Does an underground market exist for stolen, truly rare, US coins?
291fifth
Posts: 24,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
Apparently such a market exists in the art world but does one also exist in the coin collecting field? (I've never heard of one.)
What prompts the question is the thread about the rare Indian cent that went missing at the Baltimore show.
What prompts the question is the thread about the rare Indian cent that went missing at the Baltimore show.
All glory is fleeting.
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<< <i>Apparently such a market exists in the art world but does one also exist in the coin collecting field? (I've never heard of one.)
What prompts the question is the thread about the rare Indian cent that went missing at the Baltimore show. >>
Just like rare stolen art .. not recovered until owner's heirs try to sell the stolen goods
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<< <i>Apparently such a market exists in the art world but does one also exist in the coin collecting field? (I've never heard of one.)
What prompts the question is the thread about the rare Indian cent that went missing at the Baltimore show. >>
Just like rare stolen art .. not recovered until owner's heirs try to sell the stolen goods >>
or the shoebox in the closet is opened, or the dresser is moved., etc.
obviously there are markets for stolen everything, including people. this is earth, "no holds barred."
from my understanding, the fallen personally see to it.
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<< <i>Apparently such a market exists in the art world but does one also exist in the coin collecting field? (I've never heard of one.)
What prompts the question is the thread about the rare Indian cent that went missing at the Baltimore show. >>
for coins that are truly UNrare, the stolen market may not even be underground.
You used to be able to take the engine out of an expensive older vehicle and put it into container B at the port and weren't even challenged on your manifest. Both containers went out under "misc. Parts".
I really feel for Rick Snow. When we used to do car shows, albeit the dollar figures were much lower on items than coin shows, several adjoining vendors would pay for "a watcher". Sure cut down our pilferage.
When the real one came in, the guy who had it was from Vegas! I found my old notes about the earlier call and gave them to the FBI. Turned out the guy had been offered the genuine but hot coin!
<< <i>Not being an expert lol but for specially Corvettes and expensive cars (and equipment) I have heard a lot ends up in So. America.
You used to be able to take the engine out of an expensive older vehicle and put it into container B at the port and weren't even challenged on your manifest. Both containers went out under "misc. Parts".
I really feel for Rick Snow. When we used to do car shows, albeit the dollar figures were much lower on items than coin shows, several adjoining vendors would pay for "a watcher". Sure cut down our pilferage. >>
A watcher...... that sounds like a great idea ......!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I have a 1968 Shelby GT500, Arrest Me Red, value north of 100K.
My insurance is pretty cheap, EXCEPT for the theft portion. The car has to be locked up at all times, unless I am driving, or in a car corral at a show. I cannot drive to a restaurant and leave it in the parking lot, Home Depot, etc.
There are only a few of them, and all the VIN's are known, but stolen and put in a container overseas is the real issue.
It realistically could not be sold in this country, and even in a "private collection" could not really make it out on the street, so, yes, the concern is of the private "collection".
Anyone remember the Eiger Sanction, the price was art.
<< <i>I have a 1968 Shelby GT500, Arrest Me Red, value north of 100K. >>
Arrest Me Red.... That was funny!
291Fifth: <<Apparently such a market exists in the art world but does one also exist in the coin collecting field? (I've never heard of one.)>>
My guess is that there are markets elsewhere in the world, particularly in South America, the Middle East and the Far East for rare art and some kinds of jewelry. I doubt that many people in those places are interested in gem quality half dimes or Proof 1864-L Indian cents. I have been writing about coin auctions and valuable rarities for more than twenty years. I am not aware of any such "underground market" for rare U.S. coins.
Captain Henway alluded to the DuPont coins. Ed Rochette reported, IIRC, that the thieves came by DuPont's house in a somewhat random manner; the thieves were not seeking rare coins and they did not know that there were any rare coins in that house. They probably never even heard of the DuPont family. My guess is that, in many cases, thieves end up with coins unintentionally when they are seeking jewelry, bullion, or other items that they can easily fence.
As for thefts of rarities at coin shows, my guess is that many of the perpetrators have severe psychiatric problems. But, I am just guessing. If anyone has solid information regarding this topic, I may wish to write about it. Also, I believe that the publisher of CoinWeek would be more than willing to post images of stolen coins along with phone numbers of respective law enforcement authorities.
insightful10@gmail.com
I thought the name Shelby was last used in 1967 and 68 forward they were referred to a Cobras because Carroll Shelby disassociated from the car after 67. Do I have it wrong. My next door neighbor has a Gt500 & Gt350 from 69 and be calls them Cobras.
