<< <i>"...stepping aside for a friend and collusion..."
Collusion is collusion, it really doesn't matter what you wish it was called. >>
Then you are as bat poop nutty as he is if you believe that or reading too much into his delusional ramblings.
When specialized coins that rarely come up become available everybody sees them for the most part (the e-bay/ha.com secret is out). It takes a special kind of Punk to think they are entitled to all the best ones at the expense of opportunity of their peers and friends when basically everybody can afford it and wants it. While I could entice a bidding war each and every time (as could they) I would really just alienate my friends and study group as it isn't like what coins I own are a secret. I unlike crazy Alan draw most of my enjoyment from the hobby by the people not the coins and want to see them build great collections even if they include some coins I really wanted.
The RO calls himself a whale which is a joke considering he is really just some over the hill slum lord isolationist who buys as many duds as he does winners. The people he is talking about are millionaires too so it isn't like he is pushing them out of the market, we just apparently don't care as much or at least prioritize our lives differently.
Alan really is a special kind of unstable but if any of you think his bitter ramblings (which are mostly based off of being cut off after inundating us with Questions and lies) have any validity then I encourage you to strike up a friendship with him and see his copycat narcissism up close and personal. While I am no saint and have taken some enjoyment with antagonizing him, at least my logic sense is based on reality. You will deserve what you get.
<< <i>"...stepping aside for a friend and collusion..."
Collusion is collusion, it really doesn't matter what you wish it was called. >>
Then you are as bat poop nutty as he is if you believe that or reading too much into his delusional ramblings.
When specialized coins that rarely come up become available everybody sees them for the most part (the e-bay/ha.com secret is out). It takes a special kind of Punk to think they are entitled to all the best ones at the exspence of opportunity of their peers and friends when basically everybody can afford it and wants it. While I could entice a bidding war each and every time (as could they) I would really just alienate my friends and study group as it isn't like what coins I own are a secret. I unlike crazy Alan draw most of my enjoyment from the hobby by the people not the coins and want to see them build great collections even if they include some coins I really wanted.
The RO calls himself a whale which is a joke considering he is really just some over the hill slum lord isolationist who buys as many duds as he does winners. The people he is talking about are millionairs too so it isn't like he is pushing them out of the market, we just apperantly don't care as much or at least prioritize our lives differently.
Alan really is a special kind of unstable but if any of you think his bitter ramblings (which are mostly based off of being cut off after inundating us with Questions and lies) have any validity then I encourage you to strike up a friendship with him and see his copycat narcissism up close and personal. While I am no saint and have taken some enjoyment with antagonizing him, at least my logic sense is based on reality. You will deserve what you get. >>
I thought this was just slightly immature back and forth banter between competing collectors, but it seems Crypto that you have confirmed the allegation of collusion.
I track all the coins I am interested in and the day before the auction itself, I throw in my bids - which are 75-80% of my Max Bids. I bid on line - or in person and have my remaining 20-25% available to use if I must. I have gone a bit overboard if it's something I really want.
The subtopic of collusion among collectors/ dealers should have been addressed in a separate Thread. IMHO.
Mike Hayes ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
<< <i>"...stepping aside for a friend and collusion..."
Collusion is collusion, it really doesn't matter what you wish it was called. >>
Then you are as bat poop nutty as he is if you believe that or reading too much into his delusional ramblings.
When specialized coins that rarely come up become available everybody sees them for the most part (the e-bay/ha.com secret is out). It takes a special kind of Punk to think they are entitled to all the best ones at the expense of opportunity of their peers and friends when basically everybody can afford it and wants it. While I could entice a bidding war each and every time (as could they) I would really just alienate my friends and study group as it isn't like what coins I own are a secret. I unlike crazy Alan draw most of my enjoyment from the hobby by the people not the coins and want to see them build great collections even if they include some coins I really wanted.
The RO calls himself a whale which is a joke considering he is really just some over the hill slum lord isolationist who buys as many duds as he does winners. The people he is talking about are millionaires too so it isn't like he is pushing them out of the market, we just apparently don't care as much or at least prioritize our lives differently.
Alan really is a special kind of unstable but if any of you think his bitter ramblings (which are mostly based off of being cut off after inundating us with Questions and lies) have any validity then I encourage you to strike up a friendship with him and see his copycat narcissism up close and personal. While I am no saint and have taken some enjoyment with antagonizing him, at least my logic sense is based on reality. You will deserve what you get. >>
I thought this was just slightly immature back and forth banter between competing collectors, but it seems Crypto that you have confirmed the allegation of collusion.
