Originally posted by: kevinj 5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each will not be shown as they will be confiscated. Without question they exist. Kevin
Even if five of these supposed coins were shown at the 1972 ANA, there is no guarantee or verification that the coins were actually genuine.
True but $25K is a ton of cash to lay out for a bunch of fakes. I am guessing the buyer(s) were fairly confident in their purchase(s).
Assuming for a moment that this supposed transaction actually took place (and there is no available corroborating evidence that it did), the buyer(s) wouldn't have had any genuine coins to compare the "five" to. With no known die characteristics available for genuine 1964 Peace Dollars, authenticating one is akin to shooting in the dark.
What if they could explain where they got them and how they got them, would you believe them if their explanation and who they were, were reasonable?
Originally posted by: kevinj I remember how through the late 40s and early 50s when everyone was looking for a 1943 Copper or 1944 Steel, the Mint was stating none existed, and they were not made. Yet Chief Engraver John Sinock had one of each, which he later gave to his mistriss, who sold it to John Ford I believe in 1960.
IMO, one of the most important attributes for a collector is reputation, this is especially true for an author of coin books. Part of that is trust. If people believed you would use information they did not want released, you would never be told anything. If I was told something, and the individuals did not want it released, it would go to the grave, unless permission was given to release. Of course there is always that big coin hall on the other side......
Linking an item to John Ford is not exactly the best way to authenticate it. In fact, I think that alone brings the authenticity into question.
Of course, some genuine 1943-copper and 1944-steel cents exist. I can see where the Mint's official position is that none were produced. But accidents do happen. However, accidental production of an odd item within the production of a larger volume of similar items (error) is different than the 1933 St Gaudens double eagle and 1964 Peace Dollar situations.
Originally posted by: kevinj I remember how through the late 40s and early 50s when everyone was looking for a 1943 Copper or 1944 Steel, the Mint was stating none existed, and they were not made. Yet Chief Engraver John Sinock had one of each, which he later gave to his mistriss, who sold it to John Ford I believe in 1960.
IMO, one of the most important attributes for a collector is reputation, this is especially true for an author of coin books. Part of that is trust. If people believed you would use information they did not want released, you would never be told anything. If I was told something, and the individuals did not want it released, it would go to the grave, unless permission was given to release. Of course there is always that big coin hall on the other side......
Linking an item to John Ford is not exactly the best way to authenticate it. In fact, I think that alone brings the authenticity into question.
Of course, some genuine 1943-copper and 1944-steel cents exist. I can see where the Mint's official position is that none were produced. But accidents do happen. However, accidental production of an odd item within the production of a larger volume of similar items (error) is different than the 1933 St Gaudens double eagle and 1964 Peace Dollar situations.
The lady gave Ford a letter stating where she received the coins....., which was Chief Engraver John Sinnock.
Actually I believe back then, the Mint was implying that they did not make mistakes and they could not exist, yet people believed they existed, rumors of their existance, and around 1956 I believe, the first was found in circulation. The only 1943-D Copper was struck intentionally by a Mint employee who struck as a novelity, then left it as part of his will as he was afraid of prosecution. Point was that there was no evidence in the public that they existed, yet it was one of the most sought after coins during the day. Of course, it was heavily hyped up.
Most likely, many of the 43 coppers and 44 steels were accidently struck by planchets left in the coining presses, or being stuck in the bins that transport planchets around the Mint, becoming dislodged when new planchets were added.
Originally posted by: telephoto1 The existence and sale of 5 pieces at the '72 ANA is confirmed fact.
Confirmed how ? Confirmed by whom ?
It seems far from "confirmed" to me.
He had a subsequent response that confirmed means that there were witnesses to the coins being shown in 1972 at a coin show in NY, and I agree with this statement.
Originally posted by: kevinj Normally you need an opprotunity in order to get something like this out of the Mint.
In this case, normal practice at the Mint was to permit employees to purchase 5 specimens of the new coin. This was done prior to Congress pulling the plug, then they were asked to return.......
This doesn't exactly jive with the other supposed story of how Denver Mint employees were each allowed to purchase *2* such coins.
But I don't know of a single instance where any such employee has indicated that they were allowed to purchase one or more of the coins and was then asked to return them.
I might believe this story if a credible Denver Mint employee who was actually there were to recount in detail the story of how they purchased such a coin and was subsequently asked to return it.
I do believe that this story has been "confused" and has morphed over the years. The origins of this story may have to do with Mint employees being able to buy the new 1964-D Kennedy Half Dollars.
Originally posted by: telephoto1 The existence and sale of 5 pieces at the '72 ANA is confirmed fact.
Confirmed how ? Confirmed by whom ?
It seems far from "confirmed" to me.
He had a subsequent response that confirmed means that there were witnesses to the coins being shown in 1972 at a coin show in NY, and I agree with this statement.
Originally posted by: telephoto1 The existence and sale of 5 pieces at the '72 ANA is confirmed fact.
Confirmed how ? Confirmed by whom ?
It seems far from "confirmed" to me.
He had a subsequent response that confirmed means that there were witnesses to the coins being shown in 1972 at a coin show in NY, and I agree with this statement.
Who is "he" ?
