Rejoined Collectors Club, Cracked Out 3 PQ+ PCGS (1 NGC) Coins to Send in, and Got 4 DOWNGRADES

dragon · March 19, 2015 10:34AM

Coin 1) Cracked out a really sharp 1921-P Morgan PCGS MS65 that I felt was really nice for the grade and should at least go 65+, now it a 64

Coin 2) Cracked out a really sharp fully prooflike 1921-D Morgan that was nearly a borderline DMPL as 21-D's go, lost the PL and it dropped a full grade point too. This one was a previous NGC 64PL and PCGS 64PL.

Coin 3) A super nice 1880-S in a 66 PCGS holder that had extreme cameo contrast and 10+ eye appeal, should've at least gone 66+, was also a previous NGC 66+*, just got graded a 65.

Coin 4) Another super nice heavy cameo 1880-S that was also a 66 that is as nice or better than 5 or 6 other 80-S coins I have in 67. This one seemed to be an easy upgrade. Just got graded 65+.

And to add insult to injury, this little ordeal cost me over $200.00 with the round trip postage in addition to these ridiculous grades (downgrades). In 28+ yrs. of submitting and occasionally resubmitting coins to PCGS, I've only once many years back had a coin downgrade only later to go back up 2 points. When I just checked online and saw the grades my first response was I pulled up the wrong page or something, then I just sat here in disbelief with a rapid heartbeat. I feel like I've just been the victim of a 3rd party grading crime, gross incompetence, or maybe just 4 clerical errors. Talk about a waste of time AND money. I'll post pics when they return unless I'm banned beforehand. I am SO done with PCGS.

joebb21 · March 19, 2015 10:37AM

Would love to see pics!

Justacommeman · March 19, 2015 10:38AM

That was painful to read.

Mark

MsMorrisine · March 19, 2015 10:38AM

gra-de-flation?

coinkat · March 19, 2015 10:48AM

What was the objective/strategy behind spending $200 on submission fees for these?

BloodMan · March 19, 2015 10:53AM

Look on the bright side, at least there were no details graded coins. I have cracked out multiple straight graded coins only to have then returned cleaned. Getting them back into straight graded holders took several more submissions. Sorry to say this, but that is the chance you take when you play the game.

leothelyon · March 19, 2015 10:55AM

<< What was the objective/strategy behind spending $200 on submission fees for these? >>

They're weren't worthy GPA coins, I mean.......pop tops.

SeattleSlammer · March 19, 2015 10:58AM

Why not just reconsider service so you don't lose the grade?
Please PM me with those 80-S deals for sale (or not deals....seriously I love cams).

Wabbit2313 · March 19, 2015 10:58AM

And everyone keeps posting thread after thread that PCGS is not conservative. They must not be submitting coins. If I crack and OGH dollar and send it in these days, it goes down 8 out of 10 times. Yes, I tracked it.

If you go find my half dime post, you will see PCGS 66+ and CAC calls it a gold. Case closed.

Ablinky · March 19, 2015 11:21AM

Ouch, that's really rough.

Shortgapbob · March 19, 2015 11:23AM

Just part of the grading process. I've seen dealers at shows grade coins harshly when in a bad mood and grade the same coins much more liberally when in a positive mood. It's just the human element of grading.

Everytime a coin comes out of the holder, there is risk. Some work, some don't.........and some work after enough submissions!

Broadstruck · March 19, 2015 11:30AM

On a positive note it's good to hear grading is tightening up in this new era.

mercurydimeguy · March 19, 2015 11:36AM

<< On a positive note it's good to hear grading is tightening up in this new era. >>

On certain material, been tight for at least 6 months.

I've had a couple tougher date $20 Libs come back XF40 with full luster and nice crust. XF40? My 14 year old non numismatist daughter could have graded it XF. Anyhow, it's their prerogative on how to grade...and on the bright side I'm at like close to 80% sticker rate at CAC so at least I know I'm not a complete idiot (maybe partial).

Anyhow, truly freshly graded material (e.g. sent raw, not regrades) in certain issues is definitely undergraded....in a few years people will be looking for cert #'s from the past 6 months as they'll be good crackout material

PS. Just sent in some coins myself (3 orders) so I'll see how I fare...

Crazy4Coins · March 19, 2015 11:37AM

I feel your pain. Sat starring at the screen in disbelief quite a few times myself. I have several hundred more coins sat aside to be sent in. Not sure if it is even worth it now.

blu62vette · March 19, 2015 11:40AM

Coin 2) Cracked out a really sharp fully prooflike 1921-D Morgan that was nearly a borderline DMPL as 21-D's go, lost the PL and it dropped a full grade point too. This one was a previous NGC 64PL and PCGS 64PL.

