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Is the grading game hurting coin collecting or helping it?
291fifth
Posts: 25,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
"Crackout"; "+"; "OGH"; "Fatty"; "Reconsideration"; "Rattler"; "Registry"; "Sticker"; "Gold Bean"; "Star", and on and on. Does this kind of thing inspire you to collect more or cause you to rethink your rationale for collecting and possibly even discontinue collecting?
All glory is fleeting.
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Ultimately its the coin inside that counts
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
It's healthy to consider ones rationale from time to time. I'm more burned out by coins that have been messed with. AT, tooled, dipped out, puttied, oiled, and on and on. Basically human impairment that the TPGs try to bounce out of holders. Plenty get through, and the plastic type gets nauseating to me at times, but I'll say it's mostly worth it in the end to deal with the hassle.
it allows for more opportunities- so I think that is a plus.
Ultimately its the coin inside that counts
It depends on how one counts. The game allows dealers more opportunities to squeeze more money out of their inventories by getting upgrades. However, once a coin is 'maxed out' in terms of its grade/stickers, then its liquidity begins to decline. Additionally, coins that obtain upgrades that bump them into the next higher grade, but are perceived to be 'C' coins at the new grade, can have greater liquidity problems. The current grading game has fueled the bifurcation in the coin market as a whole. A coin must be in the right plastic, with the right sticker, and look high-end for the grade in order for dealers to talk it up. What about the coins that don't fit the bill (likely the majority of the graded coins at this time)? This is not an indicator of a healthy market. Most coin collectors will get burned by this.
While the coin inside a slab should be what counts, for many (unsophisticated) buyers what will count is whatever the slab insert says.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
To be honest, I find myself playing the game. Not because I want to, but because I want to most out of my collection and feel left in the dust when an inferior coin is upgraded and surpasses my coin unless I play the game. The same goes for the Stickering
Example: A 66 in a 65 holder is unlikely to bring much of a premium. A 65 with a gold CAC will bring 66-67 money. A 66 with green CAC will bring strong 66 money. These 3 examples can be the same coin. The prices of each will differ. With the high rate of sight unseen purchases or photo purchases, this is very much the case.
Think of this: if TPGs go to a decimal scale, your old 65 may be inferior to a new 65.9 when you go to sell one day. This is for a similar coin (please exclude monster toning, etc)
The benefit of all of this is safer collecting and better description of coins. BUT, this might quickly burn out any newcomers to the hobby. I just remember the look on my dad's face when I went over rattlers, OGH, CAC gold, CAC green, AT, etc etc. He couldn't believe all the red tape.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I'll still buy something slabbed but only if I feel it's worth the same in or out of the holder.
For generics (e.g., 1881-S Morgan dollars or 1924 Saints), I MIGHT be inclined to believe such grades (after a few glasses of wine). But not where less common coins are concerned.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
… and time stands still for no one. So it rolls on.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I could be wrong but my perception and personal experience is that as a Numismatist/collector progresses in the Hobby all the stuff listed by the OP becomes less important.
The grading game issue will rear its ugly head whenever a collector tries to sell something (not just buy), so even advanced collectors are not immune from the consequences of what is going on.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
me. Could be condition, rarity, design, metal or year..... I do not belittle those who like holders,
stickers, plus marks or provenance...that is up to the individual collector. I just have fun...
Cheers, RickO
I get tired of every "rattle holder" with a green CAC sticker I see selling for the double the usual price. I come to the conclusion that bidding on these coins is a waste of time. There is a cult of collectors or investors who are obsessed with them for whatever reason.
A big plus 1.
I have decided to start a collection of capped bust half dollars. They are going to end up in a capitol plastic or custom book or similar but not in slabs.
I can not stand all the rah rah that ends up on slabs nowadays. Some coins need the slabs and stickers and others do not.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
and a cobra may do the same but I don't have to stay and be bitten. most collectors and most of the members here are overly enamored with everything the OP listed and are likewise susceptible to the "venom" of the bite those things deliver. a test might be to pay attention to what everyone posts pictures of and almost always the holder is shown. I have more fun collecting like RickO where the focus is on the coin.
+1
Regardless, barring a revolution, it is here to stay.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
It allows easier entry to higher priced coins, which is essentially the same thing as saying it lowers the bar to participation within a certain segment of the hobby-industry.
Regardless, barring a revolution, it is here to stay.
I agree, and this type of grading game has been steadily creeping into the world of early coppers, where transactions involving raw coins have been the norm.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
it's interesting to note that every term used by the OP is directly tied to increasing the value or sale price of a coin.
