If I understand your post the seller/owner/board member sold you the coins.
Maybe the seller/owner/board member had every intention to insure that the coins were to be insured but his son apparently erred in not doing that if he was the one who shipped..
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
There are several possibilities with this failure delivery depending on what was supposedly "sent".
The "seller" was careless in shipping, with either some thief working for the usps invited to steal the contents as gold coins are the easiest for criminals to fence (not likely).
In this case he is losing not just the package contents but his reputation to sell.
If he shipped "air" then he was defrauding a customer, the BST system, and potentially the usps as they don't appreciate scammers especially when they make false claims.
Let's hope this is just an inexperienced seller and the certified coins show up lost somewhere.
Seller may have outside insurance company. PayPal may refund both parties but will record the action. Should you have another issue you may lose PayPal and ebay privledge . With no reason give. And no one to talk with Should have made effort to save the other coin. Postman could swipe third coin now? Let us know how u make out. Good luck
Somehow I get the wierd feeling this is going to end badly
I once got the front 3/4 of the front page of my Coin World,,,, the part with my address on it in a plastic bag stating arrived at USPS sort facility and damaged. The USPS was sorry for this or something to that effect. Never did get the rest of it. Started paying an extra $20 per year to have my Coin World plastic wrapped after that. That never used to happen until they kept going to thinner and thinner paper to save a few bucks. The cover use to be much heavier paper than the rest of the magazine. Coin World saves on printing but I pay for extra wrapping.
So normal procedure is to put a note with a damaged or opened item and put it in a bag and note the damage.
As I said earlier it seems strange that the carrier accepted the package into his possession.
I thought the carriers sorted their own mail but maybe not all of it but I would be having the Post Office investigate the chain of possession along the line.
As stated many times the OP was smart in refusing delivery and will get his money back but this is a very sickening situation and I am sure the seller will be talking to the son and reviewing proper mailing and insuring procedures. I find it hard to believe that an experienced seller would ship $3,000 worth of coins with no insurance. Sounds like the son screwed up?
GrandAm
edited to add:
Were these raw coins? I have seen no reference to that but if slabbed the cert numbers should be posted so people can watch out for the missing coins.
<< <i>That is a shame that one bad apple can ruin the whole bag. I will start being very careful on the BST from now on. >>
There are been a few issues, not just one. This is from bestday's earlier post:
<< <i>BST is becoming a minefield for deals this year ....1st was silver eagle taking $350 without delivering the coins , another was a seller sending worthless coins to buyer instead, of the Morgans purchased ,,now this .. probably some others just not wanting lime light >>
FWIW, I fully intend to continue buying & selling on the BST. Not one of my buyers has ever had an issue with the delivery of the coins I have shipped. I will simply be more discerning with whom I send money to for purchasing purposes.
If you weren't home that day, it seems it was quite possible for the postman to stick that package in your mail box and drive away (ie item "delivered"). My local PO has had so many screw ups over the years that I got a PO Box in the next town over. Problem solved. I haven't done an Ebay or BST coin transaction in years....and probably a good thing too.
Dave Wnuck. Redbook contributor; long time PNG Member; listed on the PCGS Board of Experts. PM me with your email address to receive my e-newsletter, and visit DaveWcoins.com Find me on eBay at davewcoins
It really bothers me to hear of issues on the BST.... I have used it on many occasions and always successfully. I sure hope it continues to be a trusted venue... Cheers, RickO
So, no resolution attempts on the seller's part, other than to try to absolve himself from responsibility behind Paypal's claim process. The USPS website shows proof of delivery refusal. I've provided photos of the package's condition when delivery was attempted and immediately refused. He is obviously trying to shirk his responsibility to do the right, honorable thing... not the kind of person I want to do business with. At this point, I'll be happy to provide name, location and ID to anyone else who wishes to inquire via PM.
I don't see this as my issue with the USPS. I didn't sign for the package, therefore the onus is on the sender to deal/seek recompense for any damages due to possible post office mishandling or malfeasance.
