When you purchase a coin, do you also "purchase" the photos?

braddick · September 22, 2015 11:40AM

Does a seller of a coin have the right to not release the photos of that coin? For example, a seller may offer a coin he spent considerable effort in photographing and displaying.
When the coin is sold does ownership of those pictures automatically transfer to the new buyer? Or, is that something that should be negotiated in advance?

BillJones · September 22, 2015 11:43AM

The short answer is no. You have to ask. If it is a major seller, they would be a fool to say no.

robertpr · September 22, 2015 11:44AM

Legally the ownership of the photos belongs with the photographer unless specifically negotiated.

TopographicOceans · September 22, 2015 11:45AM

No sir. The photographer retains the rights to the photos.

All the TrueView's you paid $10 for are still owned by PCGS. You paid for the service, not the rights to the pictures.

BAJJERFAN · September 22, 2015 11:47AM

Generally, pics are the property of the coin seller unless otherwise negotiated. Most people likely don't care if you save them or use them.

ronctx · September 22, 2015 11:51AM

Wait, is anyone saying that if I take the photo and the buyers wants not only the coin but the photos that were taken, then I no longer own the photos of that coin and couldn't post it on a forum? I would say he can use the photo for his use.

lkeigwin · September 22, 2015 11:58AM

The photos may be mine but I freely share them, and the right to use them, with new owners. I can't imagine it otherwise.
Lance.

CoinZip · September 22, 2015 12:01PM

<< The photos may be mine but I freely share them, and the right to use them, with new owners. I can't imagine it otherwise.
Lance. >>

fcloud · September 22, 2015 12:03PM

It is 100% up to the seller. The photographer can allow the use, but does not have to allow the use to others. If it were my coin and my photo it would depend on the situation. I have had a photo stolen and that person used the image to promote a different coin which turned out to be a deceiving ad. I have also allowed some to use my photos, and they removed my copyright from the image, so I really would need to be convinced as to why the person couldn't take their own image.

braddick · September 22, 2015 12:04PM

<< No sir. The photographer retains the rights to the photos.

All the TrueView's you paid $10 for are still owned by PCGS. You paid for the service, not the rights to the pictures. >>

This, I didn't know!
Thank you sir for sharing.

Good info!

mozin · September 22, 2015 12:21PM

<< 

<< The photos may be mine but I freely share them, and the right to use them, with new owners. I can't imagine it otherwise.
Lance. >>

>>

This is my feeling exactly.

MonsterCoinz · September 22, 2015 12:56PM

If I buy a coin on eBay and the listing explicitly says that I cannot repost the image and I decide to anyway, what punishment am I realistically going to face? A lawsuit? C'mon.

MilkmanDan · September 22, 2015 1:02PM

<< No sir. The photographer retains the rights to the photos.

All the TrueView's you paid $10 for are still owned by PCGS. You paid for the service, not the rights to the pictures. >>

Sure, PCGS owns the photos. But as PCGS stated in the original TrueView announcement press release:

"Our high-quality images will be available directly over the Internet or on a CD that can be used by dealers and auctioneers any way they wish, for print or online advertising, marketing and promotion," added Guth. "And once an image has been purchased, it is easily accessible on the Internet for future owners of the coin."

RKKay · September 22, 2015 1:03PM

<< Does a seller of a coin have the right to not release the photos of that coin? For example, a seller may offer a coin he spent considerable effort in photographing and displaying.
When the coin is sold does ownership of those pictures automatically transfer to the new buyer? Or, is that something that should be negotiated in advance? >>

<---- I sure hope the answer is no.

fcloud · September 22, 2015 1:04PM

<< If I buy a coin on eBay and the listing explicitly says that I cannot repost the image and I decide to anyway, what punishment am I realistically going to face? A lawsuit? C'mon. >>

I always find it fascinating that people think theft of some items are okay. Just because you can easily download and use a photo doesn't mean it is legal or right.

cameonut2011 · September 22, 2015 2:55PM

<< 

<< No sir. The photographer retains the rights to the photos.

All the TrueView's you paid $10 for are still owned by PCGS. You paid for the service, not the rights to the pictures. >>

This, I didn't know!
Thank you sir for sharing.

Good info! >>

With this said, PCGS has licensed them to you to use for pretty much whatever you want as per its website.