Thin ice you're standing on. >>
Fine call it what you will, write it down, take a picture of it. Wrap it up in a box and mail it to your loved ones I could care less. Thin Ice?? who do you think you are. People's comprehension of how to define collusion is laughable and if they think "Hey did you see xxx, ya nice coin isn't it, are you going after it? Ok Good luck." is collusion. This is a hobby you F-in morons who think the RO has a point.
To think that a small group of collectors could collude to impact the prices of a liquid series like Trade Dollars to not logical. The market is deeper than a few like minded collectors and is broader given the deep dealer universe and the thousands of other participants in every HA or Stacks auction. If they are colluding then they are doing a pretty crappy job of it as prices seem to be strong. Given the history of RO and Crypto, it would seem to be that this is more of a personal issue with Crypto than a factual claim which can be supported without a leap of faith and a personal dislike to fuel theory.
You can't believe everything you read on here. But, the fact is that amongst friends with a shared interest, they will talk about the same coins and discuss how to resolve mutual conflicts of interest. Boosbri is correct in saying that the TD market is much deeper than Crypto79 and his group of friends. Boosbri is also correct in saying that this is just mudslinging between two forum members who dislike each other intensely.
What you need to realize is that the thin market that Crypto79 and Realone are chiding each other about is just the nuanced market of TD die varieties. The number of specimens for each TD die variety almost exceeds the total number of serious active non-variety TD collectors. The market is thin from the buy and sell side. And, the two guys arguing with each are two of the main guys driving up the pricing of this obscure market.
If they both dropped out, the market would not really collapse because there is no real market to begin with. The notion of market manipulation requires that there be a real market to manipulate.
As far as Realone saying he's the savior for this market - I call BS. No way he'd pay higher pricing than he has to. If he can get the coins he wants on the cheap, wouldn't he? Wouldn't any of us? He's just sore at Crypto79 because of some ancient bad blood that doesn't seem to die away.
You can't believe everything you read on here. But, the fact is that amongst friends with a shared interest, they will talk about the same coins and discuss how to resolve mutual conflicts of interest. Boosbri is correct in saying that the TD market is much deeper than Crypto79 and his group of friends. Boosbri is also correct in saying that this is just mudslinging between two forum members who dislike each other intensely.
What you need to realize is that the thin market that Crypto79 and Realone are chiding each other about is just the nuanced market of TD die varieties. The number of specimens for each TD die variety almost exceeds the total number of serious active non-variety TD collectors. The market is thin from the buy and sell side. And, the two guys arguing with each are two of the main guys driving up the pricing of this obscure market.
If they both dropped out, the market would not really collapse because there is no real market to begin with. The notion of market manipulation requires that there be a real market to manipulate.
As far as Realone saying he's the savior for this market - I call BS. No way he'd pay higher pricing than he has to. If he can get the coins he wants on the cheap, wouldn't he? Wouldn't any of us? He's just sore at Crypto79 because of some ancient bad blood that doesn't seem to die away.
EVP >>
Incisive analysis.
Actually It would only take one buyer dropping out to "collapse" this very small collector niche. But it might not fall all that much if the second highest player is bidding against other committed collectors who have retained their interest. The seller can always set reserves. How he values his coins will be reflect the most important factor. What the third highest previous buyer might have paid. The previous second-highest buyer will bid one increment above that and the new owner of the coin, I know of a famous CCCC coin that sold in '83 for a bit less than 70K. 3 years later the owner's estate sold the coin for a bit over 40K. The same four guys in over 30K were bidding in both sales. The new owner (AJT) had predicted this exact scenario the day after he lost out in the first sale.
I'm not saying the Illuminatti plotted Mr. Ryder's death. ..
I'm just sayin' .....