Hoard the keys.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
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<< <i>I have a 1968 Shelby GT500, Arrest Me Red, value north of 100K. >>
Arrest Me Red.... That was funny!
That made me chuckle also. Nice car! 3 of the 4 vehicles I've owned have been red. I like red no matter what color it is.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Type2: <<As long as there are buyers there will be black markets and it's not just coins ...>>
I question this statement. So called 'black markets' have active participants who are aware of each other and wish to do business in an orderly fashion. In a black market, stolen items are sold for more than just a small fraction of their respective retail value in a 'white market.'
In more than twenty years of covering auctions and private sales of rarities, I have not come across any evidence of a black market in rare U.S. coins. The thieves often just haphazardly walk into coin stores, pawn shops, antique stores or flea markets.
Please read my post above to this thread. Do any members of this forum really have evidence or a good reason to believe that a black market exists for rare U.S. coins? If so, I would like to write about this topic.
insightful10@gmail.com
Coin Rarities & Related Topics: 1856-O Double Eagles and other Great Rarities that I have seen
<< <i>In more than twenty years of covering auctions and private sales of rarities, I have not come across any evidence of a black market in rare U.S. coins. >>
a quick google search and here ya go...
i just don't think you've researched this much...is all
a fence who got caught
here's a quick screenshot that is cropped
From the article cited by LasVegasTeddy: <<During the course of the investigation, officials say, [the suspect] was recorded buying thousands of dollars worth of purportedly stolen merchandise that included watches, gold and silver rings, coins, necklaces, and other valuables.
The cited article is not relevant to my point or to the topic of this thread, "Does an underground market exist for stolen, truly rare, US coins?"
The 'fence' who was caught was buying a wide variety of stolen items from street thieves; it is unlikely that he was making a market in stolen "truly rare U.S. coins" or very valuable gem quality classic U.S. coins. Would he even know how to identify a Proof 1864-L Indian Cent?
In black markets for antiquities and famous paintings, there are collectors and dealers who knowingly trade stolen rarities at levels that constitute a significant percentage of the retail values of such rarities. Further, there is an element of organization in such black markets. I theorize that no such black market exists for truly rare coins or widely demanded condition rarities, like those in the set of Walkers that will be auctioned at he ANA Convention:
Assortment of Rare U.S. Coins to be offered in ANA Platinum Night Auction
1856-O Double Eagles and other Great Rarities that I have seen
<< <i>From the article cited by LasVegasTeddy: <<During the course of the investigation, officials say, [the suspect] was recorded buying thousands of dollars worth of purportedly stolen merchandise that included watches, gold and silver rings, coins, necklaces, and other valuables.
The cited article is not relevant to my point or to the topic of this thread, "Does an underground market exist for stolen, truly rare, US coins?"
>>
hmm if that's how you see that...uh ok
thieves in his hood would bring stolen coins most likely some rare ones too and he'd buy them
it looks like a black market and a fence right there to me
If such an underground market for really rare coins exists I am sure it is well organized, managed at the highest level under the tightest of security, trusted soldiers, and marketed to special known clientele who know what the penalty is for asking questions or revealing the source. If you can visulize a guys getaway briefcase hidden away in his home with an automatic pistol, ammo, cash, credit cards, and probably 100 slabs in storage boxes - most likely generic Double Eagles or rolls of AGE, AGB. I do not believe for the most part they would want anything really rare which could be traced easily or attract attention. For this reason, I believe non traceable, highly liquid bulk material (rolls of AGE, AGB) would be more popular.
The best miscreants, murderers, ne'er-do-wells, and low-lifes NEVER GET CAUGHT! That is why they are GOOD AT WHAT THEY DO! They have no desire to be recognized by you or anyone else . . . they seek profit or some other motivator . . . but it ISN'T your approval!
The underground market for coins is certainly in full swing. No, neither of the owners of the 64-D Peace seek your attention or approval. No, those who dispose of high-ranking stolen coins do not seek your pat on the back.
Of course this market exists. But don't expect them to want a Merit Badge and public acclaim. For some of you, unless this is documented, substantiated, and tax-ID numbers and Social Sec. authentications are verified by each and every one of you, along with photos of each stolen item, placed on a newspaper of appropriate date, and directions to where the coin may be found . . . . . you won't possibly believe it.
Oh yes . . . it exists . . .
Drunner
(Disavowing all knowledge of anything.)