This kills me.

MsMorrisine · March 19, 2015 11:41AM

<< On a positive note it's good to hear grading is tightening up in this new era. >>

Maybe pcgs got them wrong. Maybe dragon did.

We need pics!

Musky1011 · March 19, 2015 11:42AM

Gambling sometime you win.. Sometime you lose..

winky · March 19, 2015 11:43AM

I can't stand that at all.

jcping · March 19, 2015 12:10PM

Ouch, this hurts but this is part of crack out games. You can't expect all graders see your coins the same way

66WhiteFBL · March 19, 2015 12:12PM

<< Why not just reconsider service so you don't lose the grade?
Please PM me with those 80-S deals for sale (or not deals....seriously I love cams). >>

I agree. Reconsideration service would have eliminated all those downgrades.

Ajjohnson77 · March 19, 2015 12:34PM

I keep telling you guys this is how things are going at PCGS these days. Their grading opinions are aweful.

BAJJERFAN · March 19, 2015 12:42PM

<< And everyone keeps posting thread after thread that PCGS is not conservative. They must not be submitting coins. If I crack and OGH dollar and send it in these days, it goes down 8 out of 10 times. Yes, I tracked it.

If you go find my half dime post, you will see PCGS 66+ and CAC calls it a gold. Case closed. >>

And grading remains an opinion and not a fact.

coinguy1989 · March 19, 2015 12:50PM

This thread is worthless without pictures. I might very well agree with the OP; or the OP might have been very unfortunate to have purchased overgraded coins. It is hard to say.

Justacommeman · March 19, 2015 12:53PM

<< I keep telling you guys this is how things are going at PCGS these days. Their grading opinions are aweful. >>

Yah, the submitters should just be able to tell PCGS what the grades should be since they are more qualified. Problem solved. Anyways they have been brutal on commems lately as well.

Mark

keyman64 · March 19, 2015 12:57PM

Ouch!

Doesn't sound like a risk I would have taken. I would have likely just sent them to a sticker company or in for reconsideration if I felt so sure. Good luck getting them back into the holders you desire.

BryceM · March 19, 2015 1:01PM

If you've gone through submissions over 28 years with only one previous downgrade it's probably just the law of averages catching up with you........

I can never understand why people crack out coins and then complain when the grade drops. Anyone who has been around the block a few times should know a single grading event is about as predictable as the stock market. When you crack a coin, four things can happen and three of them are bad:

1) Upgrade - good!
2) No change - you're out the grading fee - bad.
3) Downgrade - you've lost the previous grade and the grading fee - bad.
4) No grade / details grade - well, this one just really sucks.

TwoSides2aCoin · March 19, 2015 1:13PM

In the circle of trust they call that "steppin' on your dick".

lkeigwin · March 19, 2015 1:18PM

<< Why not just reconsider service so you don't lose the grade?
Please PM me with those 80-S deals for sale (or not deals....seriously I love cams). >>

Not reconsideration. That's for saving the slab. You mean regrade.
Lance.

keyman64 · March 19, 2015 1:18PM

<< If you've gone through submissions over 28 years with only one previous downgrade it's probably just the law of averages catching up with you........

I can never understand why people crack out coins and then complain when the grade drops. Anyone who has been around the block a few times should know a single grading event is about as predictable as the stock market. When you crack a coin, four things can happen and three of them are bad:

1) Upgrade - good!
2) No change - you're out the grading fee - bad.
3) Downgrade - you've lost the previous grade and the grading fee - bad.
4) No grade / details grade - well, this one just really sucks. >>

5) No grade change BUT loss of a designation such as PL, DMPL, FB, FS, FH, FBL (this happened to me the ONE time I tried on a Merc and I lost the FB)

PascoWA · March 19, 2015 1:28PM

Ouch

habaraca · March 19, 2015 2:04PM

You drinks the cool aid....

sometimes you gets the squirts....

habaraca · March 19, 2015 2:05PM

habaraca · March 19, 2015 2:08PM

relicsncoins · March 19, 2015 2:42PM

That sucks. It would be an interesting experiment to take 4 coins and submit them 4 different times and see the range of grades they receive.

