<< <i>Think this might change some minds about the value of a CAC sticker? Lol >>
It won't change my mind one bit. The people at CAC are people, and therefore, they make some mistakes. Can you tell me that every time they make a mistake, they will make good on it? I've been less than impressed by a number of Liberty Nickels in PC 66 that had stickers.
Your best bet, rather than buying slabs and stickers, is to know how to grade and know the people with whom you do business. A reputable dealer will buy back a coin you bought from him or her if it goes bad.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
But if I like coins, why shouldn't I be able to hire an expert and have them give me their opinion. I thought that is what a TPG was doing for me. The TPG is providing a service that allows me to buy better coins. However, what some are saying here is that the TPG are no longer providing the service they provided previously when it comes to puttied coins. What I am hearing is that I now need to have the coins CACed to guarantee there is no putty altering the coins appearance. I am just saying that as a customer of a TPG, I would like to be able to put my full trust in them, and not feel I have to rely on some fourth party like CAC.
The TPG gives you an opinion on the coin in question after anywhere from a 3 second to 30 second review. It doesn't say how many times they gave opinions on this coin or how many different grading teams saw it in the past. You can imagine that some coins have been seen half a dozen or more times and ended up in the highest holder achieved. That certainly doesn't mean that a coin that went 64, 63, 64, 64, 64, 65 is indeed a MS65. In fact I'd say from the average it's anything but a MS65. Paying an astute grader for a more than 30 second look would more than likely reveal that they agree the coin is not a MS65......after all, only 16% of the submissions thought it was. A coin can also look dramatically different the week of puttying/submission vs. months/years later. The grade or opinion on a coin is rarely constant. Something in the market or with the market participants is always in flux to render a different judgement on a different day.
I agree with the Colonel - if I can't attend an auction (or if I don't trust my own eyeballs), I am quite happy to be prepared to pay 5% to a bidder's rep that I know and trust to check an item out and bid for me. I have saved loads of money using reps that point out "played with" lots. I have even had a rep stop bidding on a lot for me when he suspected the auction house and consignor were "playing games" during the live auction. A good bidder's rep is worth far more than the 5% you would pay him on any winning lots.
Interesting topic and one that is potentially "touchy" to discuss on a forum paid for and sponsored by PCGS.....
Philosophically...... The hobby was completely revolutionized by the concept of TPG grading a couple of decades ago. Most everyone agrees that this moved the hobby/industry forward in an unprecedented way. What gave the TPG grading process teeth, staying power, and significance was first, impartiality, and second, the grade guarantee. Without a guarantee, the grade on the label doesn't mean as much. Standing behind their product seems to be the fundamental difference between the top-tier companies and the various grading services that don't seem to last long. If the guarantee weakens, naturally there isn't as much confidence in the product and an increased amount of uncertainty is introduced. Markets, in general, don't like uncertainty.......
Several competing interests are in play here. The TPGs exist to make a profit (and rightly so). The grade guarantee exposes them to a certain amount of risk in a widely disparate field full of fakes, forgeries, counterfeits, cheats (to call them doctors is an insult to physicians), charlatans, and people trying to make a quick buck. Coins can change over time. Corrosion can happen to perfectly good coins after slabbing. Unexpected things occur. Putty can be invisible at first. TPGs have gradually (and probably predictably) moved to lessen their exposure to these risks. What business wouldn't want to do that?
The TPGs have a fine line to walk between preserving confidence while not losing their shorts covering bad outcomes. Some of the coins they certify are fabulously expensive. I'd imagine that further "evolution" or weakening of the grade guarantee might, over time, also weaken the public's perception of the product in the wrapper. Yes, of course the best defense remains to be able to detect problems on your own and to avoid sight-unseen purchases, but if everyone could do that, there would have been no reason to create TPG grading in the first place! Ten years ago a person buying RD copper in a TPG holder had very little to worry about. Today it's a riskier endeavor as the guarantee no longer covers that, etc., etc.