<< <i>Type2: <<As long as there are buyers there will be black markets and it's not just coins ...>>
I question this statement. So called 'black markets' have active participants who are aware of each other and wish to do business in an orderly fashion. In a black market, stolen items are sold for more than just a small fraction of their respective retail value in a 'white market.'
In more than twenty years of covering auctions and private sales of rarities, I have not come across any evidence of a black market in rare U.S. coins. The thieves often just haphazardly walk into coin stores, pawn shops, antique stores or flea markets.
Please read my post above to this thread. Do any members of this forum really have evidence or a good reason to believe that a black market exists for rare U.S. coins? If so, I would like to write about this topic.
insightful10@gmail.com
Coin Rarities & Related Topics: 1856-O Double Eagles and other Great Rarities that I have seen >>
I don't think they will want to talk about it to any one it's just how it is. Black, Gray, and even white some will not talk about it.
Hoard the keys.
<<Oh yes . . . it exists . . .Drunner (Disavowing all knowledge of anything.)>>
After more than twenty years of writing about rare U.S. coins and developing a diversity of sources of information, my working hypothesis is that such a semi-organized black market does not exist.
Generally, when rare coins are stolen, the thieves do not understand what they have stolen. They do not know how to sell such stolen rarities for even 10% of retail values. They tend to take them to randomly selected coin & bullion stores, second-rate antiques dealers or pawn shops. In some cases, unethical proprietors of coin stores try to peddle rare coins that they think might have been stolen. But, this does not happen very often and rarities are often recovered by law enforcement agencies.
In 2008, a postal employee in Delaware stole at least two registered mail packages that were being sent from a well known coin firm on the West Coast to a firm in Delaware. The matter was reported in Coin World and NN.
Postal worker charged in thefts
<<Among the items [the defendant] allegedly stole was a rare 1907 rolled-edge Indian Head $10 gold coin said to be worth $275,000. ... he took the coins to Diamond State Coins & Currency in Booth's Corner (Pa.) Farmers Market.>>
So, according to an article in NN (which I did NOT write), the thief brought rare coins to a bullion dealer at a "Farmers Market"? Would anyone there pay even $2750, 1% of the reported value of one of the stolen coins? I doubt it.
Zoins: <<How many truly rare US coins are missing and could be part of this theoretical market? >>
Over the last twenty years, so few "truly rare U.S. coins" have been stolen that it is unlikely that a semi-organized black market, where people pay more than 15% of retail values, exists. The few thefts really seem to be anomalies or cases where the thieves were seeking gold coins for their bullion value. Not long ago, an 1870-CC Double Eagle was stolen. It had been shipped from PCGS to Heritage via Brinks.
In January 2008, Chris Napolitano was robbed while leaving the FUN Convention. As far as I know, the rarities taken have never been recovered. While I hope that rarities were not melted, it is realistic to consider the possibility that they were melted. It would be tragedy to melt an 1843 Proof set, including copper, silver and gold!
According to Numismatic News, the theft<< included a 1795 two leaves $1, a 1798 Large Eagle $1, 1795 50 cent, 1918/7-D nickel, an 1836 Gobrecht $1, 1842 $1, 1803/2 $5, 1923-D $20, 1799/8 $1, 1852-O $20, 1877-S $10, 1857-O $5, 1913-D $20, 1853-O gold $1, 1797 half dime with 13 stars.>>
If any forum member is quietly offered coins that might have been included in this heist, he should contact Napolitano or the FBI.
1856-O Double Eagles and other Great Rarities that I have seen
insightful10@gmail.com
<< <i>My working hypothesis is that such a semi-organized black market does not exist. >>
This can't be proven one way or the other. My own belief is that a black market for fine art exists, and that it has probably handled rare coins from time to time as well. Don't forget about ancient and foreign coins.
<< <i>What is it , exactly, that you have for sale? >>
post of the day
Analyst, as cited by CoinOsaurus: << My working hypothesis is that such a semi-organized black market does not exist. >>
CoinOsaurus: <<This can't be proven one way or the other. My own belief is that a black market for fine art exists . ..>>
I said earlier in this thread that such a black market exists in fine art. Although I do not now have immediate access to the details of various criminal proceedings and other legal cases regarding allegedly stolen fine art, my guess is that the existence of a semi-organized, black market in fine art, especially concerning paintings by famous artists, has been proven. Effort by Interpol, Scotland Yard and other relevant law enforcement authorities in this regard must be successful sometimes; a number of those involved in organizations that deliberately handle stolen paintings, and sell them for a significant % of retail values, must have been apprehended.