Personally, I question why, if any postal malfeasance was involved, would they leave one gold coin worth over $1000 in the package? This nagging piece leads me to believe that the sender only shipped one coin. There was no foul play on the USPS workers. The envelope ended being ripped/pulled open by handling machinery, and even though the envelope was parted open and contents exposed, no USPS employee tampered or stole the contents. Thats just what the evidence points to... I was simply dealing with a bad apple.
If a postal employee did take the coins, then a good cover would be to leave one of them in the package as "proof" it wasn't the USPS. Assume nothing. Maybe they left the smallest gold coin in the package figuring it was the least valuable one????
<< <i>I don't see this as my issue with the USPS. I didn't sign for the package, therefore the onus is on the sender to deal/seek recompense for any damages due to possible post office mishandling or malfeasance.
Personally, I question why, if any postal malfeasance was involved, would they leave one gold coin worth over $1000 in the package? This nagging piece leads me to believe that the sender only shipped one coin. There was no foul play on the USPS workers. The envelope ended being ripped/pulled open by handling machinery, and even though the envelope was parted open and contents exposed, no USPS employee tampered or stole the contents. Thats just what the evidence points to... I was simply dealing with a bad apple.
'dude >>
Take the tracking # down to your P.O. and ask them to run it. They should be able to access more info from their system than is generally available to people/customers using their online site. Hopefully they have the weight of the package recorded there. A slabbed coin in a Safe T mailer inside a bubble pack envelope is usually less than 3 ounces.
I am not so hot on the computer. How do I PM CharlotteDude if there is no PM function? I would like to know the person in question as I like buying on the BST. Thanks
<< <i>So, no resolution attempts on the seller's part, other than to try to absolve himself from responsibility behind Paypal's claim process. The USPS website shows proof of delivery refusal. I've provided photos of the package's condition when delivery was attempted and immediately refused. He is obviously trying to shirk his responsibility to do the right, honorable thing... not the kind of person I want to do business with. At this point, I'll be happy to provide name, location and ID to anyone else who wishes to inquire via PM.
regards,
'dude >>
This seller Needs to be outted for all to see . if someone not aware of this thread and did not do a PM , down the road another forum member may get victimized again This seller already told the OP to kiss it ...amazing how some forum members are so docile
There is no way the post office would have accepted that envelope torn like that. My money is on the USPS mishandling this package and the coins falling out or stolen. I am not sure why the buyer here is worried given everything I see above.
I don't have anything to add in the sense of how to handle things from here, as it looks like the pertinent facts have come to light regarding how the package was shipped, its lack of insurance, etc. I do believe you are entitled to a refund and the onus is on the seller to make you whole; having to go to PayPal should be unnecessary. Unless there's an obvious scam (in this case, I would say that bar hasn't been met--it looks more like an unfortunate incident), I like to give the seller the benefit of the doubt. In light of that, a few thoughts:
1- Many sellers use private insurance instead of USPS insurance, and subsequently packages come without the insurance label or extra postage. With mine, for example, I can send up to $2500 by First Class Mail if it has a signature. While this package was slightly above my limit, that could have been a difference in how policies are written. Rather than start with "the package was sent uninsured as promised" I would have confirmed whether private insurance may have been used. My insurance (and I suspect most others', as well) forbids any note of insurance on the outside of the package.
2- As a seller, I can't tell you how much I hate dealing with PayPal's (or eBay's) resolution/claims systems. As soon as a case opens, the seller loses options for how to handle a case. My read of your story is that you immediately opened a claim, rather than give the seller a chance to make it right. I'm not saying wait a week, but at least a short amount of time to let the seller do the right thing without PayPal being brought in. There have been times where I'd have been happy to offer a refund, but with the way a case was opened, I couldn't. Or times where I could, but with the fund transfer times, letting me wait a day to receive a payment to fund the refund would have saved multiple more days of waiting for the refund to clear.
