I just have to ask: since when are die cracks considered a "mint error"?

Pokermandude · November 13, 2015 3:56AM

Discuss.

http://www.pcgs.com/cert/28420234

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/1418216...ksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

oih82w8 · November 13, 2015 3:58AM

Must be a Dark Side thing...you might get more of a response in the World & Ancient Coins Forum?

I would not consider it an error, but I am just a little fish in the big sea of numismatics.

CaptHenway · November 13, 2015 4:10AM

Technically it is a mint error, but so amazingly insignificant that the TPG's should not acknowledge it unless it becomes a heck of a lot bigger.

Pokermandude · November 13, 2015 4:17AM

It's not a darkside thing, at least not in Canadian collecting. Die cracks have always been considered a variety at best, not errors.

ctf_error_coins · November 13, 2015 4:22AM

Since always

FredWeinberg · November 13, 2015 4:22AM

A die crack from a cracked die is an error, not a variety.

1tommy · November 13, 2015 4:46AM

Originally posted by: FredWeinberg

A die crack from a cracked die is an error, not a variety.

DennisH · November 13, 2015 4:48AM

That is the first die crack I have seen attributed by measurement. Interesting.

winky · November 13, 2015 4:58AM

Originally posted by: FredWeinberg
A die crack from a cracked die is an error, not a variety.

THANK YOU.

Pokermandude · November 13, 2015 5:38AM

It had always been my understanding that something off which happens to the dies itself, and is struck onto multiple coins in the same manner, can constitute a variety. eg die doubling, die cracks, clashed dies, die polishing.

Whereas something happening in the process of striking an individual coin, which often resolves itself before striking more coins with the same defect, would be considered an error. eg struck offcenter, strike throughs, brockages, etc.

Pokermandude · November 13, 2015 5:40AM

FWIW this is an NGC article on the subject which is mostly consistent with my understanding of the variety vs error debate

http://www.ngccoin.com/news/vi...le.aspx?IDarticle=1655

BillJones · November 13, 2015 5:41AM

I would call die cracks a die state. I don't think of them as errors.

LanceNewmanOCC · November 13, 2015 5:43AM

Originally posted by: Pokermandude

FWIW this is an NGC article on the subject which is mostly consistent with my understanding of the variety vs error debate

probably one of those iq test things whereas:

all varieties are errors but not all errors are varieties.

.

MrEureka · November 13, 2015 6:16AM

My understanding is that PCGS will not note die cracks on their labels unless you submit them as "mint errors", and pay the higher submission fee. So for the purpose of authentication and grading, the submission tier determines when die cracks are considered mint errors.

FredWeinberg · November 13, 2015 7:03AM

Andy, PCGS will not put 'die cracked' or 'die crack' on

every coin submitted under the Mint Error tier.

MrEureka · November 13, 2015 7:19AM

Originally posted by: FredWeinberg
Andy, PCGS will not put 'die cracked' or 'die crack' on
every coin submitted under the Mint Error tier.

I wasn't suggesting that they would. I'm only saying that they will NEVER put it on a label unless the coin is submitted as a mint error, even if it's from a cracked die. Am I wrong?

FredWeinberg · November 13, 2015 7:22AM

OK, got it..

You're right- they're not going to put 'die crack' on a regular submission,

CaptHenway · November 13, 2015 7:43AM

Originally posted by: DennisH

That is the first die crack I have seen attributed by measurement. Interesting.

Size matters.

LanceNewmanOCC · November 13, 2015 8:40AM

Originally posted by: BillJones

I would call die cracks a die state. I don't think of them as errors.

the question is, "if coin(s) that left the mint(s) with cracks (pre-breaks) circumventing the mints effort(s) at subjugation of said "error(s)",

just where is the line drawn on qualiry control thus making a coin an error?"

can dies or flans actually circumvent being that they inanimate objects? if we all are made of the same stuff (elementary particles or at

least sub-atomic, when does choice enter the equation)(molds, spores, virus', etc) tend to be reactionary based on proximity to other

specific defined amalgamations of matter. so, if flans are in proximity with the particulate arrangements know as homosapiens, do errors

simply occur? how close do they need to be before the errors stop and is it truly possible to separate any matter that which is arguably

interconnected across all space, dimensions and time?

ok, nuff of that.

coin(s) that are even minimally m.a.d, o/c chipped, struck-through etc etc should ALL be errors not only because of their diagnostics but

because they were erroneously released, or at least those that exceeded mint tolerances. (all others being acceptable and not errors by

standards, nit definiton?

this (mint tolerances) are political and highly subjective as complete subjugation of every coin at the level of complete strike, center,

weight, composition etc etc is simply beyond human control at the high mintages ran (by homosapien standards) and including

series/type with even lower mintages like proofs that exhibit numerous types of errors and abundantly at that given the amount produced

from the standpoint of percent of non-error to error coin ratio. - paragraph not properly worded but point is made.

breather, ugh

.