Please consider one of my statements above, <In black markets for antiquities and famous paintings, there are collectors and dealers who knowingly trade stolen rarities at levels that constitute a significant percentage of the retail values of such rarities. Further, there is an element of organization in such black markets. I theorize that no such black market exists for truly rare coins or widely demanded condition rarities, like those in the set of Walkers that will be auctioned at he ANA Convention.>
CoinOSaurus<<... probably handled rare coins from time to time as well. Don't forget about ancient and foreign coins. >>
I apologize for not making clear that I was referring to rare U.S. coins, especially classic U.S. coins. I am under the impression that this thread is about rare U.S. coins. Was anyone suggesting otherwise?
I agree with CoinOsaurus that ancient coins are a different matter. In the field of ancients, it is much easier to cloak pedigrees and there are many important pieces that have not been publicly offered over the past 175 years.
insightful10@gmail.com
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<< <i>What is it , exactly, that you have for sale? >>
post of the day
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Mission16: <<Pretty naive to think there wouldn't be one, I would think. >>
In this thread, I have already provided logical reasons and examples to indicate that it is unlikely that there is such a market. In cases mentioned above, the thieves did not understand what they took; their efforts to fence rare U.S. coins involved bullion stores, pawn shops and low-echelon antiques dealers; there is no evidence that the thieves received more than a very small % of the retail value of the respective stolen rare U.S. coins.
Unlike buyers of painting and jewelry, many U.S. coin collectors tend to build sets, which are defined, more or less, by widely accepted rules. Although there are collectors who knowingly buy stolen paintings, it is much less likely that collectors would knowingly add stolen rare U.S. coins to their sets and pay a substantial % of retail levels for them!
I will concede that there will always be people who will knowingly pay microscopic percentages of retail levels for stolen rare U.S. coins or any stolen valuables. But, such payments would not be evidence of a semi-organized black market.
Does Mission16 really believe that someone would knowingly pay $2 million for a stolen 1804 dollar, if an 1804 dollar was recently stolen? Of course, it is possible that someone would, but I doubt it.
There is also the international 'issue'! Most of the demand for expensive rare U.S. coins comes from collectors in the U.S., and even those buyers outside of the U.S. tend to wish to travel to the U.S. for numismatic purposes.
Art is a whole different matter. There are collectors all over the world who want famous Impressionist paintings, such as those by Renoir. Many of them do not feel a need to ever go to France. In my mind, it would be unsurprising that there are some collectors who will knowingly pay 25% to 60% of the retail value of a stolen famous painting. I would be very surprised if there are such collectors who would make similar payments, as a % of retail, for famous and rare U.S. coins that the buyers know to have been stolen.
After analyzing auctions for more than twenty years, having written multiple articles about coin doctoring, and having interviewed players in the coin business who engage in unethical behavior (or worse), I am a little surprised that my views on this matter are being referred to as naive.
It would be naive to think that collectors in South America, Eastern Europe, Africa or Asia will pay even 20% of retail prices for stolen, Proof U.S. Capped Bust half dimes! In contrast, it is very plausible that some collectors around the world would knowingly pay 40% of retail for famous European paintings that are widely reported as having been stolen. Does Mission16 or do other contributors to this thread really disagree with me on this point?
In Feb. 2011, I listed about all U.S. coins that had, by then, sold for more than $2 million each; I had examined most of them.
insightful10@gmail.com
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Say someone were capable pf getting into and out of the vaults at the Smithsonian: Take just a couple of "box of twenty" kind of coins; unique, irreplacable stuff. Do you suppose that capable someone would have any problem disposing of them for a considerable sum?
Maybe "black market" is the wrong term for such a transaction. "Market" denotes back and for selling of items. Items like this would sit in someones mansion for years or decades, solely for thier pleasure. They would not be concerned with selling them so no market, per se.
TwoSides2aCoin <<Truly rare U.S. Coins ? Underground they're counterfeited and then marketed around the world. So the answer is "yes", looking at them from that perspective. >>
Forgeries of rare U.S. coins are not rare U.S. coins, IMO. Moreover, what is meant by "marketed around the world"? Is TwoSides talking about forgeries that are represented as genuine items, obvious replicas that are sold as such, or deceptive forgeries that are represented as stolen genuine rarities?
