If they were downgrades from other services people would be nodding their heads in regard for the premier grading service. Since they were resubmissions, assuming they were not in any way handled or changed in being taken out of their PCGS slabs, possibly the same run of bad grades were a concurrent accident due to any one of a number factors; the order they were graded, what came before in the grading room, tough talk from management, etc.. You could follow the previous advice interfacing with management at a major show with all your evidence and paying for the re-grading too.
I agree with others that, at those levels, regrade should have been used. Yes, it was done before on many coins. Doesn't matter.
I did the same thing, on a lesser morgan, a couple of years ago. Lost my PL from an older holder. Only a MS63 and not a big $$$ difference (I thought it was at least a 64 and had a raw order going in, so I cracked it out to add it in). Came back still MS63 and no PL. Talking with some folks, I was told that the PL bar is much tougher today than it was years back....
<< <i>dragon, you just happened to catch the trough of the sine wave curve of coin grading. It happens to everyone at one time or another if you submit enough coins. >>
The grading services make so much moolah with the crackout game. Imagine how many 1938-d ms67 buffs have been cracked out and resubmitted hoping for that elusive ms68 grade.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i>The grading services make so much moolah with the crackout game. Imagine how many 1938-d ms67 buffs have been cracked out and resubmitted hoping for that elusive ms68 grade. >>
No joke. Also as others stated sending in raw was a mistake as you chose to allow them to be down graded. JMHO
I was looking at a big lot of some MS-67 Morgan's in NGC and PCGS and there was a lot of them that if they where sent in today they will not grade that. It's just crazy how some of the swings can be let me say this there was a lot more NGC graded MS-67 then PCGS like 8 to 1 if not more.
Either the great deflation cycle has begun or some grader's girlfriend had a headache the night before!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Show us the pictures so we can see what they and you saw. >>
Yep, looking forward to the large high resolution pictures, don't suppose they were trueviewed? that would really help, respect to dragon's skills, but let's see the coins
The crackout game is risky business. I have won some and lost others. There are more bad things that can happen on a crackout than good. Be prepared to have your rear end handed to you if you lose which obviously happened in your instance.
<< <i>Coin 2) Cracked out a really sharp fully prooflike 1921-D Morgan that was nearly a borderline DMPL as 21-D's go, lost the PL and it dropped a full grade point too. This one was a previous NGC 64PL and PCGS 64PL. >>
This crackout right here is just foolish. $3000 coin down to 75 bucks. Graders are not handing out PL designations like they used to.
<< <i>Just part of the grading process. I've seen dealers at shows grade coins harshly when in a bad mood and grade the same coins much more liberally when in a positive mood. It's just the human element of grading.
Everytime a coin comes out of the holder, there is risk. Some work, some don't.........and some work after enough submissions! >>
What I haven't seen discussed here yet is if the OP would have sent in the coins for regrade, then they would have come back at the same grade.
For 10 years I've been looking for this debate, full of paradoxes, to be handled openly and professionally.
I for one think that PCGS should only guarantee a grade for 1 year. This would eliminate a lot of "golden parachute" kind of attempts/activity.
So if you send in a coin for regrade that was graded 2 years ago, if it grades less today then it goes into a lower holder...they should treat all submissions more than 1 year old as "raw" even if it comes to their office in a PCGS holder.
I bet doing it this way, over the next 5 years, the coin market would be really in a more "right-sized" state...
The last 12 months have been under $500K for a while. Running at over $150K over 30 days for most of this quarter though it recently just went below $100K in the last few days
The last 12 months have been under $500K for a while. Running at over $150K over 30 days for most of this quarter though it recently just went below $100K in the last few days >>
Dbcoin, under what section does one navigate through to find " stats" ?
I've not been "re"collecting for five years, but the risk on crackouts is high and clearly apparent to me even from shortly after joking here, thanks to the members of this forum for sharing their experiences. But regarding reconsideration service, the coin is removed from its holder for grading? So, if one submitted a coin for reconsideration in a OGH ( for example ) and the grade remains the same, you still lose the OGH ? I might be willing to lose the OGH for a plus or a bump in grade in using the service, but to lose the OGH by just submitting it... That's a drawback I would not want to occur. If this is the case, thanks for the education before it happened to me.