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>In theory, bidders colluding to hold down the price is a per se violation of the Sherman Act. In practice, bidders who have colluded have been fined, forced to disgorge illegally obtained profits (typically they flipped the item), imprisoned, and placed on probation. Evidence of collusion is, of course, required. >>
I doubt there's been a major auction in the past 25 years where multiple dealers haven't worked as a "team" to buy more of the auction and split the proceeds, rather than compete against each other. Pretty hard to determine where it's just a couple or several people pooling resources, time, and talent or honest to goodness collusion. I've seen enough coins "split" at auctions to know it's a fairly common occurrence. At the Norweb sale in 1988 I stepped aside on a MS63 - 2nd finest known seated quarter I truly would have loved to have owned to let a fellow collector have it that needed it for his set. I already owned the finest known. It ended up going for less than I would have paid for it, though I have no clue what my friend was willing to pay for it. At one big auction in 2002 I saw a monstrous MS67 half dime go for about half of what it was worth (brought $1600). I had a bid to buy the coin in the $2500-$3000. And I was so shocked that it didn't get past $1600 on the floor that I was scared to bid figuring I missed something on it such as AT. Better safe that sorry. I learned after the sale that a small group were "split" on that lot because they saw it as a MS68 shot. And for whatever reason, no other bidder in the country was willing to take that lot up any higher towards the $2500+ wholesale level. Pretty common imo to see dealers double or triple up at auctions to compete better than if they were just going solo. They also get multiple grade opinions and minimize mistakes. I guess one can argue where the line on collusion comes in.
I tried this same theory on two properties that were adjoining mine back in 2006. I know my neighbor wanted the one closest to them very badly. Thing is, he also wanted the one closest to me. We have never got along so there was no pre-auction discussion on the bidding that followed. I ended up not bidding on the first property hoping he would "let" me have the other one. That 1st property didn't do anything for me unless I got them both. Sure enough, he wins the 1st property for the opening bid of $1500 and is all smiles. No one else bid. Only 3 of us in the room. The next one comes up and both my neighbor and bidder #3 fight like cats and dogs pushing that 2nd property up. It eventually goes to bidder #3 for $12,000 who doesn't even live in the area. He's just speculating or was out of his mind. I never raised my hand as it was obvious it was going to go well past the $5K I was willing to pay. A year or more later bidder #3 is tired of hearing complaints from my neighbor about people "dumping leaves and debris" on property #2. It became a headache for him. He tells the guy he can have it for $1500. Now my neighbor owns a double tract adjoining my property where he installed an ugly large fence to block my views. The irony of all this? He never understood the reason I failed to bid on the first property. And even after I told him I "gave him" the property on purpose he didn't believe me (ie no one does things like that). He said I didn't bid at the auction because I had no money and couldn't compete with him. Needless to say....we still don't talk.
Several years ago, I bemoaned to the good Colonel about losing out on a nice Seated Dollar to another prominent collector. The Colonel told me about the CCCC AJT story then to cheer me up as well as to give me some wisdom and perspective on this market and industry: be patient and be smart, because there will always be other opportunities even for thinly traded material.
As usual you raise an interesting point: I doubt there's been a major auction in the past 25 years where multiple dealers haven't worked as a "team" to buy more of the auction and split the proceeds, rather than compete against each other. I would think that a joint venture such as a "team" ought to be legal but then it's hard to see the difference between a joint venture and collusion. I'll ask one of my colleagues who specializes in antitrust consulting what, if anything, is the difference.
Tough luck about the lot. I hope you dump leaves and debris on it every chance you get.
I learned the hard way not to bid early. I once was the high bidder going into the Heritage auction on a beautiful 3 legged buffalo nickel. I lost out on it because in live bidding someone went just above me. The coin was in an OGH and had great toning. Hard to let go of that one.
Before the auction I like to loudly disparage the coin on the bourse floor forcing the TPG to pull out the magic felt pad. Then sit back and cackle as all the chatroom monkeys and boo birds complain about my legendary tactics.
Great topic, to tell you the truth I am secretly waiting for Crypto & Co. to respond and hear what he has to say about this subject matter due to the fact that he is the king of T$1 collusion, would never want to be on the consigning end in an auction with him and his buddies bidding
Your comprehension on many thing but specifically how auctions work is lacking. Your inability to differentiate between stepping aside for a friend and collusion is telling about the number of friends you (don't) have. Even if we were, all that would do in theory would make it cheaper for other collectors to compete. Even if I was able to control every collector who would consider bidding it would then go to the dealers and auction houses don't typically let stuff go for free or do I control them too.
Not sure why I even bother responding to that neurotic little fish.