Who were these "witnesses" ?
he is telephoto1, who you quoted witnesses are coin dealers who were at the show and were shown the coins.
Originally posted by: kevinj Normally you need an opprotunity in order to get something like this out of the Mint.
In this case, normal practice at the Mint was to permit employees to purchase 5 specimens of the new coin. This was done prior to Congress pulling the plug, then they were asked to return.......
This doesn't exactly jive with the other supposed story of how Denver Mint employees were each allowed to purchase *2* such coins.
But I don't know of a single instance where any such employee has indicated that they were allowed to purchase one or more of the coins and was then asked to return them.
I might believe this story if a credible Denver Mint employee who was actually there were to recount in detail the story of how they purchased such a coin and was subsequently asked to return it.
I do believe that this story has been "confused" and has morphed over the years. The origins of this story may have to do with Mint employees being able to buy the new 1964-D Kennedy Half Dollars.
Normally you need an opprotunity in order to get something like this out of the Mint.
In this case, normal practice at the Mint was to permit employees to purchase 5 specimens of the new coin. This was done prior to Congress pulling the plug, then they were asked to return.......
This doesn't exactly jive with the other supposed story of how Denver Mint employees were each allowed to purchase *2* such coins.
But I don't know of a single instance where any such employee has indicated that they were allowed to purchase one or more of the coins and was then asked to return them.
I might believe this story if a credible Denver Mint employee who was actually there were to recount in detail the story of how they purchased such a coin and was subsequently asked to return it.
I do believe that this story has been "confused" and has morphed over the years. The origins of this story may have to do with Mint employees being able to buy the new 1964-D Kennedy Half Dollars.
Could somebody please ask the Mint in what years it was their policy to allow employees to purchase newly-struck coins? When did they start, do they still do so, and if not when did they stop? And why?
I would do it myself, but the Mint does not answer any of my questions anymore.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
There is never any actual details given. I mean it is repeated over and over that 5 were bought at the show. So nobody took a picture? Nobody has any idea at ALL who sold them? Who bought them?
Also, 1972 was not THAT long ago.......why does it seem like this happened in 1772? How come it is always "I know a guy who saw them at the ANA show.". Ok. Where is the actual guy who saw them? Did they all die a few years after?? Why is everything related to this coin second hand at best? Even the 1933 $20 I have heard people at least CLAIM to have first hand knowledge of a location of one or more. WIth the 64d nobody has ever in my recollection giving anything close to first hand knowledge.
A coin like the '64 D Peace Dollar is only rumored to exist. So why were so many adamantly opposed about DCarr striking a fantasy piece ? My theory on that is because there are a few specimens out there, and people who are in the know will never let anyone know, for fear of having them confiscated. That's just a theory, though. Who's got the proof ?
A coin like the '64 D Peace Dollar is only rumored to exist. So why were so many adamantly opposed about DCarr striking a fantasy piece ? My theory on that is because there are a few specimens out there, and people who are in the know will never let anyone know, for fear of having them confiscated.
That's just a theory, though. Who's got the proof ?
Because it is a fact that they WERE struck.
Their current existence is unknown. One or more might surface some day. If so, what would become of the status of Carr's strikes?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Dear CaptHenway; It is my belief that if any genuine specimens were to come to light, it would be a wonderful thing, numismatically. What that might or might not do to the fantasy pieces struck by Mr. Carr is also unknown. That's for speculation. I would suspect it would make those few fantasy pieces even more popular, as a novelty "re strike" on an authentic piece of original equipment. Not quite NOS, but kind of , from a manufacturing standpoint (New Old Stock) ?
DH agreed to remove these Peace Dollar coins from the Top 100 Modern Set (along with the 2 other coins illegal to own). That was supposed to be done a few years ago now. They should have never been there in the first place I believe. I hope it gets done soon so I don't feel the need to travel into space to remove a 22kt Sac Dollar from the US govt. space station wall in order to fill a hole in my registry set.
Just my 2 cents. Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Some time ago I was talking to a person who claimed to have some knowledge of the 1964 Peace Dollars. They had second-hand or third-hand information (which always seems to be the case with these). But they went further to claim that they had seen a picture of one, stating that one of the characteristics was that it had a straight leg on the "R" of TRUST. 1921-1935 issues have a somewhat curved leg.
I was about to dismiss the whole anecdote as yet another "fantasy". But then this person told me that the picture had been published in a certain book. I soon obtained a copy of that book. There was a picture of a supposed "1964" Peace Dollar in the book. That particular picture was unlike the other pictures in the book. The picture is low in quality and appears to be a scan of a printed newspaper picture with pronounced dots. All the other pictures in the book are of much higher quality. Without the original photo, it is not possible to tell if the photo is original or if it had been retouched. The picture in the book only showed an obverse - there was no picture of the reverse.
So is this a picture of an original 1964 Peace Dollar ?
PS:
It appears that the Chinese may have had access to this same picture when they made these (the "64" date digits are similar):
The picture in John Highfill's book is NOT a 1964 Peace dollar. It is a picture of a black-and-white glossy photograph of a genuine Peace dollar
on which the art director of Coins magazine changed the date for use in the magazine.
