Would You Like to See a Large Cent in MS-70?

BillJones · May 5, 2015 3:44AM

Here it is!

Before you get too excited this 1820 large cent was graded MS-70 back in the days before the Sheldon scale was applied to anything beyond large cents. Of all the numbers in the Sheldon scale MS-70 is the only number that denotes a lesser coin then than it does now. The "70" number referred to market value, which was equal to the basal value (barely identifiable as to the die variety, but not damaged) times the grading number. In Sheldon's system an MS-70 coin was worth 70 times the basal value, which was the highest score, at least at first.

Later Sheldon tried to keep his system alive by multiplying the basal value X grade point by a factor of three or four for pieces in the condition census. (The finest know examples for a given variety.). The Sheldon system never worked over the long haul, and is now only used for numerical grading.

This coin came from the Naftzger Collection. Nafrzger collected the best of the best, and this was one of the best 1820 N-13 that he had seen. This is a Randal Hoard variety, and it is quite common on Mint State, BUT most 1820 N-13's don't look like this piece. Nafrzger noted that on the envelope. The 1820 N-13 is the most common Randal Hoard coin.

This was another of my EAC convention purchases. I'm dipping my feet into the large cent market to see if I might get interested in forming large cent date collection.

PCGS only graded this piece MS-65, R&B. It is R&B, but the grade is higher than 65. In the same deal I bought an 1817 large cent in MS-66 that is not as nice.

Here is the Naftzger envelope.

keyman64 · May 5, 2015 3:48AM

Cool post and nice coin as always.

coinpictures · May 5, 2015 4:02AM

And here I thought that when I opened the thread I'd see a picture of a large cent floating in a bowl of MS70...

Stuart · May 5, 2015 4:04AM

Bill, That's a beautiful Big Penny!!

-- I love the complete obverse peripheral die crack connecting all of the stars.

Thanks for sharing her and your story with us.

golden · May 5, 2015 4:06AM

<< Here it is!

Before you get too excited this 1820 large cent was graded MS-70 back in the days before the Sheldon scale was applied to anything beyond large cents. Of all the numbers in the Sheldon scale MS-70 is the only number that denotes a lesser coin then than it does now. The "70" number referred to market value, which was equal to the basal value (barely identifiable as to the die variety, but not damaged) times the grading number. In Sheldon's system an MS-70 coin was worth 70 times the basal value, which was the highest score, at least at first.

Later Sheldon tried to keep his system alive by multiplying the basal value X grade point by a factor of three or four for pieces in the condition census. (The finest know examples for a given variety.). The Sheldon system never worked over the long haul, and is now only used for numerical grading.

This coin came from the Naftzger Collection. Nafrzger collected the best of the best, and this was one of the best 1820 N-13 that he had seen. This is a Randal Hoard variety, and it is quite common on Mint State, BUT most 1820 N-13's don't look like this piece. Nafrzger noted that on the envelope. The 1820 N-13 is the most common Randal Hoard coin.

This was another of my EAC convention purchases. I'm dipping my feet into the large cent market to see if I might get interested in forming large cent date collection.

PCGS only graded this piece MS-65, R&B. It is R&B, but the grade is higher than 65. In the same deal I bought an 1817 large cent in MS-66 that is not as nice.

Here is the Naftzger envelope.

>>

TopographicOceans · May 5, 2015 4:29AM

Great coin. Those die cracks seem to be common on these large cents. I've got one as well

guitarwes · May 5, 2015 4:34AM

Pushing 200 years old and is still a knockout. Very nice preservation for that copper. We have genuine numismatists to thank for that. We have a responsibility to do the same for appreciative coin collectors 200 years from now.

Tibor · May 5, 2015 4:43AM

Our host graded this coin MS 65 RB, what grade does an experienced
grader from the EAC give it? Most cases the EAC is much more conservative.

BillJones · May 5, 2015 4:49AM

<< Our host graded this coin MS 65 RB, what grade does an experienced
grader from the EAC give it? Most cases the EAC is much more conservative. >>

I don't see how this coin could grade any lower than MS-65, R&B even by EAC standards. EAC member Bill Noyes, who is a "brutal grader" would probably say MS-63 or 62. I have a 1794 large in a PCGS MS-62, brown holder than he calls EF-45.