You are responding because you feel guilty of your past activities. You have previously admitted to me when you were trying to recruit me to join your T$1 group that you are involved in a large group of T$1 collectors who all are stepping aside to allow a chosen one to get the T$1 at a drastically low price to reward their loyalty and keep purchase prices down. Since you guys aren't selling you at this time you are only interested in acquiring your T$1's at the lowest prices possible to complete your collections and that is your main motivation and justification. How can you tell me this doesn't hurt the consignor, you are effectively stopping most of the bidding since as you know Trades are pretty thinly traded to begin with and especially the varieties that you all go after and thus you are artificially not allowing the prices to go to where they had the potential of going. The consignor which could be you some day is getting hurt besides the Auction House, I know we all don't care about them but it needs to be stated. You are not putting yourself in the consignor's shoes and only thinking of yourself. You have admitted to me that you are trying to keep the prices artificially lowered so that you all can acquire the coins in your collection at cheap prices but we all know what will happen when you all decide to eventually sell your collections right? You think you will be colluding then to keep the prices low or will it be not ok then?
Look I love buying coins at low prices , who doesn't, and while there is nothing wrong with telling your friend that you will back off bidding and allow him to have it because of the close relationship, when most of the collectors are involved the word is collusion and that changes things drastically. Not only do you all collude but the added kicker is you do it forcefully with the threat of throwing the member out of the club and ridiculing them and making them pay a what you believe to be is a heavy consequence thru bullying. I never even joined your lovely group and still have to deal with the nonsense from you guys because I wouldn't go along with your planned games.But I am glad that I didn't join and go along with your clubs rules and become another collusive member, I can sleep at night knowing that I have not hurt any fellow collector who happens to be a seller. I have nothing to feel guilty about, I never joined your ranks. BTW, I am sure you don't like it when dealers collude, that is absolutely wrong in your book but collectors doing the same exact thing is fine when it comes to saving money right?
Is this not felonious behavior? People go to prison for this. Please allow the legal minds to correct this perception of wrongdoing.
For Heritage, I put a low max in during the Internet bidding and if it holds to the live session I will watch and bid live accordingly. If I'm not the high bidder after the internet bidding, I put a proxi bid in for my max and the computer will execute bids that work out to the lowest possible amount via cuts etc. Has saved me money in the long run.
I have come to despise auctions. Every time I bid on something the price goes crazy. It goes way over the previous highest prices realized, the "Coin Facts" prices ... just about any standard you can name. It can be dark side coins ... just about anything.
My strategy has been to place a very low bid at first so that I get the daily emails. Toward the end I place my high bid if I can't attend the auction in person. For some items I have placed my highest bid on the book if it a very expensive item. When the "back and forth" bidding gets to $2,500 or more being in the wrong side can be expensive.
I wish that I could buy more coins from dealers. It's much better for me in the long run.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Comments
<< <i>"...stepping aside for a friend and collusion..."
Collusion is collusion, it really doesn't matter what you wish it was called. >>
Then you are as bat poop nutty as he is if you believe that or reading too much into his delusional ramblings.
When specialized coins that rarely come up become available everybody sees them for the most part (the e-bay/ha.com secret is out). It takes a special kind of Punk to think they are entitled to all the best ones at the expense of opportunity of their peers and friends when basically everybody can afford it and wants it. While I could entice a bidding war each and every time (as could they) I would really just alienate my friends and study group as it isn't like what coins I own are a secret. I unlike crazy Alan draw most of my enjoyment from the hobby by the people not the coins and want to see them build great collections even if they include some coins I really wanted.
The RO calls himself a whale which is a joke considering he is really just some over the hill slum lord isolationist who buys as many duds as he does winners. The people he is talking about are millionaires too so it isn't like he is pushing them out of the market, we just apparently don't care as much or at least prioritize our lives differently.
Alan really is a special kind of unstable but if any of you think his bitter ramblings (which are mostly based off of being cut off after inundating us with Questions and lies) have any validity then I encourage you to strike up a friendship with him and see his copycat narcissism up close and personal. While I am no saint and have taken some enjoyment with antagonizing him, at least my logic sense is based on reality. You will deserve what you get.
<< <i>
<< <i>"...stepping aside for a friend and collusion..."
Collusion is collusion, it really doesn't matter what you wish it was called. >>
Then you are as bat poop nutty as he is if you believe that or reading too much into his delusional ramblings.