I saw the retouched photo many times during my years with Krause Publications.
I no longer have access to the back issues of Coins so I can't say when the retouched photo was first used, but it was used in the various Krause coin periodicals from time to time.
What he said. I am sure that when I was at Coin World we had an "artist's conception" altered picture we could use as needed.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Originally posted by: wondercoin DH agreed to remove these Peace Dollar coins from the Top 100 Modern Set (along with the 2 other coins illegal to own). That was supposed to be done a few years ago now. They should have never been there in the first place I believe. I hope it gets done soon so I don't feel the need to travel into space to remove a 22kt Sac Dollar from the US govt. space station wall in order to fill a hole in my registry set.
Just my 2 cents. Wondercoin.
What other 2 coins are illegal to own (according to the US Government)? The 1974 aluminum but what is the other?
DH agreed to remove these Peace Dollar coins from the Top 100 Modern Set (along with the 2 other coins illegal to own). That was supposed to be done a few years ago now. They should have never been there in the first place I believe. I hope it gets done soon so I don't feel the need to travel into space to remove a 22kt Sac Dollar from the US govt. space station wall in order to fill a hole in my registry set.
Just my 2 cents. Wondercoin.
What other 2 coins are illegal to own (according to the US Government)? The 1974 aluminum but what is the other?
According to the US Government courts, the 1974-D aluminum is legal to own so they could rule the same way for the 1974 aluminum if given the chance.
Who needs a 2nd 1964 Peace dollar to authenticate any single coin? Does that make the PCGS MS64 1870-s half dime currently "impossible" to authenticate? How has the market over the past 37 years "authenticated" this coin, as well as other unique coins like the 1873-cc NA dime, the 1907 $20 Indian J-1776, etc.?
The particular minting techniques of the US mint from decades past is pretty precise. It would take quite a set up and cash outlay to come up with all the tools and supplies to strike a "perfect" counterfeit that perfectly mirrors every US Mint technique known. The Chinese fakes are still laughable.
Who needs a 2nd 1964 Peace dollar to authenticate any single coin? Does that make the PCGS MS64 1870-s half dime currently "impossible" to authenticate? How has the market over the past 37 years "authenticated" this coin, as well as other unique coins like the 1873-cc NA dime, the 1907 $20 Indian J-1776, etc.?
The particular minting techniques of the US mint from decades past is pretty precise. It would take quite a set up and cash outlay to come up with all the tools and supplies to strike a "perfect" counterfeit that perfectly mirrors every US Mint technique known. The Chinese fakes are still laughable.
When I authenticated the 1870-S for ANACS I got ahold of an Unc. 1871-S and compared it to that. The reverse and the collar die matched. There was no alteration of the date. Ergo, genuine.
T.D.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Originally posted by: roadrunner Who needs a 2nd 1964 Peace dollar to authenticate any single coin? Does that make the PCGS MS64 1870-s half dime currently "impossible" to authenticate? How has the market over the past 37 years "authenticated" this coin, as well as other unique coins like the 1873-cc NA dime, the 1907 $20 Indian J-1776, etc.?
The particular minting techniques of the US mint from decades past is pretty precise. It would take quite a set up and cash outlay to come up with all the tools and supplies to strike a "perfect" counterfeit that perfectly mirrors every US Mint technique known. The Chinese fakes are still laughable.
In the case of the 1870-S half dime, at least there is the opportunity to compare it to 1869-S and 1871-S half dimes.
But in the case of the 1964 Peace Dollar the closest thing to compare to is the 1935 issue, which was 30 years prior and the work of a different sculptor.
Without any pedigreed photos of an original 1964 Peace Dollar, there is no way to know what the sculpting nuances were for that issue. And without any original coins to compare to, there is no way to know what the luster and striking characteristic were.
Suppose that all the 1921 Morgan Dollars were melted and none were issued. But then somebody turned up with one claiming that it was a genuine original. Without any photos or genuine pedigreed examples to compare to, how would you know if it was a genuine coin, or a counterfeit that had irregularities in the sculpting/engraving ? The 1921 Morgan Dollars were entirely re-sculpted and re-engraved by Barber. Since many exist, we can see the differences in the design today. The 1964 Peace Dollars were entirely re-sculpted and re-engraved by Gasparro. We do not know what the design differences were.
I wonder if the Mint still has the plaster models? Somebody want to file a FOIA request for a picture of them? Could be very handy down the road.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Originally posted by: AUPT The picture in John Highfill's book is NOT a 1964 Peace dollar. It is a picture of a black-and-white glossy photograph of a genuine Peace dollar on which the art director of Coins magazine changed the date for use in the magazine.
I saw the retouched photo many times during my years with Krause Publications.
I no longer have access to the back issues of Coins so I can't say when the retouched photo was first used, but it was used in the various Krause coin periodicals from time to time.
I thought as much.
So this person telling me the story was full of it, as I suspected.
Why do people fabricate and imagine such "tall tales" ?
Do they really believe their own made-up story, or do they get some strange satisfaction from spreading such things ?
Originally posted by: AUPT The picture in John Highfill's book is NOT a 1964 Peace dollar. It is a picture of a black-and-white glossy photograph of a genuine Peace dollar on which the art director of Coins magazine changed the date for use in the magazine.
