1964-D Peace Straight Talk
planonit
Posts: 525 ✭✭
I will say I have never actually meet or spoke to anybody who even hinted they had a genuine one or know anybody who did. I do read and here a lot of people who just seem to assume that a genuine one is out there but why? Has there really been any credible evidence out there? It has been FIFTY years and I personally have never seen anything more than "I know a guy who knows a guy who said in the 80s he had one."
Ever. I read a lot of things that are about as vague as can be.
I guess I am inviting trouble here but does anybody want to claim to have one or know the whereabouts of one. (I would obviously highly suggest making a 'burner account' to post this).
Ever. I read a lot of things that are about as vague as can be.
I guess I am inviting trouble here but does anybody want to claim to have one or know the whereabouts of one. (I would obviously highly suggest making a 'burner account' to post this).
I have plans....sometimes
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"Just because you were born on 3rd base doesn't mean you hit a triple"
I will say I have never actually meet or spoke to anybody who even hinted they had a genuine one or know anybody who did. I do read and here a lot of people who just seem to assume that a genuine one is out there but why? Has there really been any credible evidence out there? It has been FIFTY years and I personally have never seen anything more than "I know a guy who knows a guy who said in the 80s he had one."
Ever. I read a lot of things that are about as vague as can be.
I guess I am inviting trouble here but does anybody want to claim to have one or know the whereabouts of one. (I would obviously highly suggest making a 'burner account' to post this).
I'm of the opinion that zero exists. This opinion is based upon human nature and the genetic "need" to beat one's own chest if at all possible.
NOTE: There is not one single photograph of a genuine 1964-D Peace Dollar. Not even a single photograph of 1964-D Peace Dollars in the manufacturing process. This despite the fact that supposedly, 2 examples which had been sent out to the US Mint labs for assay were destroyed in the 70's.
NOTE: There are many. many different methods of producing and publishing a photograph without ANYBODY ever knowing where it originated from.
NOTE: The 1933 St Gaudens Double Eagle is probably the most famous of coins which you're NOT supposed to own and the US Government spends hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollar to recover any that surface, YET, in 2005. 10 surfaced.
NOTE: In 1974 the US Mint experimented with aluminum as a viable material for Lincoln cents by producing more than a million examples. Some were given out to the Congress people in charge of making the decision to switch. ALL were supposedly returned yet, a single example surfaced in 2001 and was subsequently graded by PCGS in 2005.
In 2014 a 1974-D example surfaced, was graded and put on the Auction block only to be pulled until Government Litigation could be responded to. Nobody even knew that examples had been produced with the Denver Mintmark! Talk about an illegal piece yet, the courts ruled that the coin was the property of the owner and not the US Government.
These legal cases can be very expensive BUT, there is a LOT at stake (notoriety, historical recognition, values) and anybody that possesses an authentic 1964-D Peace Dollar would certainly have consulted with prominent lawyers in the field to explore the possibilities of going public with the coin(s).
Photographic evidence would most assuredly exist yet, nothing.
I do not believe that there are ANY 1964-D Peace Dollars waiting out there to be discovered just like I do not believe in BigFoot, the Abominable Snowman, or World Peace.
These are all simply fantasies propogated by those that either refuse to or simply cannot rationalize out a logical answer.
The name is LEE!
"Obviously highly suggesting to make a burner account" LOL
It just gets crazier and crazier on the web.
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
If I owned the Peace Dollar(s) there wouldn't be any photos taken ever or the crazy notion of showing them to a lawyer or coin guru to check them out. I'm surprised that someone risked taking them to the 1972 ANA.
As time went by, there were rumors that some 1964-D Peace dollars had escaped the U.S. Mint. Eva Adams was under a lot of scrutiny and when asked whether any of these coins existed, her response was that they were all melted. However, years later according to Mint records, two test strikes resurfaced. The two coins that surfaced were apparently from the 30 test pieces that were sent to Washington for inspection. Those two coins remained in the Treasury Vault until 1970 but were immediately destroyed by the U.S. Mint as soon as they were discovered.