When specialized coins that rarely come up become available everybody sees them for the most part (the e-bay/ha.com secret is out). It takes a special kind of Punk to think they are entitled to all the best ones at the exspence of opportunity of their peers and friends when basically everybody can afford it and wants it. While I could entice a bidding war each and every time (as could they) I would really just alienate my friends and study group as it isn't like what coins I own are a secret. I unlike crazy Alan draw most of my enjoyment from the hobby by the people not the coins and want to see them build great collections even if they include some coins I really wanted.
The RO calls himself a whale which is a joke considering he is really just some over the hill slum lord isolationist who buys as many duds as he does winners. The people he is talking about are millionairs too so it isn't like he is pushing them out of the market, we just apperantly don't care as much or at least prioritize our lives differently.
Alan really is a special kind of unstable but if any of you think his bitter ramblings (which are mostly based off of being cut off after inundating us with Questions and lies) have any validity then I encourage you to strike up a friendship with him and see his copycat narcissism up close and personal. While I am no saint and have taken some enjoyment with antagonizing him, at least my logic sense is based on reality. You will deserve what you get. >>
I thought this was just slightly immature back and forth banter between competing collectors, but it seems Crypto that you have confirmed the allegation of collusion.
Thin ice you're standing on.
Bidding remains the topic...not co-posters' egos.
I track all the coins I am interested in and the day
before the auction itself, I throw in my bids - which
are 75-80% of my Max Bids. I bid on line - or in person
and have my remaining 20-25% available to use if I must.
I have gone a bit overboard if it's something I really want.
The subtopic of collusion among collectors/ dealers should
have been addressed in a separate Thread. IMHO.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
<< <i>Boosibri and Realone can you please stop your immature little game you're playing. You both are loosing much respect here in my opinion.
Auction basics is all dependent on the coin and finances available for me. >>
Sorry Boosibri, had you confused with someone else.
My apologies.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"...stepping aside for a friend and collusion..."
Collusion is collusion, it really doesn't matter what you wish it was called. >>
Then you are as bat poop nutty as he is if you believe that or reading too much into his delusional ramblings.
When specialized coins that rarely come up become available everybody sees them for the most part (the e-bay/ha.com secret is out). It takes a special kind of Punk to think they are entitled to all the best ones at the expense of opportunity of their peers and friends when basically everybody can afford it and wants it. While I could entice a bidding war each and every time (as could they) I would really just alienate my friends and study group as it isn't like what coins I own are a secret. I unlike crazy Alan draw most of my enjoyment from the hobby by the people not the coins and want to see them build great collections even if they include some coins I really wanted.
The RO calls himself a whale which is a joke considering he is really just some over the hill slum lord isolationist who buys as many duds as he does winners. The people he is talking about are millionaires too so it isn't like he is pushing them out of the market, we just apparently don't care as much or at least prioritize our lives differently.
Alan really is a special kind of unstable but if any of you think his bitter ramblings (which are mostly based off of being cut off after inundating us with Questions and lies) have any validity then I encourage you to strike up a friendship with him and see his copycat narcissism up close and personal. While I am no saint and have taken some enjoyment with antagonizing him, at least my logic sense is based on reality. You will deserve what you get. >>
I thought this was just slightly immature back and forth banter between competing collectors, but it seems Crypto that you have confirmed the allegation of collusion.
Thin ice you're standing on. >>
Fine call it what you will, write it down, take a picture of it. Wrap it up in a box and mail it to your loved ones I could care less. Thin Ice?? who do you think you are. People's comprehension of how to define collusion is laughable and if they think "Hey did you see xxx, ya nice coin isn't it, are you going after it? Ok Good luck." is collusion. This is a hobby you F-in morons who think the RO has a point.
And have a secondary plan in place if leaked.
Latin American Collection
You can't believe everything you read on here. But, the fact is that amongst friends with a shared interest, they will talk about the same coins and discuss how to resolve mutual conflicts of interest. Boosbri is correct in saying that the TD market is much deeper than Crypto79 and his group of friends. Boosbri is also correct in saying that this is just mudslinging between two forum members who dislike each other intensely.
What you need to realize is that the thin market that Crypto79 and Realone are chiding each other about is just the nuanced market of TD die varieties. The number of specimens for each TD die variety almost exceeds the total number of serious active non-variety TD collectors. The market is thin from the buy and sell side. And, the two guys arguing with each are two of the main guys driving up the pricing of this obscure market.