My grade is AU-58.

It was interesting to note that in the EAC auction sale there were some copper coins that received the same EAC grade and slab grade. There were not a not lot of them, but a few.

Walkerguy21D · May 5, 2015 5:15AM

<< Would You Like to See a Large Cent in MS-70? >>

I'm just glad you weren't going to show someone soaking a large cent in MS70!

All kidding aside, that is another very nice specimen, Bill.

PreTurb · May 5, 2015 5:20AM

And, apparently with provenance to the Sloss collection sale... cool!

rays · May 5, 2015 5:28AM

Here's my 1820 N-13. It resides in a PCGS MS65 RB holder since 2005; the photo was taken by Heritage when it was in an NGC MS65RB holder and it is redder and more lustrous than the photo depicts, but not as nice as the OP's coin. The OP's coin looks like a 66RB if the lustre is there.

oih82w8 · May 5, 2015 5:54AM

I have always liked that complete radial crack through the stars.

Very nice and drool-worthy!

Sonorandesertrat · May 5, 2015 5:59AM

<< And, apparently with provenance to the Sloss collection sale... cool! >>

Interesting. Naftzger bought a number of collections of large cents, just to get a small number of coins. The ones he didn't want were consigned by him to Abe Kosoff (Numismatic Gallery), using the names of the original owners. The bulk of the Sloss collection was auctioned off in 1959. Someone needs to write an essay (short book) on Naftzger, his copper and gold collections, and his run-ins with people like Sheldon and Bass.

I am glad to see that Bill Jones has the envelopes.

MsMorrisine · May 5, 2015 6:11AM

I'd like to get graders notes from the EAC guys.

rays · May 5, 2015 6:53AM

<< Someone needs to write an essay (short book) on Naftzger, his copper and gold collections, and his run-ins with people like Sheldon and Bass. >>

It would make for very interesting reading.

Here is a short article written by Alan Weinberg upon Ted's passing in 2007:

R.E. NAFTZGER, JR. 1925-2007

Many thanks to Alan V. Weinberg, who compiled, fact-checked and wrote the following submission about one of the top collectors of U.S. coins, who recently passed away. -Editor.
R.E. (Roy E.) "Ted" Naftzger, Jr. of Beverly Hills, CA, a well known and highly respected numismatist of some 60 years died of age-related causes on or about October 28, 2007. He was 83 years old. The family had not notified the numismatic press and the news spread slowly around the community. At the recent Early American Coppers show in Dallas someone noted that Ted's death was mentioned in a Stanford alumni list.

"Ted" Naftzger, as he was widely known, was a pre-eminent numismatist along the lines of Eric Newman in that his collecting interests extended back to the mid 1930s. His early contacts with major dealers like Abe Kosoff and Abner Kreisberg yielded many classic coin treasures and enabled him to build magnificent complete collections of early U.S. gold (it is said Ted owned two ultra-high relief $20's at one time), half cents and, I believe his first love, large cents. Ted had extensive financial interests in real estate and cattle ranches both foreign and domestic. But he was not always a wealthy man as he told me, over my kitchen table in 1996, that he had to take out a loan on his house to afford a complete collection of $10 and $20 gold pieces back in the late 1940's.

I distinctly recall him telling me that back about 1938 he ordered an 1867 rays proof nickel for around $100 from a major coin dealer in one of his first mail purchases. He received what he perceived to be an Unc and tried for an entire year to get a refund. He finally obtained it, but he never did business with that dealer again. The dealer fairly recently admitted to me his frustration in losing decades of profitable business with Ted.

Ted was a trusting gentleman. Stories abound. Rick Coleman, a half cent collector virtually unknown to Ted at the time, wrote to him inquiring about the availability of a particular pedigreed Unc 1793 half cent. Ted up and mailed him the half cent for examination, uninsured in a first class envelope! Apparently Ted's trust extended to the US Post Office! I personally had never done business with Ted before and knew him only by reputation when at 4PM New Year's Eve 1996 he drove out to my home, some 40 miles away, in a beat-up old station wagon. As he pulled up, I thought "Gee, can't the guy afford a newer car?" At my kitchen table as New Year's Eve events approached, he offered me a Gem Unc S-1 Chain cent (ex Tom Elder estate circa 1946 at $1000) and a choice AU S-1A cud Chain cent (ex-Garrett/Johns Hopkins University). This was in response to my classified ad in Penny-Wise, which has got to qualify as one of the most extraordinary opportunities to extend from a classified ad!

I couldn't afford them and declined. He offered me "terms" - Terms? What terms? Two years, no interest. No down payment! I couldn't refuse. My wife arrived home while Ted was still there and gave me the "evil eye" - "How much did you just spend?"

Ted & I shook hands, I accepted the coins and Ted was walking to the front door. "Wait a minute! Don't you want something in writing from me? No, I trust you." Stressing that something can happen to one of us, I gave Ted something in writing. Talk about trust!

But Ted's trust extended a bit too far in one historic transaction. In the 1970s, he bought Dr William H. Sheldon's large cent collection for about $300,000. It turned out that, decades later, many of the coins were discovered to have been switched out of ANS and probably some switched or stolen out of T. James Clarke's magnificent large cent collection and the Anderson Dupont large cents (both of which it is alleged Dr Sheldon "tampered" with).

Because Ted was such a serious "gotta have it" collector and perhaps because the ANS was advised of the switched large cents starting in 1973-74 and never pursued the issue for another two decades, Ted felt safe in retaining the coins and eventually selling many of the coins in one huge transaction in 1992 to Eric Steiner, then-youthful NYC dealer.

The coins were subsequently resold and traded into many different collections and the result was a years -long legal battle in civil court between the ANS and Ted and other innocent 3rd party collectors. This issue took a health and financial toll on Ted (approximately $1 million in costs) from which he would not recover.

But his name will live on with the likes of Mickley, Bushnell, Stickney, Dunham, Norweb, Garrett, Ford, Starr, Col. Green, Boyd and others.

rays · May 5, 2015 7:03AM

<< Our host graded this coin MS 65 RB, what grade does an experienced
grader from the EAC give it? Most cases the EAC is much more conservative. >>

It is curious that EAC vs market grading varies between circulated and uncirculated large cents.

In grades 1-15, they will oftentimes be the same or vary by one increment.
In grades 20-58, there can be discrepancies of up to 30 points (usually higher market grades than EAC).
In grades 60-70, sometimes the EAC grade is higher than the market grade, as Sheldon heavily based his mint state grades upon the amount of remaining mint red. For example. I have seen EAC graded 67 coins that were market graded 65RB, and EAC 65 coins market graded MS64RB. Similarly, I have seen many more market graded coins at 65 or even 67 BN that are EAC graded 60+ because they have no mint red (no matter how nice the surfaces).

The OP coin based upon the images supplied looks like an MS65 coin by EAC standards.

leothelyon · May 5, 2015 7:10AM

MS-65? When you sell this coin just ask for MS67 money. I'm certain and you likely know better than I that collectors/buyers who recognize it for what it is, the best they have ever seen end up with the best, it's that simple. Let them take the risks with repeated submissions, harsh environments and unnecessary handling. Otherwise, enjoy the coin's qualities.

Wabbit2313 · May 5, 2015 8:13AM

Nice coin and it looks better than a 65 to me. The 70 grade might be a bit of a stretch!

DeliaBug · May 5, 2015 8:50AM

<< I'd like to get graders notes from the EAC guys. >>

Not sure if you are aware but EAC sells EAC Grading Guide

DeliaBug · May 5, 2015 8:54AM

<< 

<< And, apparently with provenance to the Sloss collection sale... cool! >>

Interesting. Naftzger bought a number of collections of large cents, just to get a small number of coins. The ones he didn't want were consigned by him to Abe Kosoff (Numismatic Gallery), using the names of the original owners. The bulk of the Sloss collection was auctioned off in 1959. Someone needs to write an essay (short book) on Naftzger, his copper and gold collections, and his run-ins with people like Sheldon and Bass.

I am glad to see that Bill Jones has the envelopes. >>

I have a copy of the Sloss sale and just checked and lot 140 it seems this exact coin is described "1820 N13, Gem MS70 Mint Red". It is not plated though. The lot managed to sell for a whopping $31.