I saw the retouched photo many times during my years with Krause Publications.
The picture in John Highfill's book is NOT a 1964 Peace dollar. It is a picture of a black-and-white glossy photograph of a genuine Peace dollar
on which the art director of Coins magazine changed the date for use in the magazine.
I saw the retouched photo many times during my years with Krause Publications.
Not good for Krause Pub., '64 Peace exist crowd.
This is not news to those of us who have written about 1964-D Peace dollars.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Originally posted by: roadrunner Who needs a 2nd 1964 Peace dollar to authenticate any single coin? Does that make the PCGS MS64 1870-s half dime currently "impossible" to authenticate? How has the market over the past 37 years "authenticated" this coin, as well as other unique coins like the 1873-cc NA dime, the 1907 $20 Indian J-1776, etc.?
The particular minting techniques of the US mint from decades past is pretty precise. It would take quite a set up and cash outlay to come up with all the tools and supplies to strike a "perfect" counterfeit that perfectly mirrors every US Mint technique known. The Chinese fakes are still laughable.
The other 1870-S HD is buried in the cornerstone of the old SF Mint, there is one of each denom buried there.
Under the highest of security no doubt since PCGS did grade the illegal to own 1974 Aluminum Cent. It has never been to market and as such is under the radar. But it does exist, it is also illegal to own.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
Even if five of these supposed coins were shown at the 1972 ANA, there is no guarantee or verification that the coins were actually genuine.
Check!
And
Mate.
Say, when were those counterfeit Micro O Morgans produced anyway? Certainly good enough to fool the professional grading community for a good period of time.
True but $25K is a ton of cash to lay out for a bunch of fakes.
I am guessing the buyer(s) were fairly confident in their purchase(s).
So were the purchasers of the Micro O Morgans.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
If someone stated they had a 1964-D and wanted to show me in their room, would I go?
insatiable curiosity, opportunity, yes
paranoia, general being careful, I would meet in a neutral controlled environment such as a bank, and also have a back up plan, such as a friend there, or waiting close by, or would bring my friends smith & wesson. I would also do my research first on the coin, person, and such.
I am also a bigger person, confident in my abilities in defending myself after years of training in diferent arts, even played chicken with Joe Frazier once down in Phila (I lost). So I do not worry about different scenarios, but still follow basic common sense.
I have seen some incredible collections over the years, normally it was with individuals who I had established friendships over the years, stuff of legends, normally at their house where it was secure.
I have a close friend, who during the 60s, grandfather used to take him to these underground meetings, where they would show their fantasy and sometimes illegal coins, show and tell so to speak.
I spoke to someone who I knew had one of the 1858 doubled die Lincolns, I wanted to photograph, we agreed to meet at my mother-in-laws, who was half way between us and a neutral place, he was an older gentlemen, who I did a background check before and knew he was a retired cop, so knew he was probably carrying....., it was all fine, but I told him, I hope he was not carrying a gun into the house, if my mother-in-law sees that, she would kill both of us, LOL
If your talking about Breen, I had read he did not go after young men, who could defend themselves, he went after kids. And as any parent would, they would not permit their child to go with any adult, no matter who they were, unless they were there with their child.
Kevin
Wow. Talk about perpetuating a numismatic myth with over zealous scenarios.
Do you suppose that the Langbords took such actions?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Under the highest of security no doubt since PCGS did grade the illegal to own 1974 Aluminum Cent. It has never been to market and as such is under the radar. But it does exist, it is also illegal to own.
The 1974 aluminum cent is illegal to own only because the government says so. Several of these coins were distributed to U. S. Congress for review, then not all were returned, and the government did nothing to try to get them back. My opinion is that the government abandoned their interest in the coins by doing nothing to get the remaining coins back. If it came to a court case, it would be very interesting to see how it would turn out.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Originally posted by: WillieBoyd2 In 1964, if you were a young man, and a respected coin expert invited you up to his room to show you a 1964 silver dollar, would you go
Yes, if that's all he was going to show me
The Walter Breens of the world are fortunately very rare.
Originally posted by: WillieBoyd2 In 1964, if you were a young man, and a respected coin expert invited you up to his room to show you a 1964 silver dollar, would you go
Yes, if that's all he was going to show me
The Walter Breens of the world are fortunately very rare.
Originally posted by: WillieBoyd2 In 1964, if you were a young man, and a respected coin expert invited you up to his room to show you a 1964 silver dollar, would you go
Yes, if that's all he was going to show me
The Walter Breens of the world are fortunately very rare.
An awful (but hilarious) Breen reference.
I guess Wally was too cheap for candy. Instead of "Hey kid, want some candy?" it must have gone along the lines of "Hey kid, want to see my 1964-D Peace Dollar?" I am sure we could substitute the Peace Dollar for any number of Breen's questionable "proof" strikings.
I had coffee break this morning with Chet Krause and Cliff Mishler (we have retirement offices in the same "strip mall" on Main St., Iola).
Cliff recalls that the artist's modification purporting to show the 1964 Peace dollar ran on the cover of Coins magazine, probably the issue dated February, 1964.