LanceNewmanOCC · November 13, 2015 8:41AM

.

awe crap. can what i typed be fully read?

a good portion is cut off. grrr

.

edited to add

should be fixed

. now.

ctf_error_coins · November 13, 2015 9:06AM

How about this:

Big huge die cracks errors can carry a nice premium while small little ones seldom do.

Nice proof die crack errors can also carry nice premiums, and silver proof ones even better.

ms70 · November 13, 2015 9:19AM

PCGS considers some die clashing a variety. That's not too much different than a die crack as far as an incident occurring at the mint goes.

19Lyds · November 13, 2015 10:09AM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

Technically it is a mint error, but so amazingly insignificant that the TPG's should not acknowledge it unless it becomes a heck of a lot bigger.

Bigger is definitely the key!

1Mike1 · November 13, 2015 10:39AM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

Originally posted by: DennisH
That is the first die crack I have seen attributed by measurement. Interesting.

Size matters.

Especially when it comes to television screens.

silverpop · November 13, 2015 2:29PM

guys why gripe about such minor things when there are major issues facing this hobby

focus here people let's get the major issues settled then worry about the minor

messydesk · November 13, 2015 2:59PM

Originally posted by: BillJones

I would call die cracks a die state. I don't think of them as errors.

This. For me, errors are transient striking mishaps, not attributes of a die.

leothelyon · November 13, 2015 3:09PM

Die cracks are unforeseeable flaws in the dies that strike the planchets.......it's going to happen. Like someone has said, it's an impossible labor to prevent such coins from reaching circulation, why give it any significance? Heavily worn dies where the original design has been almost completely obliterated from the end product, the coin, is readily found in holders and no-one has ever given such coins a 20 keystroke attention in a label. Really? And they actually measured a crack in the design. If they have this much time to give to a flaw from the production of coins, they certainly could note whether a coin is fully struck before encapsulating it with a MS66 or MS67 label.

Leo

PerryHall · November 13, 2015 6:39PM

Originally posted by: FredWeinberg

A die crack from a cracked die is an error, not a variety.

Actually, die cracks and die clashes are both varieties and an errors. They are errors because die cracks and die clashes are not an intentional part of the coin's design. They are also varieties since they are used to differentiate coins struck from different dies. As an example, many VAM varieties are identified using die cracks and/or die clashes. That said, most die cracks and die clashes are very common and don't add any value to the coin. They are however very interesting to study under magnification.

UMCane · November 14, 2015 12:07AM

I've hardly seen a Morgan WITHOUT a die crack. Sometimes to the point where one wonders what is holding the die together

Some 360 degree cracks are interesting, but as mint error? Nah

Nysoto · November 14, 2015 12:22AM

I agree that die cracks are die states, or more appropriately die stages, as they are usually a progression going through distinct stages in severity.

With early US coins, die cracks were expected, though not wanted. To call them errors is not correct as they were expected and still used long after detected. A true error would result in discarded dies by the Mint when detected, which was not done until the cracks became very large or a piece of the die fell out (cud), or if the dies cracked while hardening. Smaller cracks on dies were common and expected, and the Mint continued to use them to strike coins.

Robert Scot's words in 1795, "The Original Die being compleat, and Hubb struck; by failure in hardening it, it becomes useless immediately, or very soon so...With a compleat success in the preceding processes which has hardly ever happened, a head Die as above may be finished in a day...From the same source of uncertain decision whereby the time of executing the Dies cannot be ascertained, arises the same difficulty of determining how long they will last. Namely, the precariousness and uncertainty of hardening and tempering the Dies, whereby they are often lost without striking a single coin."

TopographicOceans · November 14, 2015 12:45AM

Well, the coin was not produced correctly and it left the mint bypassing quality control.

It's not PMD, so if you have to point the finger at someone, it would be an error at the mint.

ricko · November 14, 2015 3:13AM

Of course it is a mint error... It is a mint tool, a mint process and a mint quality issue...

Cheers, RickO

JRocco · November 14, 2015 3:19AM

Originally posted by: TopographicOceans

Well, the coin was not produced correctly and it left the mint bypassing quality control.

It's not PMD, so if you have to point the finger at someone, it would be an error at the mint.

And some are quite dramatic

MrEureka · November 14, 2015 3:24AM

Originally posted by: messydesk

Originally posted by: BillJones
I would call die cracks a die state. I don't think of them as errors.

This. For me, errors are transient striking mishaps, not attributes of a die.

I agree with Bill.

As for the "transient striking mishap" thing, not really. The striking process can go perfectly, but a pre-existing die crack will still appear on the coin.

Unknown · November 14, 2015 3:28AM

This content has been removed.

I just have to ask: since when are die cracks considered a "mint error"?

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