Again, I realize in this case both #1 and #2 ended up going against the seller, so you could say it's a moot point, but I still like to think I'm dealing with good people and at least give them a chance to act accordingly before being strong-armed into it.
<< <i>There is no way the post office would have accepted that envelope torn like that. My money is on the USPS mishandling this package and the coins falling out or stolen. I am not sure why the buyer here is worried given everything I see above. >>
Agreed , one can almost understand why the seller or sender might cop an attitude if they know the coins were in fact sent and they are being made out to be a thief or "bad apple". Very poor shipping skills is what it looks like and it explains why there was still a 1k coin inside.
Your package would have been registered/insured box-in-a-box if you had ordered your gold coins from me,charlottedude.As a seller,the less I have to worry about the buyer's package while in the custody of the post office,the better.It's worth a few extra bucks for some peace of mind sometimes.
It's on the seller to fix this problem.You should be okay at the end of the day.
A package of $3000+ value gets sent USPS first class/signature confirmation in a bubble mailer?What kind of maroon seller does this?
Having over $500 value coin(s) to send and considering the thievery going on in the post office these days? It's a no-brainer.Send via registered mail.Even the most sticky-fingered worker there won't mess with registered mail.
I realize hind-sight is crystal clear but next time confirm that the seller is sending your $3000 package via registered mail,charlottedude.I would insist on registered as a buyer even if I had to pay the seller extra for postage.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
<< <i>There is no way the post office would have accepted that envelope torn like that. My money is on the USPS mishandling this package and the coins falling out or stolen. I am not sure why the buyer here is worried given everything I see above. >>
Usually that kind of damage happens AFTER the carrier leaves for his route. The USPS should not let a carrier leave with a package in that condition. Years ago, I foolishly sent rolls of state quarters in just such a manner and some broke open in the carrier's bag.
I had a problem with a package sent to me using Priority mail. The package mail and scanned as being delivered, but I never received the package. I sent a claim to paypal. They concluded that because the package was scanned as being delivered that it was delivered to may address. Claim denied by Pay Pal, claim denied by USPS. Out $141.00. No recourse.
I never ship coin in envelopes. NEVER. Small shipments go in small flat boxes. I recommend a third party insurance , like ship and insure or something like that.
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
<< <i>That package looks like it was pulled apart to me and not simply came unglued or fell apart?
GrandAm >>
Yep, my first thought was internal theft after seeing the way the packaging didn't look torn. Rather, it appears to have been spread open like a sandwich.
<< <i>That package looks like it was pulled apart to me and not simply came unglued or fell apart?
GrandAm >>
Yep, my first thought was internal theft after seeing the way the packaging didn't look torn. Rather, it appears to have been spread open like a sandwich. >>
If it was theft , presumably USPS ? , why leave a 1k coin behind still in the envelope ? It's not going to disguise anything , oh there's a 1k coin left so therefore ... its more likely the envelope was burst , good chance those coins might show up yet.
All I can say is that when I ship anything of value I am *paranoid* something will happen to it. I have a personal rule that anything above $1500 goes registered mail, and anything below that and above $20 (the maximum I'm willing to eat) gets insured, regardless of cost, no exceptions. I figure $25 for registered and $5 - $8 for insured first class and charge accordingly, unless the negotiated price is for 'shipped' in which case I gladly pay for the shipping to those standards.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
<< <i>That package looks like it was pulled apart to me and not simply came unglued or fell apart?