If they both dropped out, the market would not really collapse because there is no real market to begin with. The notion of market manipulation requires that there be a real market to manipulate.
As far as Realone saying he's the savior for this market - I call BS. No way he'd pay higher pricing than he has to. If he can get the coins he wants on the cheap, wouldn't he? Wouldn't any of us? He's just sore at Crypto79 because of some ancient bad blood that doesn't seem to die away.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>Guys,
You can't believe everything you read on here. But, the fact is that amongst friends with a shared interest, they will talk about the same coins and discuss how to resolve mutual conflicts of interest. Boosbri is correct in saying that the TD market is much deeper than Crypto79 and his group of friends. Boosbri is also correct in saying that this is just mudslinging between two forum members who dislike each other intensely.
What you need to realize is that the thin market that Crypto79 and Realone are chiding each other about is just the nuanced market of TD die varieties. The number of specimens for each TD die variety almost exceeds the total number of serious active non-variety TD collectors. The market is thin from the buy and sell side. And, the two guys arguing with each are two of the main guys driving up the pricing of this obscure market.
If they both dropped out, the market would not really collapse because there is no real market to begin with. The notion of market manipulation requires that there be a real market to manipulate.
As far as Realone saying he's the savior for this market - I call BS. No way he'd pay higher pricing than he has to. If he can get the coins he wants on the cheap, wouldn't he? Wouldn't any of us? He's just sore at Crypto79 because of some ancient bad blood that doesn't seem to die away.
EVP >>
Incisive analysis.
Actually It would only take one buyer dropping out to "collapse" this very small collector niche. But it might not fall all that much if the second highest player is bidding against other committed collectors who have retained their interest. The seller can always set reserves. How he values his coins will be reflect the most important factor. What the third highest previous buyer might have paid. The previous second-highest buyer will bid one increment above that and the new owner of the coin, I know of a famous CCCC coin that sold in '83 for a bit less than 70K. 3 years later the owner's estate sold the coin for a bit over 40K. The same four guys in over 30K were bidding in both sales. The new owner (AJT) had predicted this exact scenario the day after he lost out in the first sale.
I'm not saying the Illuminatti plotted Mr. Ryder's death. ..
I'm just sayin' .....
<< <i>In theory, bidders colluding to hold down the price is a per se violation of the Sherman Act. In practice, bidders who have colluded have been fined, forced to disgorge illegally obtained profits (typically they flipped the item), imprisoned, and placed on probation. Evidence of collusion is, of course, required. >>
I doubt there's been a major auction in the past 25 years where multiple dealers haven't worked as a "team" to buy more of the auction and split the proceeds, rather than compete against each other. Pretty hard to determine where it's just a couple or several people pooling resources, time, and talent or honest to goodness collusion. I've seen enough coins "split" at auctions to know it's a fairly common occurrence. At the Norweb sale in 1988 I stepped aside on a MS63 - 2nd finest known seated quarter I truly would have loved to have owned to let a fellow collector have it that needed it for his set. I already owned the finest known. It ended up going for less than I would have paid for it, though I have no clue what my friend was willing to pay for it. At one big auction in 2002 I saw a monstrous MS67 half dime go for about half of what it was worth (brought $1600). I had a bid to buy the coin in the $2500-$3000. And I was so shocked that it didn't get past $1600 on the floor that I was scared to bid figuring I missed something on it such as AT. Better safe that sorry. I learned after the sale that a small group were "split" on that lot because they saw it as a MS68 shot. And for whatever reason, no other bidder in the country was willing to take that lot up any higher towards the $2500+ wholesale level. Pretty common imo to see dealers double or triple up at auctions to compete better than if they were just going solo. They also get multiple grade opinions and minimize mistakes. I guess one can argue where the line on collusion comes in.