Mission16: <<I guess my definition of truly rare may differ from most.>>
What is your definition? I attempt to employ the concept of rarity in a very consistent manner, though this is not easy. Numismatists use the term 'rare' in many different contexts. A coin is extremely rare if fewer than one hundred exist in all grades, including all die pairings and other minting varieties.
Are Many Classic U.S. Coins Common?
Mission16: <<.... the vaults at the Smithsonian: Take just a couple of "box of twenty" kind of coins; unique, irreplacable stuff. Do you suppose that capable someone would have any problem disposing of them for a considerable sum?
This depends upon what is meant by "a considerable sum." On PCGS CoinFacts, the unique 1849 double eagle pattern is valued at "$20 million." For sake of argument, let us please use this value. It would seem to be worth more than the Carter 1794 silver dollar. Would anyone pay $2 million for it? If there is such a person, would the thieves really be able to find him and effect a transaction? I doubt both points.
Would it even be fenced for $200,000, 1% of a fair retail value? If there was a black market for U.S. rarities, it would sell there for millions, but there probably is not such a market!
The Top Ten Auction Records for Coins & Patterns
I]Mission16: <<And $2 million for a priceless coin like you [Analyst] mention would be quite reasonable to expect. >>
Do you really think so? There are a small number of coins that have sold at auction for more than $2 million each.
The Top Ten Auction Records for Coins & Patterns
The most recent $2milllion+ coin was the Hayes 1808 QE in the very highly publicized Pogue I sale. This was a strong price. There might have been only two or three people who were willing to pay that much.
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 4: 18th Century Rarities Lead First Auction
So, for Mission16 to be correct, and he might very well be correct, at least three conditions would have to be met:
1) There would have to be at least one person who would pay $2 million for the Smithsonian 1849 double eagle if it was stolen, assuming that news of such a theft would be widely publicized.
2) The buyer would have to find out about the thieves and believe in them. Who would make the introduction?
3) The buyer would have to be able to communicate with the thieves in a private manner.
In Europe, the business practices of known thieves and of crooked collectors are probably often tracked by law enforcement authorities. In the U.S., I do not believe there is any such relevant black market for them to track. People who buy diamonds or Jackson Pollack painting are not going to spend $2 million on a coin.
The probability of the first condition being met is very low. The probability of all three conditions being met is very close to zero, IMO.
There is a darkness world that I have seen first hand. Part of it involved antiquities coming out of Iraq, weaponry, and other items. For the right money, introductions can be made, and material procured.
One of the "wake up in a cold sweat at 3 am" events is recalling, while in a country nominally called our ally at that time, where we were EMPHATICALLY told to STAY OUT OF LOCAL ISSUES was seeing a woman who was sold for debts, amounting to about $2000 US, but in that area, it was YEARS of wages, being literally dragged off and beaten. We think slavery has not existed for a 100 + plus years, but I saw it first hand.
Dick Meadows was a good friend of mine, and he did live in the black world. He "operated" in Tehran during the hostage crisis, and he went where the US officially never was. Some of his accounts would chill anyone to the bone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Meadows
If someone "fancied" an item and had something of great value that someone else wanted, items can be procured.
And if so, what's their phone number?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
MustangMan: <<There is a darkness world that I have seen first hand. Part of it involved antiquities coming out of Iraq, weaponry, and other items. For the right money, introductions can be made, and material procured.>>
Please read my posts above again. I did not say that thefts of truly rare coins are impossible. Indeed, I mention specific instances of thefts occurring. If the thieves are able to sell the stolen goods at all, they tend to sell for a very small % of retail values, often to people who do not know what they are buying or who will buy most any expensive stolen good for much less than 1% of retail value. Such transactions are not relevant to the people who supposedly pay $1 million to $10 million each for famous paintings that the buyers know have been stolen
I said that there is no organized or semi-organized black market for truly rare U.S. coins in the sense that such markets probably exist for famous paintings and antiquities. Does MustangMan disagree with my point here?
Such black markets are characterized by collectors who are willing to knowingly pay a substantial % of retail values for items the buyers know to be stolen. For a price, could some organized figures, or people who them, finance a heist? Yes, but this is not relevant to the topic of this thread. Besides, it is unlikely that someone considering such a caper will go after rare U.S. coins. It would be relatively easier to steal jewels and famous painting in other parts of the world.
There is no semi-organized black market for the coins that are in Platinum Night and Rarities Night events:
Rare U.S. Coins Moderate to Strong in Platinum Night Auction; Markets Remain Stable
Rare & Exciting “1825/4/1” Half Eagle in ANA Auction