You have to like what you buy, and there is no way of knowing that without first seeing it.

Nic · January 13, 2016 10:51AM

Originally posted by: Ronyahski

This auction is awesome, but not unique. No different than the other major collections sold off. You have to like what you buy, and there is no way of knowing that without first seeing it.

This

Wabbit2313 · January 13, 2016 11:11AM

I figured the coin was actually worth about $500. Guess what, it sold for about $4,000 all in, and I am guessing the buyer hadn't seen the coin in hand, nor had a representative do so. So the buyer lost $3,500 by not having auction representation, which at 5% on this coin would have cost about $200.

Not sure how the buyer lost $3500? He would if he sold it for $500. Also, one person's opinion of value is not everyone's. There was obviously someone else bidding right under him.

david3142 · January 13, 2016 11:53AM

You are basically guaranteed to get a great coin, but that doesn't mean you'll get a great value. Also, some of the coins may not be to your personal liking. They could also be overgraded or pushed up by overzealous bidders. As everyone else has said, it's important o see the coins in hand. The exception to this would be something like the 1822 $5 or the 1804 dollars. Being solid for the grade doesn't really matter at that point.

TopographicOceans · January 13, 2016 2:19PM

I bid on some of the low hanging fruit, and some sold for a few thousand, but I didn't win any

I was really bidding on the pedigree but the pictures of the coins looked nice in the catalog.

This wasn't one that I bid on.
I was at Long Beach last year and was talking with the guy from SB while they were taking the coins out of the display case and he showed me a couple close up.

roadrunner · January 13, 2016 2:48PM

Originally posted by: Wabbit2313

I figured the coin was actually worth about $500. Guess what, it sold for about $4,000 all in, and I am guessing the buyer hadn't seen the coin in hand, nor had a representative do so. So the buyer lost $3,500 by not having auction representation, which at 5% on this coin would have cost about $200.

Not sure how the buyer lost $3500? He would if he sold it for $500. Also, one person's opinion of value is not everyone's. There was obviously someone else bidding right under him.

If you did a poll of how many of those "under-bidders" had little interest in the higher bidder's coin directly after the sale, I think you'd be surprised. I was involved in one coin a few years back that fetched low 5 figures at auction (a pop 1 finest graded). The day after the sale you couldn't give that coin away for 40% of the auction price. Where was the under-bidder? Was there even a real under-bidder? A couple months later the coin was back up for sale and fetched 33% of the previous record price...in a rising market no less. The issue was that the coin was not nice for the grade or even the next grade lower. Under-bidder euphoria is a fleeting thing and you can't rely on it.

RichieURich · January 13, 2016 2:51PM

Originally posted by: Wabbit2313

I figured the coin was actually worth about $500. Guess what, it sold for about $4,000 all in, and I am guessing the buyer hadn't seen the coin in hand, nor had a representative do so. So the buyer lost $3,500 by not having auction representation, which at 5% on this coin would have cost about $200.

Not sure how the buyer lost $3500? He would if he sold it for $500. Also, one person's opinion of value is not everyone's. There was obviously someone else bidding right under him.

You are correct in that I am not the sole determiner of value. My point was, the coin in hand was much lower quality than indicated by the online picture. My guess is that the two or more bidders who took it up to $4,000 had not seen the coin in hand. My further guess is that the people who saw it in hand significantly reduced their bids or decided to not bid on that coin (like I did). Of course, everyone has a different opinion, and it is possible that the buyer actually likes the coin.

TopographicOceans · January 13, 2016 3:34PM

Originally posted by: RichieURich

Originally posted by: Wabbit2313

I figured the coin was actually worth about $500. Guess what, it sold for about $4,000 all in, and I am guessing the buyer hadn't seen the coin in hand, nor had a representative do so. So the buyer lost $3,500 by not having auction representation, which at 5% on this coin would have cost about $200.

Not sure how the buyer lost $3500? He would if he sold it for $500. Also, one person's opinion of value is not everyone's. There was obviously someone else bidding right under him.

You are correct in that I am not the sole determiner of value. My point was, the coin in hand was much lower quality than indicated by the online picture. My guess is that the two or more bidders who took it up to $4,000 had not seen the coin in hand. My further guess is that the people who saw it in hand significantly reduced their bids or decided to not bid on that coin (like I did). Of course, everyone has a different opinion, and it is possible that the buyer actually likes the coin.

The thing about winning an auction is it means no one else is willing to pay more.

But that can be a good thing, depending on the audience. Dealers and flippers make their money that way.

I've made the (false) assumption that a coin I "win" at auction should have a market value on one bid increment.
But when it is time to sell, the audience is different and any other underbidders who had an interest at the time are no longer in the new audience.

BillJones · January 14, 2016 4:30AM

The 5 installments of the Pogue auction have been declared by some as the greatest collection ever.