BryceM · September 22, 2015 4:06PM

<< 

<< The photos may be mine but I freely share them, and the right to use them, with new owners. I can't imagine it otherwise.
Lance. >>

>>

When I sell on the BST, I generally offer the buyer my finished composite obverse/reverse/label photos plus the high-res source photos.

tradedollarnut · September 22, 2015 4:24PM

Technically no, as a courtesy and standard practice - yes

Zoins · September 22, 2015 4:36PM

One thing to consider is that if the seller and photographer are different then the photographer may still own the photos and the seller may not have any rights to pass on rights to the buyer.

ricko · September 22, 2015 9:24PM

I purchased a coin years ago in a PCGS slab... when checking the slab, I found there were TruViews. I subsequently downloaded them and still have them. If I were selling the coin (which I never do), I would offer them to the buyer or tell her/him they were available. Cheers, RickO

jesbroken · September 22, 2015 9:40PM

If this is true that photos used to display a coin for sale are not sold with the coin, it would
be a travesty. I have never been told this by any seller of any coins I have purchased in the
last 50 years of coin collecting. If it is truly a legal point of law, then I would feel that any photo
used in the sale of a coin should be listed that it does not go with the coin and see how many sales
are lost due to technicalities. This is ridiculous, when a photo is used to sell and item it should be
the buyers to use as they please. If the photographer got no payment for his professional abilities
by the seller, then why would he/she expect any difference from the buyer and if they did, deal done.
Jim

ctf_error_coins · September 22, 2015 9:45PM

No, absolutely NOT.

Photography rights always stay with the photographer unless they sell or give them away.

RYK · September 22, 2015 10:04PM

It is such the common practice for the buyer of the coin to have the opportunity to use the seller's photographs for personal use such that if a seller does not approve of such use, he or she should indicate so in the terms of the sale. I expect that this would be the same if we were discussing a used car, a sweater, or a vintage lunchbox.

If there were an actual market for the photograph, it would not be appropriate to sell a photo of a coin that you purchased unless you have also purchased the photograph. That said, I know of no such market for coin photographs.

oih82w8 · September 22, 2015 10:21PM

I have in past purchases asked the seller if I may use their images for inventory & forum purposes...no one has said "no"...yet.

I feel that it would be at least the courteous thing to do, but not automatically assume that it would be permissible. Unfortunately it is all too easy to "sample" someone's work online and pass it off as one's own.

291fifth · September 22, 2015 10:27PM

<< Legally the ownership of the photos belongs with the photographer unless specifically negotiated. >>

This is correct.

Christos · September 22, 2015 11:08PM

<< If I buy a coin on eBay and the listing explicitly says that I cannot repost the image and I decide to anyway, what punishment am I realistically going to face? A lawsuit? C'mon. >>

First if you were to do this and the owner of the image reported your listing it would be taken down as that is ebay policy. Secondly if the owner of the image were to want to spend the money they could proceed with a lawsuit against you. Copyright laws automatically cover the image when taken by the photographer.
What you are doing is no different than a publisher not paying for the images they put in their publications and many lawsuits have happened over this exact issue. Theft is theft nomatter how inconsequential you feel it is.

derryb · September 22, 2015 11:28PM

<< Does a seller of a coin have the right to not release the photos of that coin? For example, a seller may offer a coin he spent considerable effort in photographing and displaying.
When the coin is sold does ownership of those pictures automatically transfer to the new buyer? Or, is that something that should be negotiated in advance? >>

ownership of the pictures does not transfer to the new buyer unless specifically prescribed in the sale of the coin. Legally a photograph is copyrighted to the photographer the moment he takes the photograph. Unless a copyrighted photo is illegally being used by a large profit seeking marketer, it is not worth the copyright holder's time and resources to pursue a lawsuit.

HighRelief · September 22, 2015 11:49PM

So if you pay someone to take pictures of your coins they own the rights to your pictures that you paid for? This does not make sense to me.

SeatedHalf1839 · September 22, 2015 11:50PM

Seems to me that including the photos for personal use or resale would be a reasonable courtesy.

messydesk · September 23, 2015 12:03AM

<< So if you pay someone to take pictures of your coins they own the rights to your pictures that you paid for? This does not make sense to me. >>

Coins, kids, pets, car, lunch, doesn't matter. Also doesn't matter how much was paid.

Typically, a limited use license is granted -- showing the coin to others online, using it to sell your coin, using it in a book you're writing, publishing it in a print article, for example. This may or may not include the ability to transfer the license to someone else. It will probably never include the ability to duplicate the license and allow additional parties to use it.