316K regular strikes....and 30 test strikes for the big boyz....and no one screwed up?....yeah right. They weighed those coins prior to melting....did not count them....just like the 1933 Saints. I'll raise my odds to 95%.
PCGS article on the Peace dollar
The 1870-s half dime was not supposed to have existed. Yet one showed up approx 108 years later. There was no "photographic evidence" prior to that. Others must have been struck as well. We have no photographic evidence of 1870-s quarters, yet there is other evidence some were struck along with other 1870-s coinage. Someday, one of them will surface. How about the assay/trial strike specimens of the 1873-cc NA dimes (1 known) and quarters (5 known)....probably were supposed to be returned to the mint for melting.....which didn't quite happen. How many years went by following the govt's confiscation of 1933 Saints into the 1940's before more were found? Over 60 years when Izzy's 10 coins showed up. They thought they got them all....yeah right. They probably still haven't got them all as others are likely still hiding out there.
Why rehash this? It's been discussed ad nauseam.
I'm with you all the way!!!!!
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
PCGS will pay $10,000 for the opportunity to grade one
PCGS will pay $10,000 for the opportunity to grade one
Now that would be a collectors club quarterly special!
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
Even if five of these supposed coins were shown at the 1972 ANA, there is no guarantee or verification that the coins were actually genuine.
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
Even if five of these supposed coins were shown at the 1972 ANA, there is no guarantee or verification that the coins were actually genuine.
True but $25K is a ton of cash to lay out for a bunch of fakes.
I am guessing the buyer(s) were fairly confident in their purchase(s).
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
jim
but I have no question in my mind that they exist
IMO 10K is nothing, if I had a piece of history in this extremely rare coin,
would I chance it that it was a setup, or someone turned provided officials with info that led to its confiscation
Ever read about the five 1969-S doubled dies that were confiscated, and destroyed years later, one of which was turned in to the Mint by a dealer after receiving one from a collector to validate......
Jay Parino was one of the most incredible dealers I ever met, he had more stories, knew of more fantasy coins, had more connections, than anyone I ever met. He knew how to authenticate rare coins, such as the 1974-D Alum, which is a doubled die reverse. He knew of the underground coin market. Look where it landed him.
Kevin
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
Even if five of these supposed coins were shown at the 1972 ANA, there is no guarantee or verification that the coins were actually genuine.
True but $25K is a ton of cash to lay out for a bunch of fakes.
I am guessing the buyer(s) were fairly confident in their purchase(s).
Or that the buyer didn't want to take a chance of them being real and not having another chance?
How many buyers were there for the 5 coins? 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 different buyers?
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In the long run you have to trust documents more than hearsay. Hearsay may occassionally trump documentation, but don't take the one exception where it does and automatically assume that the same thing applies to your favorite problem.
insatiable curiosity, opportunity, yes
paranoia, general being careful, I would meet in a neutral controlled environment such as a bank, and also have a back up plan, such as a friend there, or waiting close by, or would bring my friends smith & wesson. I would also do my research first on the coin, person, and such.
I am also a bigger person, confident in my abilities in defending myself after years of training in diferent arts, even played chicken with Joe Frazier once down in Phila (I lost). So I do not worry about different scenarios, but still follow basic common sense.
I have seen some incredible collections over the years, normally it was with individuals who I had established friendships over the years, stuff of legends, normally at their house where it was secure.
I have a close friend, who during the 60s, grandfather used to take him to these underground meetings, where they would show their fantasy and sometimes illegal coins, show and tell so to speak.
I spoke to someone who I knew had one of the 1858 doubled die Lincolns, I wanted to photograph, we agreed to meet at my mother-in-laws, who was half way between us and a neutral place, he was an older gentlemen, who I did a background check before and knew he was a retired cop, so knew he was probably carrying....., it was all fine, but I told him, I hope he was not carrying a gun into the house, if my mother-in-law sees that, she would kill both of us, LOL
If your talking about Breen, I had read he did not go after young men, who could defend themselves, he went after kids. And as any parent would, they would not permit their child to go with any adult, no matter who they were, unless they were there with their child.