Yes, it's a hobby...... for most. More than a few people base their living off of this "hobby". Most upper-end hobbyists fancy themselves as "closet investors", imagining that they are outwitting the masses while knowing deep down that it might not work out that way. Preservation of capital is important for anyone in this game.
In the end I suppose you just need to keep abreast of what the TPGs are doing and make buy/sell decisions consistent with that knowledge. It will never be risk-free. In the end I think it's in everyone's best interest to keep the guarantees as strong as possible. My own understanding of what the various TPG's guarantees mean is a little fuzzy right now. I too would be appreciative of any clarification the principals could provide.
I've thought about it and I believe in a sight unseen auction, there has to be at least a 3 day right to rescind. A lot of verticals have this policy when making a major purchase (it regulated/required by law). We don't want regulation in our hobby so why can't the big auction houses offer a 3 day return privilege from time of receipt? Clearly I would not have bid on it if I saw or bid a lot less to take into account conservation fees.
I think a certain amount of surface stuff is market acceptable and will not BB a coin...so I can't fault the TPG because people will buy/sell the coin all day long even though it's clearly puttied.
So the more I thought about it the more I think we need to lobby the major auction houses to institute at least a 3 day right of rescind on sight unseen internet purchases.
<< <i>Well, the auction industry in general has had a long time to develop their terms and conditions (which are in the front of every catalog).
I doubt very much if it's in the auctioneers' interest to allow a 3-day return policy.
That's one big reason why collectors hire representatives to view the item and bid for them.
If one can't do that, then purchasing from a trusted dealer (from whom one does get a return policy) is a very good way to go. >>
Just because someone has a published "no returns" policy doesn't mean that it's legally binding. It's a deterrent for 99.9% of the people, for sure, but if taken to court in context of how a coin is described versus the actual in-hand inspection of the coin, I would suspect that a judge would order a refund. Now that would likely cost you the ability to ever do business with them again, so in essence the major coin auction houses are running a questionable business scheme whereby in order to do business with them you need to agree to terms that are not necessarily enforceable in a court of law.
If you look at the various 3-day right of rescission laws (vary state by state), I think one could make a case for auction houses conducting business in the manner they day to be compliant with this law (depending on state).
Anyhow, don't want to get all litigious but essentially if you buy something sight unseen based on a description, and the description does not match the product sold, I think it's good business practice... Now no one might care, but I care
It doesn't sit well with me that they have no accountability at all...while every other venue requires some level of return privilege for consumers.
Comments
<< <i>Think this might change some minds about the value of a CAC sticker? Lol >>
It won't change my mind one bit. The people at CAC are people, and therefore, they make some mistakes. Can you tell me that every time they make a mistake, they will make good on it? I've been less than impressed by a number of Liberty Nickels in PC 66 that had stickers.
Your best bet, rather than buying slabs and stickers, is to know how to grade and know the people with whom you do business. A reputable dealer will buy back a coin you bought from him or her if it goes bad.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
The TPG gives you an opinion on the coin in question after anywhere from a 3 second to 30 second review. It doesn't say how many times they gave opinions on this coin or how many different grading teams saw it in the past. You can imagine that some coins have been seen half a dozen or more times and ended up in the highest holder achieved. That certainly doesn't mean that a coin that went 64, 63, 64, 64, 64, 65 is indeed a MS65. In fact I'd say from the average it's anything but a MS65. Paying an astute grader for a more than 30 second look would more than likely reveal that they agree the coin is not a MS65......after all, only 16% of the submissions thought it was. A coin can also look dramatically different the week of puttying/submission vs. months/years later. The grade or opinion on a coin is rarely constant. Something in the market or with the market participants is always in flux to render a different judgement on a different day.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
Philosophically...... The hobby was completely revolutionized by the concept of TPG grading a couple of decades ago. Most everyone agrees that this moved the hobby/industry forward in an unprecedented way. What gave the TPG grading process teeth, staying power, and significance was first, impartiality, and second, the grade guarantee. Without a guarantee, the grade on the label doesn't mean as much. Standing behind their product seems to be the fundamental difference between the top-tier companies and the various grading services that don't seem to last long. If the guarantee weakens, naturally there isn't as much confidence in the product and an increased amount of uncertainty is introduced. Markets, in general, don't like uncertainty.......