BigMoose · March 19, 2015 7:50PM

dragon, you just happened to catch the trough of the sine wave curve of coin grading. It happens to everyone at one time or another if you submit enough coins.

keets · March 19, 2015 8:13PM

1. there is risk involved with every submission.
2. with a crack-out that risk is increased.
3. multiple opinions on multiple coins seems to be a search for the highest possible result.
4. a re-grade submission would probably have been a safer compromise.
5. given the many negative responses directed toward the grading room at PCGS, perhaps it would be prudent for some members to slow down a bit, re-adjust their strategies and make safer choices.
6. over the years one constant rings true: there is always condemnation of PCGS and a refusal to accept responsibility for poor results.
7. I think the PCGS graders as a whole do a good job and are smarter than us as individuals when it comes to coin grading.
8. I prefer Cherry Kool-aid.

oih82w8 · March 19, 2015 9:50PM

It's easy to "arm chair quarterback" other people's submissions after the fact. A chance was taken and he got the horns this time. We learn by doing...but until the human aspect is taken out of grading, results will vary. Sure it's a gamble sending in crack outs, and the sender would have a better chance getting the desired grade versus having a regrade where the present grader would take the path of least resistance and give it the same grade to move it down the line.

Play it again...

planetsteve · March 19, 2015 11:13PM

I recently sent in raw mercs that I had cracked out from several different TPGs (mostly PCGS) about 7 or 8 years ago to put in an album. (I decided that I didn't like the album effort after all, at least with MS67 dimes.) I got all kinds of funny results, ranging from a 44-S in ICG MS67 going to PCGS 67FB, to a 40-D NGC 67FB going to 66FB (which I expected), to a 37-P PCGS 67FB going all the way down to 65FB.

I figure I have a few things to learn.

Two general questions:

How many graders look at each coin?

In the OP's case, srsly, what was the point of cracking them out? Do we not trust the regrade process? Or reconsideration?

mercurydimeguy · March 19, 2015 11:51PM

Sometimes we are tainted by the ownership adds a point syndrome (not always).

I have a local younger coin dealer show me coins from time to time, I grade them as I see them (slab or no slab)...and as soon as I point out the problem with the coin he says, "oh I see." Sometimes the coins have glaring problems that for some reason he doesn't see, but as soon as I show them he can't wait to move the coin...it's like ownership blindness or something.

I have close to 80% CAC sticker rate on my coins, and a decent eye, and still I get it PCGS-right about 7 out of 10 times (because there are different variations of right, the only right that matters here is how PCGS will see it, not how everyone else will see it, and in addition how they will see it today versus how they say it 15 yrs ago...times change). But even PCGS themselves will only re-grade their coins "blindly" identically 7 to 8 out of 10 times, so when you crack there is a 20%-30% chance that even IF the coin IS all there, it still will come back at a lower grade. And if it wasn't all there to begin with, well then your chances plummet.

I've seen many a coin in their tomb (a 64 holder for instance), that a person wanted to send in for grading (cracked). Told them to save their money. The coin is 62 all day long, 63 50% of the time, but for it to get into a 64 holder would take a miracle...someone hit the lottery and lightning ain't going to strike 2x.

Anyhow, without pics and seeing the coins in hand it's hard to say, but I would wager that if the coins were truly all there a few more submissions (re grade, don't crack) might get them there. Remember on a regrade, all coins are cracked and the grader sees it raw anyway so there is zero point in cracking the coin out.

My 10 cents

ricko · March 20, 2015 12:56AM

Keets nailed it....

<< 1. there is risk involved with every submission.
2. with a crack-out that risk is increased.
3. multiple opinions on multiple coins seems to be a search for the highest possible result.
4. a re-grade submission would probably have been a safer compromise.
5. given the many negative responses directed toward the grading room at PCGS, perhaps it would be prudent for some members to slow down a bit, re-adjust their strategies and make safer choices.
6. over the years one constant rings true: there is always condemnation of PCGS and a refusal to accept responsibility for poor results.
7. I think the PCGS graders as a whole do a good job and are smarter than us as individuals when it comes to coin grading.
8. I prefer Cherry Kool-aid. >>

Cheers, RickO

CoinRaritiesOnline · March 20, 2015 1:07AM

<< 6. over the years one constant rings true: there is always condemnation of PCGS and a refusal to accept responsibility for poor results. >>

I tend to agree with this one.

coinpictures · March 20, 2015 1:28AM

We love hearing the success stories on crack out resubmits, but I've seen some horror stories with respect to that game. There's a regional bullion dealer that loves to crack out and resubmit, and while he's done well on some items, i has had his keester handed to him on others. One item in particular, a XF-ish 179X (I forget the exact date and grade that he cracked out of a PCGS holder and resubmitted, hoping for an upgrade...

It took 5 submissions, including 2 downgrades and 2 bodybag results along the way, just to get back into the same grade he started with... and he lost the OGH in the process.