The Louis Eliasberg Collection was head and shoulders above Pogue. At the time of the sale that collection included virtually every coin listed in The Red Book, and some of his coins were among the finest known. The Eliasberg Collection was far superior in terms of depth and completeness. Eliasberg had the 1870-S Three Dollar gold which is unique and one of the three known 1822 half eagles. I am not aware that the Pogue collection as coins like that.

david3142 · January 14, 2016 4:34AM

I'm surprised you didn't know that Pogue has the 1822 half eagle (and two 1804 dollars!). While his collection is nowhere near as complete across the whole spectrum of US coins, he does have exceptionally high quality overall.

BillJones · January 14, 2016 5:02AM

Originally posted by: david3142
I'm surprised you didn't know that Pogue has the 1822 half eagle (and two 1804 dollars!). While his collection is nowhere near as complete across the whole spectrum of US coins, he does have exceptionally high quality overall.

I thought that two of the 1822 half eagles were impounded in museums and that the Eliasberg coin was only one in a collector's hands. Does Pugue have the Eliasberg coin?

david3142 · January 14, 2016 5:28AM

Yep. The other two are in the Smithsonian.

DeliaBug · January 17, 2016 3:32PM

There is a book about this coin that QDB wrote. One of my favorite topics for books are of single coins. Even if one is familiar with the story of this, it's a good read.

Analyst · February 21, 2016 8:49AM

Mr. Jones: The Louis Eliasberg Collection was head and shoulders above Pogue. At the time of the sale that collection included virtually every coin listed in The Red Book, and some of his coins were among the finest known. The Eliasberg Collection was far superior in terms of depth and completeness.

Yes, I agree; the Eliasberg Collection is the all-time finest collection of classic (pre-1934) U.S. coins. There is no doubt about it. Even so, the comparison is unfair. The Pogues specialized in pre-1840 U.S. coins. Until Brent added a few type coins decades after the collection began, there was not any intention to acquire nickels, Liberty Seated coins, Double Eagles or any of the other series beginning after 1835. This is not a fair comparison, unless I am mis-interpreting Mr. Jones. Is Bill saying that the Eliasberg pre-1840 coins were better than the Pogue pre-1840 coins?

A theory, at this point, is that the Pogue pre-1840 coins are better overall than the Eliasberg pre-1840 coins, though I would like to view all of the Pogue Collection before drawing a conclusion. Such a comparison is less difficult than might would otherwise be the case because many Eliasberg coins ended up in the Pogue Collection! The Pogues love the Eliasberg pedigree. Also, it is relevant to the posts in this thread that the Pogues have the Eliasberg 1854-S half eagle!

I conclude, after much research, that the Pogues assembled the all-time greatest set of Capped Bust quarters ever to be sold at public auction, better than those of Eliasberg!

The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 5: 1820 Capped Bust Quarters

Kaselitz Coin Latest of Several Gem 1831 Capped Bust Quarters to Emerge Recently

Does anyone doubt that the Pogues assembled the all-time best group of pre-1800 half dollars? These are much better than the Eliasberg pre-1800 halves!

The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 1: Finest 1796 –97 Draped Bust Half Dollar

Finest Known 1794 Half Dollar, PCGS graded MS-64

Analyst · February 24, 2016 7:06AM

Above, I responded to points put forth by Mr. Jones, which I regard as important. I did not address to the main topic of the thread because I am hoping that the members of this forum already know that no one should rely entirely upon the certification of a coin for all purposes. There are wholesalers who, as a full-time occupation, submit the same coins over and over again to grading services. Clearly, there are other factors to take into consideration in addition to a coin's current certified grade.

Bryce: There are overrated coins in every collection and everyone has different tastes/dislikes.

Dave W. : Every collection has some "iffy" coins in it. Every one. And that includes the Pogue collection, as fine as that collection is. ... The folks who bid without seeing the coins, or having an experienced, trusted agent look at them, are the ones that end up with the off-quality coins. ... When I bid in European auctions I happily pay a dealer 5% of the total price if I cannot view them. That is the best money I spend all year.

Yes, a point that should be emphasized is that a collector should have an expert view coins even if the collector views them himself. In many cases, a coin has to be tilted at various angles for a couple of minutes by an expert before problems become discernible.

All the greatest collections in the history of coin collecting had a few awful coins. This is not a criticism of the Pogue Collection. This is just a reality in the culture of coin collecting.

Again, it may very well be true that the Pogue Collection is all-time greatest collection of pre-1840 U.S. coins to ever be sold at public auction. I would like to do further research before putting forth a theory along such a line. For U.S. coins from 1793 to the late 1830s, is the Pogue Collection clearly better than those of Mickley, Parmelee, Stickney, Earle, Norweb, Garrett and James A. Stack? I do not have the contents of all those collections memorized and it would require much research to estimate the quality of many of the coins included therein? Has anyone been researching this matter in depth?

The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 4: 18th Century Rarities Lead First Auction

insightful10@gmail.com

Elcontador · February 24, 2016 7:28AM

Originally posted by: Gazes
The 5 installments of the Pogue auction have been declared by some as the greatest collection ever. Certainly if not the bestt, it is one of the best. Not all the coins are 6 figure or more coins.