Chet recalled having been at the Philadelphia Mint visiting Frank Gasparro and seeing him working on plaster models for the coin.
I would love to see those plaster models as it would also end a dialogue I have had with a certain member in the past concerning what any extant 1964-D Peace Dollar looks like should one ever surface.
I wonder if the Mint still has the plaster models? Somebody want to file a FOIA request for a picture of them? Could be very handy down the road.
Anybody?
Class?
Bueller?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
Even if five of these supposed coins were shown at the 1972 ANA, there is no guarantee or verification that the coins were actually genuine.
True but $25K is a ton of cash to lay out for a bunch of fakes.
I am guessing the buyer(s) were fairly confident in their purchase(s).
Assuming for a moment that this supposed transaction actually took place (and there is no available corroborating evidence that it did), the buyer(s) wouldn't have had any genuine coins to compare the "five" to. With no known die characteristics available for genuine 1964 Peace Dollars, authenticating one is akin to shooting in the dark.
What if they could explain where they got them and how they got them, would you believe them if their explanation and who they were, were reasonable?
I remember how through the late 40s and early 50s when everyone was looking for a 1943 Copper or 1944 Steel, the Mint was stating none existed, and they were not made. Yet Chief Engraver John Sinock had one of each, which he later gave to his mistriss, who sold it to John Ford I believe in 1960.
IMO, one of the most important attributes for a collector is reputation, this is especially true for an author of coin books. Part of that is trust. If people believed you would use information they did not want released, you would never be told anything. If I was told something, and the individuals did not want it released, it would go to the grave, unless permission was given to release. Of course there is always that big coin hall on the other side......
Linking an item to John Ford is not exactly the best way to authenticate it. In fact, I think that alone brings the authenticity into question.
Of course, some genuine 1943-copper and 1944-steel cents exist. I can see where the Mint's official position is that none were produced. But accidents do happen. However, accidental production of an odd item within the production of a larger volume of similar items (error) is different than the 1933 St Gaudens double eagle and 1964 Peace Dollar situations.
The existence and sale of 5 pieces at the '72 ANA is confirmed fact.
Confirmed how ?
Confirmed by whom ?
It seems far from "confirmed" to me.
I remember how through the late 40s and early 50s when everyone was looking for a 1943 Copper or 1944 Steel, the Mint was stating none existed, and they were not made. Yet Chief Engraver John Sinock had one of each, which he later gave to his mistriss, who sold it to John Ford I believe in 1960.
IMO, one of the most important attributes for a collector is reputation, this is especially true for an author of coin books. Part of that is trust. If people believed you would use information they did not want released, you would never be told anything. If I was told something, and the individuals did not want it released, it would go to the grave, unless permission was given to release. Of course there is always that big coin hall on the other side......
Linking an item to John Ford is not exactly the best way to authenticate it. In fact, I think that alone brings the authenticity into question.
Of course, some genuine 1943-copper and 1944-steel cents exist. I can see where the Mint's official position is that none were produced. But accidents do happen. However, accidental production of an odd item within the production of a larger volume of similar items (error) is different than the 1933 St Gaudens double eagle and 1964 Peace Dollar situations.
The lady gave Ford a letter stating where she received the coins....., which was Chief Engraver John Sinnock.
Actually I believe back then, the Mint was implying that they did not make mistakes and they could not exist, yet people believed they existed, rumors of their existance, and around 1956 I believe, the first was found in circulation.
The only 1943-D Copper was struck intentionally by a Mint employee who struck as a novelity, then left it as part of his will as he was afraid of prosecution.
Point was that there was no evidence in the public that they existed, yet it was one of the most sought after coins during the day. Of course, it was heavily hyped up.
Most likely, many of the 43 coppers and 44 steels were accidently struck by planchets left in the coining presses, or being stuck in the bins that transport planchets around the Mint, becoming dislodged when new planchets were added.
Kevin
The existence and sale of 5 pieces at the '72 ANA is confirmed fact.
Confirmed how ?
Confirmed by whom ?
It seems far from "confirmed" to me.
He had a subsequent response that confirmed means that there were witnesses to the coins being shown in 1972 at a coin show in NY, and I agree with this statement.
Normally you need an opprotunity in order to get something like this out of the Mint.
In this case, normal practice at the Mint was to permit employees to purchase 5 specimens of the new coin. This was done prior to Congress pulling the plug, then they were asked to return.......
This doesn't exactly jive with the other supposed story of how Denver Mint employees were each allowed to purchase *2* such coins.
But I don't know of a single instance where any such employee has indicated that they were allowed to purchase one or more of the coins and was then asked to return them.
I might believe this story if a credible Denver Mint employee who was actually there were to recount in detail the story of how they purchased such a coin and was subsequently asked to return it.
I do believe that this story has been "confused" and has morphed over the years. The origins of this story may have to do with Mint employees being able to buy the new 1964-D Kennedy Half Dollars.
The existence and sale of 5 pieces at the '72 ANA is confirmed fact.
Confirmed how ?
Confirmed by whom ?
It seems far from "confirmed" to me.
He had a subsequent response that confirmed means that there were witnesses to the coins being shown in 1972 at a coin show in NY, and I agree with this statement.