PollywogRancher · September 23, 2015 12:36AM

TradeDollarNut wrote

<< Technically no, as a courtesy and standard practice - yes >>

Reminds me of a guy I know who had some of his silver dollars TrueView photo'd and his wife had the pics blown up and framed for his office as a Xmas present. Perhaps HRH and a raid squad are, at a moments notice, ready to kick down his front door in order to protect PCGS' "intellectual property rights" and use this guy as an example to others considering committing this horrible crime against humanity.

derryb · September 23, 2015 12:53AM

<< So if you pay someone to take pictures of your coins they own the rights to your pictures that you paid for? This does not make sense to me. >>

Talk to a wedding photographer or a school yearbook photographer. Most of the them retain ownership of the photos and only sell copies. That way they can also sell copies to other family members. Ownership of images vs. just copies is something that has to be agreed upon at time of contracting with a photographer.

RYK · September 23, 2015 1:02AM

<< TradeDollarNut wrote

<< Technically no, as a courtesy and standard practice - yes >>

Reminds me of a guy I know who had some of his silver dollars TrueView photo'd and his wife had the pics blown up and framed for his office as a Xmas present. Perhaps HRH and a raid squad are, at a moments notice, ready to kick down his front door in order to protect PCGS' "intellectual property rights" and use this guy as an example to others considering committing this horrible crime against humanity. >>

I would guess that the publicity from such an action would virtually guarantee that no one ever orders a True View photo again.

rmpsrpms · September 23, 2015 1:07AM

Copyright laws are no joke. Coin photos are artistic creations and are protected by the same laws that protect other photos, books, trade names, songs, etc. When you have pics taken of your coins, you should be sure to get a written policy statement for use of the photo if you intend to use it beyond the "fair use" allowances, ie if you want to pass it on to a later buyer, publish it online without seeking permission, etc.

oih82w8 · September 23, 2015 1:11AM

Here is what PCGS says about TrueView images;

"What are the Terms of Use and who ‘owns' the image of the coin?
-
Note that PCGS retains the image rights to the coin and may use the imagery as we see fit. That said, you are free to use the TrueView images however you like. This may include online sales or Set Registry listings, personal photo albums, or the creation of wall art or other décor that feature your coins."

PCGS TrueView FAQ

I am thinking about doing just that, maybe some 18" x 18" of my favorites on my "I Love Me" wall.

ms70 · September 23, 2015 1:21AM

Unless someone is using their own coin photography skills to make money off the photos in and of themselves, it would be highly trivial to care if anyone uses them.

There's a few people here that made avatars out of a few of my shots. I take it as a compliment. If they didn't do that I probably would never have seen those pics again.

Christos · September 23, 2015 1:22AM

<< Copyright laws are no joke. Coin photos are artistic creations and are protected by the same laws that protect other photos, books, trade names, songs, etc. When you have pics taken of your coins, you should be sure to get a written policy statement for use of the photo if you intend to use it beyond the "fair use" allowances, ie if you want to pass it on to a later buyer, publish it online without seeking permission, etc. >>

This! As stated it is important to understand usage of the images you contract for as the image you receive may have very limited use. I bought a very nice IHC from a member that was imaged by another member and was granted permission to use that image by the photographer. I of course imaged the coin on my own but it was nice to have use of the image used to sell me the coin.

Zoins · September 23, 2015 2:07AM

<< Here is what PCGS says about TrueView images;

"What are the Terms of Use and who ‘owns' the image of the coin?
-
Note that PCGS retains the image rights to the coin and may use the imagery as we see fit. That said, you are free to use the TrueView images however you like. This may include online sales or Set Registry listings, personal photo albums, or the creation of wall art or other décor that feature your coins."

PCGS TrueView FAQ

I am thinking about doing just that, maybe some 18" x 18" of my favorites on my "I Love Me" wall.

>>

That quote is very interesting.

PCGS stated that certain uses are unauthorized here a while back. Specifically, you were not allowed to post them on a non-PCGS photo aggregation site - such as the one that was being built for Lincoln toners a while back.

It's interesting that this limitation isn't mentioned here. Has that limitation been relaxed?

When you purchase a coin, do you also "purchase" the photos?

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When you purchase a coin, do you also &quot;purchase&quot; the photos?

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When you purchase a coin, do you also "purchase" the photos?