How comfortable would you be bidding on a coin without seeing it first hand or having a rep view it first ? I asked this question in general before but feel this auction to be unique. On one hand you have one of the pickiest collectors and you are piggy backing off his acquisitions. Further the catalogue seems expertly described. Is it of lesser importance in this auction to view the coin if it is one you want ? On the other hand, even the less expensive coins are a large investment (10,000+) and maybe there are some overrated coins in the collection. Thoughts? Thanks

If the coin's over $100, at a minimum, someone knows more than I do whom I trust looks at it for me. Otherwise, I'm not interested. I've been collecting for over 50 years and have NEVER bought a questionable coin this way.

If you want a financial equivalent of losing a body part, bid on a coin sight unseen. Remember, there's no return privilege. Bryce said it more nicely than I did in his comment.

TopographicOceans · February 24, 2016 11:26AM

Buy the Pedigree and not the coin

MrEureka · February 24, 2016 11:51AM

Even if it's always better to view a coin in person, yes, it's true that some things can make it safer to bid blind. The fact that a coin was selected by Pogue does matter. The fact that the images are superb does matter. The fact that PCGS graded the coins does help. Regardless, I'd always find a way to view major items in person.

BTW, with respect to Pogue, keep in mind that many of these coins were purchased raw. So even though you see a coin in a 67 holder, that doesn't mean that Pogue thinks it's a 67.

MrEureka · February 24, 2016 12:04PM

All the greatest collections in the history of coin collecting had a few awful coins. This is not a criticism of the Pogue Collection. This is just a reality in the culture of coin collecting.

Depends, in part, how you define "great". Is TDN's set of Seated Dollars one of the greatest collections? In many ways, it is. And how many awful coins are in that set?

And was the Eliasberg collection really all that great? I mean, without the Clapp coins, what would the collection have looked like?

Analyst · February 28, 2016 9:46AM

Earlier statement, posted above: All the greatest collections in the history of coin collecting had a few awful coins. This is not a criticism of the Pogue Collection. This is just a reality in the culture of coin collecting.

Mr. Eureka: Depends, in part, how you define "great". Is TDN's set of Seated Dollars one of the greatest collections? In many ways, it is. And how many awful coins are in that set?

Yes, Mr. Eureka is right that I should have been clearer. I apologize to Mr. Eureka and to TDN.

I was referring to epic collections that include hundreds of classic U.S. coins and include coins of multiple series. Eliasberg, Norweb Family, James A. Stack, Gardner, Garrett Family, Dunham, A*****er, Earle, Stickney, Parmelee and others are in this league. I was not referring to sets of individual series.

If the definition of 'great' at dictionary.com is considered, and I find it to be fair, then the first two definitions relate to size. When I think of the great collections of all time, size and importance along with quality and completeness are considered. A set of Liberty Seated Dollars is small.

Indisputably, TDN formed the all-time best set of Liberty Seated Dollars and Dr. Duckor formed the all-time best set of Barber Half Dollars. I had thought of the grand collections as being in a separate category. When a collector or collecting family seeks to complete many series, including multiple denominations, quality control becomes much more difficult and time becomes more of a factor.

Also, TDN is fortunate that the Norweb, JAS and Eliasberg 1870-S dollars all become available during the period from 1988 to 1996. Before 1988, none of these had been 'on the market' since the 1950s! If TDN was not so lucky, he might have had to settle for a problematic 1870-S, perhaps even an awful one.

Phenomenal Excitement for an 1870-S dollar

Shireman Finest Known Intact Set of Gem Barber Half Dollars To Be Auctioned in 01/16

garrynot · February 28, 2016 8:59PM

As an aside. I was glad to see that the Pogue Collction had some Bass coins. The photography in the Pogue catalogues was superb. Although the Harry Bass Sylloge is an interesting book, the photos in there are very disappointing.

grip · February 28, 2016 10:14PM

Originally posted by: Nic

Originally posted by: Ronyahski
This auction is awesome, but not unique. No different than the other major collections sold off. You have to like what you buy, and there is no way of knowing that without first seeing it.

This

1+

TwoSides2aCoin · February 28, 2016 11:39PM

Too rich for me to rogue through. Although, just responding here eliminates my need for rouge, on this platform and at this level.

Even so, I'd be most comfortable LQQKING andd bidding. Let's bar coming up with the money.

It's paying that would cause me most problems. The enjoyment derived in amassing the collection was awesome, I suppose.
Not sure about the attention garnered at Auction time or subsequent. Believing our (public , at large) unscrupulous view of the collection as a whole is actually kind of a waste of time.

That's why it's called a "LOT". That lot, I'll never pick apart or from.

shorecoll · February 28, 2016 11:51PM

Agreeing with Analyst, people who claim this or that is the greatest ever in numismatics, tend to have short memories.

Reading the Newman biography, you could have had a decent shot at a "greatest ever" collection, with Col. Green's dups.

Pouge Auction Question

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