Who is "he" ?
Who were these "witnesses" ?
The existence and sale of 5 pieces at the '72 ANA is confirmed fact.
Confirmed how ?
Confirmed by whom ?
It seems far from "confirmed" to me.
He had a subsequent response that confirmed means that there were witnesses to the coins being shown in 1972 at a coin show in NY, and I agree with this statement.
Who is "he" ?
Who were these "witnesses" ?
he is telephoto1, who you quoted
witnesses are coin dealers who were at the show and were shown the coins.
Normally you need an opprotunity in order to get something like this out of the Mint.
In this case, normal practice at the Mint was to permit employees to purchase 5 specimens of the new coin. This was done prior to Congress pulling the plug, then they were asked to return.......
This doesn't exactly jive with the other supposed story of how Denver Mint employees were each allowed to purchase *2* such coins.
But I don't know of a single instance where any such employee has indicated that they were allowed to purchase one or more of the coins and was then asked to return them.
I might believe this story if a credible Denver Mint employee who was actually there were to recount in detail the story of how they purchased such a coin and was subsequently asked to return it.
I do believe that this story has been "confused" and has morphed over the years. The origins of this story may have to do with Mint employees being able to buy the new 1964-D Kennedy Half Dollars.
Yeah, someday hope I can explain.......
Normally you need an opprotunity in order to get something like this out of the Mint.
In this case, normal practice at the Mint was to permit employees to purchase 5 specimens of the new coin. This was done prior to Congress pulling the plug, then they were asked to return.......
This doesn't exactly jive with the other supposed story of how Denver Mint employees were each allowed to purchase *2* such coins.
But I don't know of a single instance where any such employee has indicated that they were allowed to purchase one or more of the coins and was then asked to return them.
I might believe this story if a credible Denver Mint employee who was actually there were to recount in detail the story of how they purchased such a coin and was subsequently asked to return it.
I do believe that this story has been "confused" and has morphed over the years. The origins of this story may have to do with Mint employees being able to buy the new 1964-D Kennedy Half Dollars.
Could somebody please ask the Mint in what years it was their policy to allow employees to purchase newly-struck coins? When did they start, do they still do so, and if not when did they stop? And why?
I would do it myself, but the Mint does not answer any of my questions anymore.
TD
Here is my problem with it:
There is never any actual details given. I mean it is repeated over and over that 5 were bought at the show. So nobody took a picture? Nobody has any idea at ALL who sold them? Who bought them?
Also, 1972 was not THAT long ago.......why does it seem like this happened in 1772? How come it is always "I know a guy who saw them at the ANA show.". Ok. Where is the actual guy who saw them? Did they all die a few years after?? Why is everything related to this coin second hand at best? Even the 1933 $20 I have heard people at least CLAIM to have first hand knowledge of a location of one or more. WIth the 64d nobody has ever in my recollection giving anything close to first hand knowledge.
That's just a theory, though. Who's got the proof ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
A coin like the '64 D Peace Dollar is only rumored to exist. So why were so many adamantly opposed about DCarr striking a fantasy piece ? My theory on that is because there are a few specimens out there, and people who are in the know will never let anyone know, for fear of having them confiscated.
That's just a theory, though. Who's got the proof ?
Because it is a fact that they WERE struck.
Their current existence is unknown. One or more might surface some day. If so, what would become of the status of Carr's strikes?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It is my belief that if any genuine specimens were to come to light, it would be a wonderful thing, numismatically.
What that might or might not do to the fantasy pieces struck by Mr. Carr is also unknown. That's for speculation. I would suspect it would make those few fantasy pieces even more popular, as a novelty "re strike" on an authentic piece of original equipment. Not quite NOS, but kind of , from a manufacturing standpoint (New Old Stock) ?
Who knows, but it's fun being here, for now.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Not much to add other than I would like to see one in my lifetime.
+5
Just my 2 cents. Wondercoin.
Leave it alone for a year or two.
Till the stories go hazy and the legends come true,
Then do it again. Some Things never end.
Says who, the "lady" or Ford ?
Ford had a variety of numismatic items fabricated and then passed them off as genuine.
A letter would be easier to fabricate than any of that.
I was about to dismiss the whole anecdote as yet another "fantasy". But then this person told me that the picture had been published in a certain book. I soon obtained a copy of that book. There was a picture of a supposed "1964" Peace Dollar in the book. That particular picture was unlike the other pictures in the book. The picture is low in quality and appears to be a scan of a printed newspaper picture with pronounced dots. All the other pictures in the book are of much higher quality. Without the original photo, it is not possible to tell if the photo is original or if it had been retouched. The picture in the book only showed an obverse - there was no picture of the reverse.
So is this a picture of an original 1964 Peace Dollar ?
PS:
It appears that the Chinese may have had access to this same picture when they made these (the "64" date digits are similar):
on which the art director of Coins magazine changed the date for use in the magazine.
I saw the retouched photo many times during my years with Krause Publications.
I no longer have access to the back issues of Coins so I can't say when the retouched photo was first used, but it was used in the various Krause coin periodicals from time to time.