Last time I had a coin cracked out was in the summer of 2013 on a 1904 Saint in PCGS/CAC MS-66 from Legend Numismatics and wondercoin resubmitted it raw and it upgraded to PCGS MS-66+
You have to really pick and choose very carefully this crack out game.
I prefer the crossover game. At least, your risk is minimized,
I am mindful of the movie "Lost In America," where the couple stops in Vegas and the wife loses the nest egg gambling, and the husband tries to convince the casino manager she didn't really mean it.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I really want to see the pictures. They will help us all understand what is going on with the coins and the grading. Unfortunately I have to believe that PCGS got it right unless I can see the coins.
To optimize NGC coin values you almost have to crack them out as most of them are worth some portion of the next grade down....and the odds of getting crosses are not in your favor. But there's really no reason to crack a PCGS coin....it's not 1989 any more. I've had some submissions over the year go completely against me. On one NGC submission back in 2002 I had 3/4 the coins come back 1-2 pts lower than had I just paid to buy them raw at auction. I was buried with those grades. My only option was to crack them all out and send them back. Most every coin came back a point higher, one of them (a MS65 seated half) came back 2 pts higher as MS67. Sometimes you do just catch a bad day at the TPG. One thing you can bank on, submit a decent, gradeable coin often enough and it will likely come back both higher and lower that it ought to . Grading on average is only repeatable about 60-80% of the time.
<< <i>I really want to see the pictures. They will help us all understand what is going on with the coins and the grading. Unfortunately I have to believe that PCGS got it right unless I can see the coins. >>
Which of the 2 times did they get it right, the first time or the second time?
<< <i>I really want to see the pictures. They will help us all understand what is going on with the coins and the grading. Unfortunately I have to believe that PCGS got it right unless I can see the coins. >>
Which of the 2 times did they get it right, the first time or the second time? >>
Are neither and both viable answers?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>I really want to see the pictures. They will help us all understand what is going on with the coins and the grading. Unfortunately I have to believe that PCGS got it right unless I can see the coins. >>
Which of the 2 times did they get it right, the first time or the second time? >>
That is the question for sure. Why they deemed one coin a $3,000 coin and now a $75 coin is really something I would like to see pictures of. My guess is if it is resubmitted enough it will get he previous grade.
Comments
I agree with others that, at those levels, regrade should have been used. Yes, it was done before on many coins. Doesn't matter.
I did the same thing, on a lesser morgan, a couple of years ago. Lost my PL from an older holder. Only a MS63 and not a big $$$ difference (I thought it was at least a 64 and had a raw order going in, so I cracked it out to add it in). Came back still MS63 and no PL.
Talking with some folks, I was told that the PL bar is much tougher today than it was years back....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
you paid for opinions and got them deal with it
COINS FOR SALE AT LINK BELOW (READ CAREFULLY)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oqym2YtcS7ZAZ73D6
<< <i>dragon, you just happened to catch the trough of the sine wave curve of coin grading. It happens to everyone at one time or another if you submit enough coins. >>
This.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I too just re-upped and Monday I sent off three NGC crackouts and two raw coins.
(Crossing fingers...)
<< <i>The grading services make so much moolah with the crackout game. Imagine how many 1938-d ms67 buffs have been cracked out and resubmitted hoping for that elusive ms68 grade. >>
No joke. Also as others stated sending in raw was a mistake as you chose to allow them to be down graded. JMHO
<< <i>That was painful to read.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
It's simple really. When you crack a coin out you will suffer the results be they positive or negative.
Crying or whining not allowed after negative results. Everyone knows the risks going in.
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>gra-de-flation? >>
Either the great deflation cycle has begun or some grader's girlfriend had a headache the night before!
<< <i>Show us the pictures so we can see what they and you saw. >>
Yep, looking forward to the large high resolution pictures, don't suppose they were trueviewed? that would really help, respect to dragon's skills, but let's see the coins
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>6. over the years one constant rings true: there is always condemnation of PCGS and a refusal to accept responsibility for poor results. >>
I tend to agree with this one. >>
I agree with this too, and citing #6 is a lot more tactful than calling someone an idiot four times over.
On my last submission of CBH crossovers, I was 18 out of 20, so I don't think know that PCGS is the problem.
<< <i>Considering that warranty claims as published daily are up 3X in the past few months, it does not surprise me they are grading conservatively >>
This makes a lot of sense. How much money does this equate to as being paid out?