I don't have the cajones to play that game. Reconsideration maybe, but not crack out.

Type2 · March 20, 2015 1:37AM

Hard to look at. It happens and this is when you need to look at the coins not the holder in times of tighter grading you will see better coins and it can go south when you find coins in holders that should not have been in the weaker years.

I see it all the time you can just look for holders and see how they change year to year not saying you don't have the eye but we need to change are grading with the new eyes looking at are coins as well.
I see this with this last year holders. I see some better coins in lower grades that will be crack outs in the years to come. Sorry to see this and good luck on you other submission to come.

BAJJERFAN · March 20, 2015 1:39AM

<< I recently sent in raw mercs that I had cracked out from several different TPGs (mostly PCGS) about 7 or 8 years ago to put in an album. (I decided that I didn't like the album effort after all, at least with MS67 dimes.) I got all kinds of funny results, ranging from a 44-S in ICG MS67 going to PCGS 67FB, to a 40-D NGC 67FB going to 66FB (which I expected), to a 37-P PCGS 67FB going all the way down to 65FB.

I figure I have a few things to learn.

Two general questions:

How many graders look at each coin?

>>

For real coins, usually 2 [sometimes 3] and a finalizer.

You have to wonder what they see the 2nd, 4th or 8th time that they misssed the other times.

asheland · March 20, 2015 1:45AM

Painful to read! I've had it happen to me also.
It's a risk you take.

planetsteve · March 20, 2015 1:53AM

Thanks bajjerfan. By "real coins," I assume you are referring to at least the series before 1965, if not everything except "Moderns" that just left the Mint.

GeorgeKellogg · March 20, 2015 2:25AM

PCGS might be able to fix this for you. The best way to do it would be to talk to the PCGS rep at a Show, when they have their "free consultation" promotion.

I purchased a famous James Stack Dahlonega piece in an NGC holder -- that had been in a PCGS AU50 holder in 1998, as part of the North Georgia collection. The coin was graded AU55 -- but I graded it AU50 -- possibly AU53. It was priced in a range commensurate with how I graded the coin. I submitted the coin at the Baltimore ANA in 2008 -- as a Crossover at any grade -- and it came back XF45, with Stack on the cert label.

I took the coin to the PCGS "free consultation," where David Hall was offering advice. I explained that the coin had been previously graded AU50 by PCGS and David sent it back to the grading room, where it came back graded AU50.

One has to remember that grading is an art, not a science, and is inherently subjective. Additionally, grading is an opinion. The graders that view submitted coins may be different individuals over time -- and thus have a different opinion.

I agree that there is never a reason to crack-out a PCGS-graded coin, as PCGS sends all Regrade Service coins to the grading room in the natural state (i.e., 'raw').

dbcoin · March 20, 2015 3:25AM

Considering that warranty claims as published daily are up 3X in the past few months, it does not surprise me they are grading conservatively

CoinJunkie · March 20, 2015 3:43AM

<< It's easy to "arm chair quarterback" other people's submissions after the fact. A chance was taken and he got the horns this time. We learn by doing...but until the human aspect is taken out of grading, results will vary. Sure it's a gamble sending in crack outs, and the sender would have a better chance getting the desired grade versus having a regrade where the present grader would take the path of least resistance and give it the same grade to move it down the line. >>

For coins already in PCGS holders, there is no (nada, Zero, ZILCH) reason to crack them. When you
submit under regrade service, PCGS will crack them before they go to the grading room. The graders
will not know what the previously assigned grade was, so there is no bias in that regard. Coins are
guaranteed not to downgrade, unless PCGS is willing to offer cash compensation.

To the OP, if a coin is "nearly borderline" DCAM, then it's CAM at best, and there is no reason to
submit it for an upgrade. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you basically invested $200 for an
education. It could have been a lot more expensive.

GMan · March 20, 2015 3:54AM

Yea regrade would have been the proper submission. Cracking a PCGS coin to send to PCGS for grading is not the way to go. Sorry for your losses though.

nencoin · March 20, 2015 4:00AM

<< Coin 2) Cracked out a really sharp fully prooflike 1921-D Morgan that was nearly a borderline DMPL as 21-D's go, lost the PL and it dropped a full grade point too. This one was a previous NGC 64PL and PCGS 64PL.

This kills me. >>

Cracking out 1921 dated Morgans with a PL designation is always going to be a risky move.

Rejoined Collectors Club, Cracked Out 3 PQ+ PCGS (1 NGC) Coins to Send in, and Got 4 DOWNGRADES

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