DH agreed to remove these Peace Dollar coins from the Top 100 Modern Set (along with the 2 other coins illegal to own). That was supposed to be done a few years ago now. They should have never been there in the first place I believe. I hope it gets done soon so I don't feel the need to travel into space to remove a 22kt Sac Dollar from the US govt. space station wall in order to fill a hole in my registry set.
Just my 2 cents. Wondercoin.
What other 2 coins are illegal to own (according to the US Government)? The 1974 aluminum but what is the other?
DH agreed to remove these Peace Dollar coins from the Top 100 Modern Set (along with the 2 other coins illegal to own). That was supposed to be done a few years ago now. They should have never been there in the first place I believe. I hope it gets done soon so I don't feel the need to travel into space to remove a 22kt Sac Dollar from the US govt. space station wall in order to fill a hole in my registry set.
Just my 2 cents. Wondercoin.
What other 2 coins are illegal to own (according to the US Government)? The 1974 aluminum but what is the other?
According to the US Government courts, the 1974-D aluminum is legal to own so they could rule the same way for the 1974 aluminum if given the chance.
The particular minting techniques of the US mint from decades past is pretty precise. It would take quite a set up and cash outlay to come up with all the tools and supplies to strike a "perfect" counterfeit that perfectly mirrors every US Mint technique known. The Chinese fakes are still laughable.
Wondercoin.
My YouTube Channel
Who needs a 2nd 1964 Peace dollar to authenticate any single coin? Does that make the PCGS MS64 1870-s half dime currently "impossible" to authenticate? How has the market over the past 37 years "authenticated" this coin, as well as other unique coins like the 1873-cc NA dime, the 1907 $20 Indian J-1776, etc.?
The particular minting techniques of the US mint from decades past is pretty precise. It would take quite a set up and cash outlay to come up with all the tools and supplies to strike a "perfect" counterfeit that perfectly mirrors every US Mint technique known. The Chinese fakes are still laughable.
When I authenticated the 1870-S for ANACS I got ahold of an Unc. 1871-S and compared it to that. The reverse and the collar die matched. There was no alteration of the date. Ergo, genuine.
T.D.
please, don't get me started with this, it would be too much fun and aggravate/anger too many people.
I had coffee break this morning with Chet Krause and Cliff Mishler (we have retirement offices in the same "strip mall" on Main St., Iola).
Cliff recalls that the artist's modification purporting to show the 1964 Peace dollar ran on the cover of Coins magazine, probably the issue dated
February, 1964.
Chet recalled having been at the Philadelphia Mint visiting Frank Gasparro and seeing him working on plaster models for the coin.
Who needs a 2nd 1964 Peace dollar to authenticate any single coin? Does that make the PCGS MS64 1870-s half dime currently "impossible" to authenticate? How has the market over the past 37 years "authenticated" this coin, as well as other unique coins like the 1873-cc NA dime, the 1907 $20 Indian J-1776, etc.?
The particular minting techniques of the US mint from decades past is pretty precise. It would take quite a set up and cash outlay to come up with all the tools and supplies to strike a "perfect" counterfeit that perfectly mirrors every US Mint technique known. The Chinese fakes are still laughable.
In the case of the 1870-S half dime, at least there is the opportunity to compare it to 1869-S and 1871-S half dimes.
But in the case of the 1964 Peace Dollar the closest thing to compare to is the 1935 issue, which was 30 years prior and the work of a different sculptor.
Without any pedigreed photos of an original 1964 Peace Dollar, there is no way to know what the sculpting nuances were for that issue. And without any original coins to compare to, there is no way to know what the luster and striking characteristic were.
Suppose that all the 1921 Morgan Dollars were melted and none were issued. But then somebody turned up with one claiming that it was a genuine original. Without any photos or genuine pedigreed examples to compare to, how would you know if it was a genuine coin, or a counterfeit that had irregularities in the sculpting/engraving ? The 1921 Morgan Dollars were entirely re-sculpted and re-engraved by Barber. Since many exist, we can see the differences in the design today. The 1964 Peace Dollars were entirely re-sculpted and re-engraved by Gasparro. We do not know what the design differences were.
The picture in John Highfill's book is NOT a 1964 Peace dollar. It is a picture of a black-and-white glossy photograph of a genuine Peace dollar
on which the art director of Coins magazine changed the date for use in the magazine.
I saw the retouched photo many times during my years with Krause Publications.
I no longer have access to the back issues of Coins so I can't say when the retouched photo was first used, but it was used in the various Krause coin periodicals from time to time.
I thought as much.
So this person telling me the story was full of it, as I suspected.
Why do people fabricate and imagine such "tall tales" ?
Do they really believe their own made-up story, or do they get some strange satisfaction from spreading such things ?
The picture in John Highfill's book is NOT a 1964 Peace dollar. It is a picture of a black-and-white glossy photograph of a genuine Peace dollar
on which the art director of Coins magazine changed the date for use in the magazine.
I saw the retouched photo many times during my years with Krause Publications.
Not good for Krause Pub., '64 Peace exist crowd.
The picture in John Highfill's book is NOT a 1964 Peace dollar. It is a picture of a black-and-white glossy photograph of a genuine Peace dollar
on which the art director of Coins magazine changed the date for use in the magazine.