Several competing interests are in play here. The TPGs exist to make a profit (and rightly so). The grade guarantee exposes them to a certain amount of risk in a widely disparate field full of fakes, forgeries, counterfeits, cheats (to call them doctors is an insult to physicians), charlatans, and people trying to make a quick buck. Coins can change over time. Corrosion can happen to perfectly good coins after slabbing. Unexpected things occur. Putty can be invisible at first. TPGs have gradually (and probably predictably) moved to lessen their exposure to these risks. What business wouldn't want to do that?
The TPGs have a fine line to walk between preserving confidence while not losing their shorts covering bad outcomes. Some of the coins they certify are fabulously expensive. I'd imagine that further "evolution" or weakening of the grade guarantee might, over time, also weaken the public's perception of the product in the wrapper. Yes, of course the best defense remains to be able to detect problems on your own and to avoid sight-unseen purchases, but if everyone could do that, there would have been no reason to create TPG grading in the first place! Ten years ago a person buying RD copper in a TPG holder had very little to worry about. Today it's a riskier endeavor as the guarantee no longer covers that, etc., etc.
Yes, it's a hobby...... for most. More than a few people base their living off of this "hobby". Most upper-end hobbyists fancy themselves as "closet investors", imagining that they are outwitting the masses while knowing deep down that it might not work out that way. Preservation of capital is important for anyone in this game.
In the end I suppose you just need to keep abreast of what the TPGs are doing and make buy/sell decisions consistent with that knowledge. It will never be risk-free. In the end I think it's in everyone's best interest to keep the guarantees as strong as possible. My own understanding of what the various TPG's guarantees mean is a little fuzzy right now. I too would be appreciative of any clarification the principals could provide.
If the nose grease coin was newly slabbed then the TPG ought to have a good idea of who the greaser was no?
I think a certain amount of surface stuff is market acceptable and will not BB a coin...so I can't fault the TPG because people will buy/sell the coin all day long even though it's clearly puttied.
So the more I thought about it the more I think we need to lobby the major auction houses to institute at least a 3 day right of rescind on sight unseen internet purchases.
Thoughts?
I doubt very much if it's in the auctioneers' interest to allow a 3-day return policy.
That's one big reason why collectors hire representatives to view the item and bid for them.
If one can't do that, then purchasing from a trusted dealer (from whom one does get a return policy) is a very good way to go.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
<< <i>Well, the auction industry in general has had a long time to develop their terms and conditions (which are in the front of every catalog).
I doubt very much if it's in the auctioneers' interest to allow a 3-day return policy.
That's one big reason why collectors hire representatives to view the item and bid for them.
If one can't do that, then purchasing from a trusted dealer (from whom one does get a return policy) is a very good way to go. >>
Just because someone has a published "no returns" policy doesn't mean that it's legally binding. It's a deterrent for 99.9% of the people, for sure, but if taken to court in context of how a coin is described versus the actual in-hand inspection of the coin, I would suspect that a judge would order a refund. Now that would likely cost you the ability to ever do business with them again, so in essence the major coin auction houses are running a questionable business scheme whereby in order to do business with them you need to agree to terms that are not necessarily enforceable in a court of law.
If you look at the various 3-day right of rescission laws (vary state by state), I think one could make a case for auction houses conducting business in the manner they day to be compliant with this law (depending on state).
Anyhow, don't want to get all litigious but essentially if you buy something sight unseen based on a description, and the description does not match the product sold, I think it's good business practice... Now no one might care, but I care
It doesn't sit well with me that they have no accountability at all...while every other venue requires some level of return privilege for consumers.