<< <i>Coin 2) Cracked out a really sharp fully prooflike 1921-D Morgan that was nearly a borderline DMPL as 21-D's go, lost the PL and it dropped a full grade point too. This one was a previous NGC 64PL and PCGS 64PL. >>
This crackout right here is just foolish. $3000 coin down to 75 bucks. Graders are not handing out PL designations like they used to.
Dave
<< <i>Just part of the grading process. I've seen dealers at shows grade coins harshly when in a bad mood and grade the same coins much more liberally when in a positive mood. It's just the human element of grading.
Everytime a coin comes out of the holder, there is risk. Some work, some don't.........and some work after enough submissions! >>
This.
Free Trial
Latin American Collection
<< <i>If you don't know what you are doing then you are gambling. >>
Even if you do, you are gambling.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
sorry not going to sugar coat it
Next time you have $200 burning a hole in your pocket , why not buy a coin with it?
<< <i>
<< <i>Considering that warranty claims as published daily are up 3X in the past few months, it does not surprise me they are grading conservatively >>
This makes a lot of sense. How much money does this equate to as being paid out? >>
Where does one find these warranty claims published daily? Just wondering, link appreciated.
<< <i>Next time you have $200 burning a hole in your pocket , why not buy a coin with it?
It's a LOT more than 200 bucks. He is down 3 grand on the 21-D alone!
For 10 years I've been looking for this debate, full of paradoxes, to be handled openly and professionally.
I for one think that PCGS should only guarantee a grade for 1 year. This would eliminate a lot of "golden parachute" kind of attempts/activity.
So if you send in a coin for regrade that was graded 2 years ago, if it grades less today then it goes into a lower holder...they should treat all submissions more than 1 year old as "raw" even if it comes to their office in a PCGS holder.
I bet doing it this way, over the next 5 years, the coin market would be really in a more "right-sized" state...
I welcome your thoughts...
<< <i>I for one think that PCGS should only guarantee a grade for 1 year. This would eliminate a lot of "golden parachute" kind of attempts/activity.
I welcome your thoughts... >>
Why bother submitting.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Considering that warranty claims as published daily are up 3X in the past few months, it does not surprise me they are grading conservatively >>
This makes a lot of sense. How much money does this equate to as being paid out? >>
Where does one find these warranty claims published daily? Just wondering, link appreciated. >>
stats
The last 12 months have been under $500K for a while. Running at over $150K over 30 days for most of this quarter though it recently just went below $100K in the last few days
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Considering that warranty claims as published daily are up 3X in the past few months, it does not surprise me they are grading conservatively >>
This makes a lot of sense. How much money does this equate to as being paid out? >>
Where does one find these warranty claims published daily? Just wondering, link appreciated. >>
stats
The last 12 months have been under $500K for a while. Running at over $150K over 30 days for most of this quarter though it recently just went below $100K in the last few days >>
Dbcoin, under what section does one navigate through to find " stats" ?
US Civil War coinage
Historical Medals
US Civil War coinage
Historical Medals
Regrade the coin gets cracked.
You have to really pick and choose very carefully this crack out game.
I prefer the crossover game. At least, your risk is minimized,
<< <i>
<< <i>Next time you have $200 burning a hole in your pocket , why not buy a coin with it?
It's a LOT more than 200 bucks. He is down 3 grand on the 21-D alone! >>
True, but it's theoretically possible the coin could eventually return to its original grade. The $200
is gone for good.
<< <i>I really want to see the pictures. They will help us all understand what is going on with the coins and the grading. Unfortunately I have to believe that PCGS got it right unless I can see the coins. >>
Which of the 2 times did they get it right, the first time or the second time?
<< <i>
<< <i>I really want to see the pictures. They will help us all understand what is going on with the coins and the grading. Unfortunately I have to believe that PCGS got it right unless I can see the coins. >>
Which of the 2 times did they get it right, the first time or the second time? >>
Are neither and both viable answers?
<< <i>
<< <i>I really want to see the pictures. They will help us all understand what is going on with the coins and the grading. Unfortunately I have to believe that PCGS got it right unless I can see the coins. >>
Which of the 2 times did they get it right, the first time or the second time? >>
That is the question for sure. Why they deemed one coin a $3,000 coin and now a $75 coin is really something I would like to see pictures of. My guess is if it is resubmitted enough it will get he previous grade.