GrandAm >>
Yep, my first thought was internal theft after seeing the way the packaging didn't look torn. Rather, it appears to have been spread open like a sandwich. >>
If it was theft , presumably USPS ? , why leave a 1k coin behind still in the envelope ? It's not going to disguise anything , oh there's a 1k coin left so therefore ... its more likely the envelope was burst , good chance those coins might show up yet. >>
Roadrunner said it best on this issue imo:
<<If a postal employee did take the coins, then a good cover would be to leave one of them in the package as "proof" it wasn't the USPS. Assume nothing. Maybe the left the smallest gold coin in the package figuring it was the least valuable one????>>
What seems fishy to me is that the carrier claimed to not notice this issue when accepting the package for delivery on his route? I know my local post office carriers sort their own packages before they load them on the mail bus for delivery. If I was the carrier, I would not have left the station with that package. It would have been turned over to my supervisor.
I've used those bubble mailers on occasion, but always reinforce every edge with packing tape. I normally just stick with the flat rate Priority boxes. No excuse for not having insurance on a 3K package.
Oh, and BTW 100
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
Lot of fingers pointed, with NO REAL evidence, at the USPS/driver/sorter/etc.
The entire nut of this seems to be: Buyer did NOT get coins and seller did NOT do due diligence with packaging and insurance.
That's it, right there. Speculate all you want (this forum is good about that) but it appears that seller told buyer there would be insurance and, when issue came up, seller says there isn't any (I am aware of private insurance and am going buy what was said rather than guessing from the package). Seller used woefully poor packaging and is being bit in the butt from that. Seller is also not who seller was supposed to be (ie.....buyer thought it was forum member but appears to be forum member's son....and that didn't come up until after issue happened).
Comments
Maybe the seller/owner/board member had every intention to insure that the coins were to be insured but his son apparently erred in not doing that if he was the one who shipped..
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
GrandAm
The "seller" was careless in shipping, with either some thief working for the usps invited to steal the contents as gold coins are the easiest for criminals to fence (not likely).
In this case he is losing not just the package contents but his reputation to sell.
If he shipped "air" then he was defrauding a customer, the BST system, and potentially the usps as they don't appreciate scammers especially when they make false claims.
Let's hope this is just an inexperienced seller and the certified coins show up lost somewhere.
Somehow I get the wierd feeling this is going to end badly
So normal procedure is to put a note with a damaged or opened item and put it in a bag and note the damage.
As I said earlier it seems strange that the carrier accepted the package into his possession.
I thought the carriers sorted their own mail but maybe not all of it but I would be having the Post Office investigate the chain of possession along the line.
As stated many times the OP was smart in refusing delivery and will get his money back but this is a very sickening situation and I am sure the seller will be talking to the son and reviewing proper mailing and insuring procedures. I find it hard to believe that an experienced seller would ship $3,000 worth of coins with no insurance. Sounds like the son screwed up?
GrandAm
edited to add:
Were these raw coins? I have seen no reference to that but if slabbed the cert numbers should be posted so people can watch out for the missing coins.
<< <i>That package looks like it was pulled apart to me and not simply came unglued or fell apart?
GrandAm
The Cheapest mailing envelope around... no insurance , sent 1st class..... seller should just bend over for the Paypal massage
Or... no one home .. time to out to seller
Gives BST a bad stain
Another reason to ship coins either Priority/Insured in Priority Box or Registered/Insured
<< <i>Pitchfork at the ready, whats the username?
__________
__________}________________
__________} >>
<< <i>I'm sure several people have already used the tracking number in the pic to establish everyone's identy. >>
Tracking numbers do not provide identity.
<< <i>That package looks like it was pulled apart to me and not simply came unglued or fell apart? >>
Much easier to just open the flap and re-close it. All bubble wrap envelopes should have their flaps taped closed before mailing.
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
That might explain some of my recent grading results though
GrandAm
edited to add:
I am surprised that nobody has commented on the package sitting in the USPS drivers lap?
Might be something valuable in that one?
On 2nd thought that is probably a registry set certificate.