I tried this same theory on two properties that were adjoining mine back in 2006. I know my neighbor wanted the one closest to them very badly. Thing is, he also wanted the one closest to me. We have never got along so there was no pre-auction discussion on the bidding that followed. I ended up not bidding on the first property hoping he would "let" me have the other one. That 1st property didn't do anything for me unless I got them both. Sure enough, he wins the 1st property for the opening bid of $1500 and is all smiles. No one else bid. Only 3 of us in the room. The next one comes up and both my neighbor and bidder #3 fight like cats and dogs pushing that 2nd property up. It eventually goes to bidder #3 for $12,000 who doesn't even live in the area. He's just speculating or was out of his mind. I never raised my hand as it was obvious it was going to go well past the $5K I was willing to pay. A year or more later bidder #3 is tired of hearing complaints from my neighbor about people "dumping leaves and debris" on property #2. It became a headache for him. He tells the guy he can have it for $1500. Now my neighbor owns a double tract adjoining my property where he installed an ugly large fence to block my views. The irony of all this? He never understood the reason I failed to bid on the first property. And even after I told him I "gave him" the property on purpose he didn't believe me (ie no one does things like that). He said I didn't bid at the auction because I had no money and couldn't compete with him. Needless to say....we still don't talk.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
As usual you raise an interesting point: I doubt there's been a major auction in the past 25 years where multiple dealers haven't worked as a "team" to buy more of the auction and split the proceeds, rather than compete against each other. I would think that a joint venture such as a "team" ought to be legal but then it's hard to see the difference between a joint venture and collusion. I'll ask one of my colleagues who specializes in antitrust consulting what, if anything, is the difference.
Tough luck about the lot. I hope you dump leaves and debris on it every chance you get.
Coin Rarities Online
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
What did I do?
Well, you wrecked a pretty nice old vintage choo-choo train and a reasonably good bridge, for starters:
Tsk, tsk.
Other than that, I dunno. Stood too close to a catfight when the fur was flyin', maybe?
Oh. I know. You started this thread, so the flame war that erupted between two other parties is YOUR fault.
Tsk, tsk.
Your comprehension on many thing but specifically how auctions work is lacking. Your inability to differentiate between stepping aside for a friend and collusion is telling about the number of friends you (don't) have. Even if we were, all that would do in theory would make it cheaper for other collectors to compete. Even if I was able to control every collector who would consider bidding it would then go to the dealers and auction houses don't typically let stuff go for free or do I control them too.
Not sure why I even bother responding to that neurotic little fish.
You are responding because you feel guilty of your past activities.
You have previously admitted to me when you were trying to recruit me to join your T$1 group that you are involved in a large group of T$1 collectors who all are stepping aside to allow a chosen one to get the T$1 at a drastically low price to reward their loyalty and keep purchase prices down. Since you guys aren't selling you at this time you are only interested in acquiring your T$1's at the lowest prices possible to complete your collections and that is your main motivation and justification. How can you tell me this doesn't hurt the consignor, you are effectively stopping most of the bidding since as you know Trades are pretty thinly traded to begin with and especially the varieties that you all go after and thus you are artificially not allowing the prices to go to where they had the potential of going. The consignor which could be you some day is getting hurt besides the Auction House, I know we all don't care about them but it needs to be stated. You are not putting yourself in the consignor's shoes and only thinking of yourself. You have admitted to me that you are trying to keep the prices artificially lowered so that you all can acquire the coins in your collection at cheap prices but we all know what will happen when you all decide to eventually sell your collections right? You think you will be colluding then to keep the prices low or will it be not ok then?
Look I love buying coins at low prices , who doesn't, and while there is nothing wrong with telling your friend that you will back off bidding and allow him to have it because of the close relationship, when most of the collectors are involved the word is collusion and that changes things drastically. Not only do you all collude but the added kicker is you do it forcefully with the threat of throwing the member out of the club and ridiculing them and making them pay a what you believe to be is a heavy consequence thru bullying. I never even joined your lovely group and still have to deal with the nonsense from you guys because I wouldn't go along with your planned games.But I am glad that I didn't join and go along with your clubs rules and become another collusive member, I can sleep at night knowing that I have not hurt any fellow collector who happens to be a seller. I have nothing to feel guilty about, I never joined your ranks. BTW, I am sure you don't like it when dealers collude, that is absolutely wrong in your book but collectors doing the same exact thing is fine when it comes to saving money right?
Is this not felonious behavior?
People go to prison for this.
Please allow the legal minds to correct this perception of wrongdoing.
Collusion? After reading this thread I'd be more concerned with slander.
You mean, libel.
Did the big C get banned?
I think so.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
My strategy has been to place a very low bid at first so that I get the daily emails. Toward the end I place my high bid if I can't attend the auction in person. For some items I have placed my highest bid on the book if it a very expensive item. When the "back and forth" bidding gets to $2,500 or more being in the wrong side can be expensive.
I wish that I could buy more coins from dealers. It's much better for me in the long run.