Kevin
RWB says they don't exist. He's worked on this problem more than anyone and I'll take his word for it.
In the long run you have to trust documents more than hearsay. Hearsay may occassionally trump documentation, but don't take the one exception where it does and automatically assume that the same thing applies to your favorite problem.
LOL, researching something is great, can read all you want in print from what others knew or did not know.
Then there is life experiences, can create a different perspective.
If someone had one, do you think they would tell someone who would put it in the book. What if they did, and the Secret Service shows up at their door to find out where they got the photograph, what if they told of you rather than go to jail?
My brain cannot deny that some exist. The government cannot deny that they'll be on them like white on rice, if any come out.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Knowing that something exists does not demand proof, except for the non-believers.
Cheers, RickO
The other 10 1933 $20s didn't exist either...
The rest of them will never see the light of day, now.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
In 1964, if you were a young man, and a respected coin expert invited you up to his room to show you a 1964 silver dollar, would you go
Yes, if that's all he was going to show me
The other 10 1933 $20s didn't exist either...
The rest of them will never see the light of day, now.
I thought I read that the Appealate Court told the District Court to return them as the prosecution made a procedural error in timing?
IMO, one of the most important attributes for a collector is reputation, this is especially true for an author of coin books. Part of that is trust. If people believed you would use information they did not want released, you would never be told anything. If I was told something, and the individuals did not want it released, it would go to the grave, unless permission was given to release. Of course there is always that big coin hall on the other side......
Proving a negative (they don't exist) is not possible.... believing a negative is faith.
Knowing that something exists does not demand proof, except for the non-believers.
Cheers, RickO
Hey Rick,
I believe you can reasonably prove a negative (that something does not exist or is not true).
This is especially true given that some of the stories that we have now are based upon hearsay, such as Hallie Daggett received 3 1894-S dimes from her father, Superintendent John Daggett in 1894, and spent 1 on ice cream on the way home and sold the other two to to Earl Parker in 1948.
This was a story created by Guy Chapman in 1972 who told Coin World editor James Johnson.
John Daggett was laid up sick in 1894, bed ridden. Acting Superintendent Robert Barnett was in charge of the day to day operations. John's son Ben also worked at the S.F. Mint in 1894. Hallie was born in 1878 and would have been 16 at the time. I did extensive research on Hallie, where she lived, worked, died, everything, even the banks where she lived. In talking to Bowers, he asked Parker several times who sold him the two coins, he did not say.
The key is the article in Feb 1951 Numismatist, (originally published by Hewitt Bros in Chicago, page 184, under the title, Two 1894-S dimes sold), which states that a banker in Ukiah gave his daughter three dimes to his little daughter and told her to same them, one of which she spent on ice cream, two which she sold.
The second key, is that I had spoke to an Ken Jordon, who was the President of the Rosemont Coin Club starting in 1959, and was there when Parker had the two coins sale and was telling him and Guy Chapman the story of how he purchased the coins from the daughter of a banker who lived in Ukiah. Jordon never stated to them that it was Hallie Daggett. This story of Hallie Daggett was an mis-interpreation by Chapman.
I believe you can prove a negative, what opportunities existed, understanding the individuals involved, what facts can be proven, what reasonable and logical conclusions can be drawn. How did the individuals who made the claim draw their conclusions, what did they know...... The negative here is that Hallie Daggett did not receive the 1894-S dimes, which reasonable can be proven.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
The existence and sale of 5 pieces at the '72 ANA is confirmed fact. What became of them, only the purchaser(s) and seller(s) know for sure. Rumors have persisted of private sales... a dealer mentioned earlier in this thread is rumored to have brokered one at a mid-80s Central States show... but again, no proof. These will remain a numismatic mystery for some time- until some brave individual and his legal team decides to test the waters, much like what was and is being done with the 1933 Saints.