None of the terms cited by the OP can force a person to buy a coin.
So you don't remember the days of, buy as AU and sell as BU/MS?
Of course I do. Truth be known, the truth doesn't change.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Neither helping nor hurting, inho. It's just a facet that exists.
I completly agree with what BAJJERFAN said:
"If as a collector you are satisfied with just having a decent example of a coin instead of the best example, then it probably doesn't affect you a whole lot........"
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Before providing an answer, think about the entire spectrum of coin collecting-
I believe grading is a small benefit to the individual collector and a huge benefit to the hobby but it is probably quite detrimental to moderns. It protects buyers and thereby secures the market but it is harmful to things that are outside the status quo. There is a perception that if a modern isn't a pop top then it has no value; that it is uncollectible.
Probably things can still change but it will take more time for attitudes to change.
If you are knowledgeable; you can use the system to your advantage and come out ahead buying the better stuff.
If you aren't, you might lose big....as with anything in life.
The TPGS are a useful tool for me and nothing more.
I don't rely solely upon them, as I must have the final say when I buy.
Some guys like to pay premiums for old slabs. That's cool. Let them have their fun, I say.
If I see a cool old slab for a slight premium; I'll buy it but I won't pay stupid money just for the plastic no matter how rare or nostalgic.
An equally solid coin in a newer holder; I will just as quickly pay up for.
The coins are the most important thing to me and NOT all the other bells and whistles. Just sayin'.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Please send me all the slabbed MS65 bust, barber, and seated coins you have that are really 66 quality but priced at "not much of a premium." I'm always a buyer of those. When I saw those types of coins back in 2002-2004, I routinely paid 50-80% premiums for them if needed. Crack that same coin out and put it up at a major auction raw, and it will fetch very close to MS66 money. The Benson 1 sale in June 2002 had a number of MS65 seated coins that were 1-2 points under-graded by PCGS. They fetched 1-2 pts higher. The grades on the holder didn't deter those who thought they were a lot nicer. I bid the most on a MS66 half dime that was arguably a MS68. I bid MS67++ money and still didn't get the coin. There were no stickers back then either. That coin did end up in a 68 holder a month later.
The point is, a 66 coin in a 65 holder will bring a strong premium to the right buyers. There are always strong buyers for coins like this. I would agree that a 66 in a 65 holder is unlikely to bring much of a premium at your local B&M shop, or from 90% of the dealers or collectors out there. Thing is, the other 10% will determine the coin's true market value, not the ones who won't pay up for what it truly is.
"Crackout"; "+"; "OGH"; "Fatty"; "Reconsideration"; "Rattler"; "Registry"; "Sticker"; "Gold Bean"; "Star", and on and on. Does this kind of thing inspire you to collect more or cause you to rethink your rationale for collecting and possibly even discontinue collecting?
None of those things has anything to do with why I collect.
However, reading on this site has soured me to the whole collecting issue, due to slabs.
The "It was in an MS64 holder, and I got it bumped up 2 points", the "Crack out and resubmit 7 times to get the grade to pop upward" the whole concept of CAC, and so forth. It seems grading is not grading, but a lottery.
Instead of a Boolean state, the grade seems to be in the genre of 50 Shades of Grey, and all coins seem to have a Doppler Shift heading to MS70.
A basic linear regression shows that in the year 2145, probably in late June, the last coin will finally grade MS70. At that point, chaos theory states that the scale will explode, a new scale created, and the process starts all over again.
But the worst is the fake coins, fake slabs, "perfect fakes in perfect slabs" concept. How many Oh My Gosh, TGP graded XX number of $25K to 250K coins that are really fakes, and a major grading company is toast.
Anyone remember when silver was north of $40 a few years ago, it seemed everyone "knew" scads of people who got burned on fake bars, 100 ounce gold plated tungsten bars, etc.
Until the fake issue is resolved, I, sadly, am moving to the sideline.
In the words of the Prophet, Clint Eastwood, "A man has got to know his limitations."
"Crackout"; "+"; "OGH"; "Fatty"; "Reconsideration"; "Rattler"; "Registry"; "Sticker"; "Gold Bean"; "Star", and on and on. Does this kind of thing inspire you to collect more or cause you to rethink your rationale for collecting and possibly even discontinue collecting?
None of those things has anything to do with why I collect.
Me too, and I am extremely happy that I do not have to deal with all that shyt.