<< <i>That is a shame that one bad apple can ruin the whole bag. I will start being very careful on the BST from now on. >>
There are been a few issues, not just one. This is from bestday's earlier post:
<< <i>BST is becoming a minefield for deals this year ....1st was silver eagle taking $350 without delivering the coins , another was a seller sending worthless coins to buyer instead, of the Morgans purchased ,,now this .. probably some others just not wanting lime light >>
'dude
dude
Latin American Collection
Thanks B -
'dude
<< <i>Dang Steve, bummer. Very constructive handling of the issue. >>
I too am impressed with the way Steve handled this….class act.
After a couple exchanges, his reply was that he was going to provide Paypal his "side of the story" and that we would "see what happens".
Sure sounds like an indication of intent.
I hope you get made whole on this.
I knew it would happen.
regards,
'dude
Personally, I question why, if any postal malfeasance was involved, would they leave one gold coin worth over $1000 in the package? This nagging piece leads me to believe that the sender only shipped one coin. There was no foul play on the USPS workers. The envelope ended being ripped/pulled open by handling machinery, and even though the envelope was parted open and contents exposed, no USPS employee tampered or stole the contents. Thats just what the evidence points to... I was simply dealing with a bad apple.
'dude
<< <i>I don't see this as my issue with the USPS. I didn't sign for the package, therefore the onus is on the sender to deal/seek recompense for any damages due to possible post office mishandling or malfeasance.
Personally, I question why, if any postal malfeasance was involved, would they leave one gold coin worth over $1000 in the package? This nagging piece leads me to believe that the sender only shipped one coin. There was no foul play on the USPS workers. The envelope ended being ripped/pulled open by handling machinery, and even though the envelope was parted open and contents exposed, no USPS employee tampered or stole the contents. Thats just what the evidence points to... I was simply dealing with a bad apple.
'dude >>
Take the tracking # down to your P.O. and ask them to run it. They should be able to access more info from their system than is generally available to people/customers using their online site. Hopefully they have the weight of the package recorded there. A slabbed coin in a Safe T mailer inside a bubble pack envelope is usually less than 3 ounces.
<< <i>Click the tiny gold icon that looks like a lock in his post >>
Thanks
<< <i>So, no resolution attempts on the seller's part, other than to try to absolve himself from responsibility behind Paypal's claim process. The USPS website shows proof of delivery refusal. I've provided photos of the package's condition when delivery was attempted and immediately refused. He is obviously trying to shirk his responsibility to do the right, honorable thing... not the kind of person I want to do business with. At this point, I'll be happy to provide name, location and ID to anyone else who wishes to inquire via PM.
regards,
'dude >>
This seller Needs to be outted for all to see . if someone not aware of this thread and did not do a PM , down the road another forum member may get victimized again
This seller already told the OP to kiss it ...amazing how some forum members are so docile
<< <i>They do weigh the envelopes, not sure if that helps. >>
Only the sender gets a copy of the mailing receipt with the package weight on it. The USPS shud have it in their system tho.
There is no way the post office would have accepted that envelope torn like that. My money is on the USPS mishandling this package and the coins falling out or stolen. I am not sure why the buyer here is worried given everything I see above.
1- Many sellers use private insurance instead of USPS insurance, and subsequently packages come without the insurance label or extra postage. With mine, for example, I can send up to $2500 by First Class Mail if it has a signature. While this package was slightly above my limit, that could have been a difference in how policies are written. Rather than start with "the package was sent uninsured as promised" I would have confirmed whether private insurance may have been used. My insurance (and I suspect most others', as well) forbids any note of insurance on the outside of the package.
2- As a seller, I can't tell you how much I hate dealing with PayPal's (or eBay's) resolution/claims systems. As soon as a case opens, the seller loses options for how to handle a case. My read of your story is that you immediately opened a claim, rather than give the seller a chance to make it right. I'm not saying wait a week, but at least a short amount of time to let the seller do the right thing without PayPal being brought in. There have been times where I'd have been happy to offer a refund, but with the way a case was opened, I couldn't. Or times where I could, but with the fund transfer times, letting me wait a day to receive a payment to fund the refund would have saved multiple more days of waiting for the refund to clear.