I saw the retouched photo many times during my years with Krause Publications.
Not good for Krause Pub., '64 Peace exist crowd.
This is not news to those of us who have written about 1964-D Peace dollars.
Who needs a 2nd 1964 Peace dollar to authenticate any single coin? Does that make the PCGS MS64 1870-s half dime currently "impossible" to authenticate? How has the market over the past 37 years "authenticated" this coin, as well as other unique coins like the 1873-cc NA dime, the 1907 $20 Indian J-1776, etc.?
The particular minting techniques of the US mint from decades past is pretty precise. It would take quite a set up and cash outlay to come up with all the tools and supplies to strike a "perfect" counterfeit that perfectly mirrors every US Mint technique known. The Chinese fakes are still laughable.
The other 1870-S HD is buried in the cornerstone of the old SF Mint, there is one of each denom buried there.
Kevin
Why rehash this? It's been discussed ad nauseam.
The name is LEE!
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
The name is LEE!
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
PCGS will pay $10,000 for the opportunity to grade one
The name is LEE!
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
Even if five of these supposed coins were shown at the 1972 ANA, there is no guarantee or verification that the coins were actually genuine.
And
Mate.
Say, when were those counterfeit Micro O Morgans produced anyway? Certainly good enough to fool the professional grading community for a good period of time.
I am guessing the buyer(s) were fairly confident in their purchase(s).
So were the purchasers of the Micro O Morgans.
The name is LEE!
If someone stated they had a 1964-D and wanted to show me in their room, would I go?
insatiable curiosity, opportunity, yes
paranoia, general being careful, I would meet in a neutral controlled environment such as a bank, and also have a back up plan, such as a friend there, or waiting close by, or would bring my friends smith & wesson. I would also do my research first on the coin, person, and such.
I am also a bigger person, confident in my abilities in defending myself after years of training in diferent arts, even played chicken with Joe Frazier once down in Phila (I lost). So I do not worry about different scenarios, but still follow basic common sense.
I have seen some incredible collections over the years, normally it was with individuals who I had established friendships over the years, stuff of legends, normally at their house where it was secure.
I have a close friend, who during the 60s, grandfather used to take him to these underground meetings, where they would show their fantasy and sometimes illegal coins, show and tell so to speak.
I spoke to someone who I knew had one of the 1858 doubled die Lincolns, I wanted to photograph, we agreed to meet at my mother-in-laws, who was half way between us and a neutral place, he was an older gentlemen, who I did a background check before and knew he was a retired cop, so knew he was probably carrying....., it was all fine, but I told him, I hope he was not carrying a gun into the house, if my mother-in-law sees that, she would kill both of us, LOL
If your talking about Breen, I had read he did not go after young men, who could defend themselves, he went after kids. And as any parent would, they would not permit their child to go with any adult, no matter who they were, unless they were there with their child.
Kevin
Wow. Talk about perpetuating a numismatic myth with over zealous scenarios.
Do you suppose that the Langbords took such actions?
The name is LEE!
5 exist, were shown at the 1972 ANA in New York, sold for 5K each
will not be shown as they will be confiscated.
Without question they exist.
Kevin
PCGS will pay $10,000 for the opportunity to grade one
The 1974 aluminum cent is illegal to own only because the government says so. Several of these coins were distributed to U. S. Congress for review, then not all were returned, and the government did nothing to try to get them back. My opinion is that the government abandoned their interest in the coins by doing nothing to get the remaining coins back. If it came to a court case, it would be very interesting to see how it would turn out.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
In 1964, if you were a young man, and a respected coin expert invited you up to his room to show you a 1964 silver dollar, would you go
Yes, if that's all he was going to show me
The Walter Breens of the world are fortunately very rare.
In 1964, if you were a young man, and a respected coin expert invited you up to his room to show you a 1964 silver dollar, would you go
Yes, if that's all he was going to show me
The Walter Breens of the world are fortunately very rare.
An awful (but hilarious) Breen reference.
In 1964, if you were a young man, and a respected coin expert invited you up to his room to show you a 1964 silver dollar, would you go
Yes, if that's all he was going to show me
The Walter Breens of the world are fortunately very rare.
An awful (but hilarious) Breen reference.
I guess Wally was too cheap for candy. Instead of "Hey kid, want some candy?" it must have gone along the lines of "Hey kid, want to see my 1964-D Peace Dollar?"
Quick addendum . . .
I had coffee break this morning with Chet Krause and Cliff Mishler (we have retirement offices in the same "strip mall" on Main St., Iola).
Cliff recalls that the artist's modification purporting to show the 1964 Peace dollar ran on the cover of Coins magazine, probably the issue dated
February, 1964.
Chet recalled having been at the Philadelphia Mint visiting Frank Gasparro and seeing him working on plaster models for the coin.
I would love to see those plaster models as it would also end a dialogue I have had with a certain member in the past concerning what any extant 1964-D Peace Dollar looks like should one ever surface.
I wonder if the Mint still has the plaster models? Somebody want to file a FOIA request for a picture of them? Could be very handy down the road.
Anybody?
Class?
Bueller?