Confirmed how? Where can we find this confirmation?
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
The 1972 ANA was in New Orleans. The 1976 ANA was in New York.
Now we're suppose to believe 5 exist based on nothing more than hear say. Did Kevinj actually see the 5 or was he just told about them? Why hasn't this been brought in any of the hundreds of threads over the last 4 years or so? Because of this revelation it's now gospel??
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I'd just love to know which dies were used, which collars were used, and what the surfaces looked like.
With all the threads and posts concerning the surviving existence of the 1964-D Peace dollar, not even a photograph has come forward.
Now we're suppose to believe 5 exist based on nothing more than hear say. Did Kevinj actually see the 5 or was he just told about them? Why hasn't this been brought in any of the hundreds of threads over the last 4 years or so? Because of this revelation it's now gospel??
I have been talking about this for the last 10 years through threads, over and over and over. I can neither confirm or deny anything. But I am absolutely postive they exist.
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
The 1972 ANA was in New Orleans. The 1976 ANA was in New York.
Your right, it was a 1972 coin show in NY, I assumed it was the ANA show, my bad on that part.
The existence and sale of 5 pieces at the '72 ANA is confirmed fact. What became of them, only the purchaser(s) and seller(s) know for sure. Rumors have persisted of private sales... a dealer mentioned earlier in this thread is rumored to have brokered one at a mid-80s Central States show... but again, no proof. These will remain a numismatic mystery for some time- until some brave individual and his legal team decides to test the waters, much like what was and is being done with the 1933 Saints.
Confirmed how? Where can we find this confirmation?
Your right Tom, there is no confirmed proof. Those individuals who have seen them will not come forth as they do not want someone knocking on their door. No photograph of a genuine specimen has come forth.
There was no confirmed proof of a 1943-D Copper cent for years either, even though many believed such existed. Until the person who made it died, and left in his will the unique specimen and letter stating that he struck it when he worked in the Mint as a novelity and kept until his death as he feared prosecution.....
I doubt $100k would even get you close. Regular proof peace dollars sell well north of that and there are way more than 5 of those. I'm guessing with all the secrecy & hype that $500k would be a starting price. That said, you're more acquainted with the uber-deep end of the pool than I am.
I'd just love to know which dies were used, which collars were used, and what the surfaces looked like.
Long ago I once offered $100K to somebody I thought had a reasonable chance of having one, without success. I later repeated the offer to that person's estate, again without success. It was an amount I was willing to gamble, knowing that I could lose it all if the coin ended up getting seized. I don't think many people would gamble $500K today with that possibility existing, but I may be wrong.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
In this case, normal practice at the Mint was to permit employees to purchase 5 specimens of the new coin. This was done prior to Congress pulling the plug, then they were asked to return.......
By "confirmed", I meant that there were witnesses and not just stories.
I agree, there were several witnesses to the 5 specimens being presented for sale in 1972. I was only 11 at the time and was did not see any specimens then in NY.
By "confirmed", I meant that there were witnesses and not just stories.
I agree, there were several witnesses to the 5 specimens being presented for sale in 1972. I was only 11 at the time and was did not see any specimens then in NY.
Thanks for the answer...finally....that took awhile......but not as long as the time elapsed since 1964
That was intentional that I did not respond to your quesiton. Funny how we remember the past and learn from it.
ate them!
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5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
Even if five of these supposed coins were shown at the 1972 ANA, there is no guarantee or verification that the coins were actually genuine.
True but $25K is a ton of cash to lay out for a bunch of fakes.
I am guessing the buyer(s) were fairly confident in their purchase(s).
Assuming for a moment that this supposed transaction actually took place (and there is no available corroborating evidence that it did), the buyer(s) wouldn't have had any genuine coins to compare the "five" to. With no known die characteristics available for genuine 1964 Peace Dollars, authenticating one is akin to shooting in the dark.