Again, I realize in this case both #1 and #2 ended up going against the seller, so you could say it's a moot point, but I still like to think I'm dealing with good people and at least give them a chance to act accordingly before being strong-armed into it.
<< <i>There is no way the post office would have accepted that envelope torn like that. My money is on the USPS mishandling this package and the coins falling out or stolen. I am not sure why the buyer here is worried given everything I see above. >>
Agreed , one can almost understand why the seller or sender might cop an attitude if they know the coins were in fact sent and they are being made out to be a thief or "bad apple". Very poor shipping skills is what it looks like and it explains why there was still a 1k coin inside.
It's on the seller to fix this problem.You should be okay at the end of the day.
A package of $3000+ value gets sent USPS first class/signature confirmation in a bubble mailer?What kind of maroon seller does this?
Having over $500 value coin(s) to send and considering the thievery going on in the post office these days? It's a no-brainer.Send via registered mail.Even the most sticky-fingered worker there won't mess with registered mail.
I realize hind-sight is crystal clear but next time confirm that the seller is sending your $3000 package via registered mail,charlottedude.I would insist on registered as a buyer even if I had to pay the seller extra for postage.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
<< <i>There is no way the post office would have accepted that envelope torn like that. My money is on the USPS mishandling this package and the coins falling out or stolen. I am not sure why the buyer here is worried given everything I see above. >>
Usually that kind of damage happens AFTER the carrier leaves for his route. The USPS should not let a carrier leave with a package in that condition. Years ago, I foolishly sent rolls of state quarters in just such a manner and some broke open in the carrier's bag.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
Small shipments go in small flat boxes.
I recommend a third party insurance , like ship and insure or something like that.
<< <i>That package looks like it was pulled apart to me and not simply came unglued or fell apart?
GrandAm
Yep, my first thought was internal theft after seeing the way the packaging didn't look torn. Rather, it appears to have been spread open like a sandwich.
<< <i>
<< <i>That package looks like it was pulled apart to me and not simply came unglued or fell apart?
GrandAm
Yep, my first thought was internal theft after seeing the way the packaging didn't look torn. Rather, it appears to have been spread open like a sandwich. >>
If it was theft , presumably USPS ? , why leave a 1k coin behind still in the envelope ? It's not going to disguise anything , oh there's a 1k coin left so therefore ... its more likely the envelope was burst , good chance those coins might show up yet.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>That package looks like it was pulled apart to me and not simply came unglued or fell apart?
GrandAm
Yep, my first thought was internal theft after seeing the way the packaging didn't look torn. Rather, it appears to have been spread open like a sandwich. >>
If it was theft , presumably USPS ? , why leave a 1k coin behind still in the envelope ? It's not going to disguise anything , oh there's a 1k coin left so therefore ... its more likely the envelope was burst , good chance those coins might show up yet. >>
Roadrunner said it best on this issue imo:
<<If a postal employee did take the coins, then a good cover would be to leave one of them in the package as "proof" it wasn't the USPS. Assume nothing. Maybe the left the smallest gold coin in the package figuring it was the least valuable one????>>
What seems fishy to me is that the carrier claimed to not notice this issue when accepting the package for delivery on his route? I know my local post office carriers sort their own packages before they load them on the mail bus for delivery. If I was the carrier, I would not have left the station with that package. It would have been turned over to my supervisor.
Some people lack basic common sense
Oh, and BTW 100
The entire nut of this seems to be:
Buyer did NOT get coins and seller did NOT do due diligence with packaging and insurance.
That's it, right there. Speculate all you want (this forum is good about that) but it appears that seller told buyer there would be insurance and, when issue came up, seller says there isn't any (I am aware of private insurance and am going buy what was said rather than guessing from the package). Seller used woefully poor packaging and is being bit in the butt from that.
Seller is also not who seller was supposed to be (ie.....buyer thought it was forum member but appears to be forum member's son....and that didn't come up until after issue happened).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment