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Your thoughts about TPG/Auction house responsibility in freshly graded coins with putty/nose grease
mercurydimeguy
Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭
Context... this question is not to bash the TPG's nor to stir pot so let's not have this thread go into that "emotional" direction 
I have a legitimate question and interested in others' point of view...
I do not have the ability to travel to coin shows and attend the public auctions (e.g. SB, HA, etc.). I do all my bidding online...
3 of the coins I won at auctions last year that were described as nice/high end coins, and photographed in a typical big auction house manner (e.g. not much help). I look at the slab number/kind to see when the coin was slabbed...so I know the appx. vintage. These were not cheap coins (all of the coins were 4 figures, one was $4.2k, one was $7.2k).
The 3 coin in question were all freshly graded (or regraded, but in any event they were in freshly numbered slabs), and they had obvious putty and/or nose grease and/or other surface alterations to hide either hairlines, or wear, or hits, or some/all of the above.
Ironically sellers on these boards we offer a return privilege, eBay mandates one, but none of the auction houses are held to the same standard (but we'll save that for another thread) yet their coins often sell for big premiums.
So I sent the 3 coins (throughout the course of the year) to the TPG with a note saying, I just bought this coin from XYZ auction, it is freshly graded, yet it is clearly puttied. What do you guys want to do, conserve it, etc? Let me know...
In each case I heard nothing, then about 1-2 months later the coin grade posted (same grade), I get the coin back conserved (e.g. putty removed), and a bill for $xxx dollars charged to my card for conservation and grading. The conservation costs on those coins put me WAY upside down (the $7.2k coin cost me nearly $500 all in, if I recall). The straw that broke the camel's back and made me post here is the most recent one, which cost me nearly $280...coin is currently being shipped back to me.
So the question I have for you is this...
- am I reading something into TPG guarantees and they are not responsible for this?
- are they responsible but charge me anyway and if I complain they will give me $$ back?
- are they responsible and charging me was an oversight (100% of the time)?
Curious to your thoughts, I don't want to start a scandal nor do I want to waste time arguing with the TPG if they are not responsible for slabbing coins (today...not 20 years ago) that have obvious surface alterations (obvious because they remove the alterations every single time I send it in for them to review...but they just happen to charge me for the privilege).
Thanks for your input...just trying to understand what I'm really "relying on" when I buy a coin at a premium in a 1st tier TPG holder from a 1st tier auction house.
EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to add, or is it the auction house responsibility to take these coins back?
I have a legitimate question and interested in others' point of view...
I do not have the ability to travel to coin shows and attend the public auctions (e.g. SB, HA, etc.). I do all my bidding online...
3 of the coins I won at auctions last year that were described as nice/high end coins, and photographed in a typical big auction house manner (e.g. not much help). I look at the slab number/kind to see when the coin was slabbed...so I know the appx. vintage. These were not cheap coins (all of the coins were 4 figures, one was $4.2k, one was $7.2k).
The 3 coin in question were all freshly graded (or regraded, but in any event they were in freshly numbered slabs), and they had obvious putty and/or nose grease and/or other surface alterations to hide either hairlines, or wear, or hits, or some/all of the above.
Ironically sellers on these boards we offer a return privilege, eBay mandates one, but none of the auction houses are held to the same standard (but we'll save that for another thread) yet their coins often sell for big premiums.
So I sent the 3 coins (throughout the course of the year) to the TPG with a note saying, I just bought this coin from XYZ auction, it is freshly graded, yet it is clearly puttied. What do you guys want to do, conserve it, etc? Let me know...
In each case I heard nothing, then about 1-2 months later the coin grade posted (same grade), I get the coin back conserved (e.g. putty removed), and a bill for $xxx dollars charged to my card for conservation and grading. The conservation costs on those coins put me WAY upside down (the $7.2k coin cost me nearly $500 all in, if I recall). The straw that broke the camel's back and made me post here is the most recent one, which cost me nearly $280...coin is currently being shipped back to me.
So the question I have for you is this...
- am I reading something into TPG guarantees and they are not responsible for this?
- are they responsible but charge me anyway and if I complain they will give me $$ back?
- are they responsible and charging me was an oversight (100% of the time)?
Curious to your thoughts, I don't want to start a scandal nor do I want to waste time arguing with the TPG if they are not responsible for slabbing coins (today...not 20 years ago) that have obvious surface alterations (obvious because they remove the alterations every single time I send it in for them to review...but they just happen to charge me for the privilege).
Thanks for your input...just trying to understand what I'm really "relying on" when I buy a coin at a premium in a 1st tier TPG holder from a 1st tier auction house.
EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to add, or is it the auction house responsibility to take these coins back?
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I would be very interested in what the logic here is, maybe Don can share with us what is going on in these situations.
My experience at the other major TPG was much better. They removed the putty and did not charge me anything, even covered the shipping.
Anyone else have similar stories?
In the slab era I don't expect the auction house to describe every fault on a coin, including PVC, putty, etc. as they work for the consignor...and to boost auction revenue. You always have the option of signing up a 3rd party at 5% commission to inspect lots for you. That's your way out. It really is in the realm of the TPG's and their grading guarantee. There are some people I know who will call the auction house on any lot they are interested in and have them note any significant flaws/issues about a coin they are considering. And if you do that you want an employee who knows their stuff & will give you the straight skinny, not just any old person with a pair of eyes. If you are a big customer of the auction house you might get them to take back a return once. After that, it's up to you to adapt. Buying $4K coins from photos is not fool proof. I've done it as well and there have been losers along the way.
The auction houses are also a place where the up-graders and coin docs sell their wares. Some of them are quite large and give significant cash flow to the auction houses. That's not going to change soon. Caveat Emptor has been the rule of law since I first started attending auctions in 1974. Any purchase at auction has to hold up as if the coin were raw and with all the responsibility on your shoulders short of a counterfeit/fake. Over the years I've seen "some" auction houses (both local ones and big ones) push their own generated problem and upgraded coins into their sales. It's how it is.
<< <i>I have had a very similar experience where a coin was returned from CAC with a little sticker that pointed out PVC. I sent the coin back to our host with a note to either consider this coin for a buy-back, or to please remove the PVC and reholder the coin. I received the coin back with a bill for the conservation services with no explanation. The PVC was gone, but I had to pay to have it removed.
I would be very interested in what the logic here is, maybe Don can share with us what is going on in these situations. >>
They made you pay to fix their mistake? That doesn't sound right. Did you call them back to find out why you were being charged to remove the PVC?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Obviously, the TPG would prefer to do exactly what they did. But if you asked them to contact you before doing anything to the coin, they should have done that.
FWIW, if I had a problem like that with a doctored coin, I would submit it under Guarantee Resubmission, with an explanation of the coin's problem.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Technically, that is correct. However, if the assigned grade does not properly reflect the condition of the coin, which takes into account anything that was done to the coin, the guarantee should kick in. Remember, not all cleaning and/or doctoring automatically prevents a coin from receiving a grade. Many coins are net graded, properly and intentionally.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>It seems after reading the PCGS guarantee that it only covers the grade of a coin and not whether it was puttied/doctored.
Technically, that is correct. However, if the assigned grade does not properly reflect the condition of the coin, which takes into account anything that was done to the coin, the guarantee should kick in. Remember, not all cleaning and/or doctoring automatically prevents a coin from receiving a grade. Many coins are net graded, properly and intentionally. >>
Since PVC has no-grade designation number I would suspect it should not have made it into the plastic without being called out. Not to say anything except it was missed, and was graded. Therefore for the $50 or so dollars it cost to conserve it seems like it falls within the scope of a valid use of the guarantee. But that is just my opinion.
<< <i>Obviously, the TPG would prefer to do exactly what they did. But if you asked them to contact you before doing anything to the coin, they should have done that.
FWIW, if I had a problem like that with a doctored coin, I would submit it under Guarantee Resubmission, with an explanation of the coin's problem. >>
Andy, I thought I did but perhaps I did not, but EVERY single one I sent in with a hand written note specifically on the submission form so even if I accidentally ticked the wrong box (I don't have submissions forms in front of me now), the 4-6 hand written sentences over the entire submission form are kind of a dead giveaway
But again, if ticked the wrong box, I guess technically fault's on me...
Regarding dealer representation, well that's the $7.2k coin...I spoke to the dealer about looking at it live at the auction and if it was nice bidding on it for me, and I'd buy it. Never heard from the dealer again...assumed coin was bad. Low and behold the dealer bought the coin...after some formalities (cough cough) and deciding not to bicker because the dealer is THE foremost expert on this type of coin, I paid the dealer appx 10% over the hammer and got the coin ($6.6k --> $7.2k)
Upon receipt of the coin it was obvious it had putty, but I said nothing to the dealer (I guess my utter stupidity!). I was intimidated because he is THE foremost dealer in that area and he thought the coins was a steal/nice so who am I to tell him otherwise. But my eyes and loupe and CAC don't lie, it was obviously covered in putty to hide certain sins. I sent the coin in to the TPG, and of course, it was covered in putty; the TPG restored it and charged me nearly $500 in total restoration fees even though I told them it was just freshly slabbed and I'm sending it in for review.
Anyhow, not crying over spilled milk, putty has been removed from all the 3 coins and I'm out nearly $1k in restoration fees (call it expensive education), but essentially my sense from the feedback is that no one is responsible, it's totally buyer beware...
<< <i>
<< <i>Obviously, the TPG would prefer to do exactly what they did. But if you asked them to contact you before doing anything to the coin, they should have done that.
FWIW, if I had a problem like that with a doctored coin, I would submit it under Guarantee Resubmission, with an explanation of the coin's problem. >>
Andy, I thought I did but perhaps I did not, but EVERY single one I sent in with a hand written note specifically on the submission form so even if I accidentally ticked the wrong box (I don't have submissions forms in front of me now), the 4-6 hand written sentences over the entire submission form are kind of a dead giveaway
But again, if ticked the wrong box, I guess technically fault's on me... >>
Did you call PCGS and ask them why you were charged to fix their mistake?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Customers not happy, they go elsewhere.
It is important to use the proper submission type, i.e., Grade Guarantee, Conservation, etc. A typed and signed letter, and a saved
copy of letter plus a saved image may go a long way also.
I personally feel there should be no charge to the customer.
On one hand I see any TPG service should make it good.
On the other hand they are in business to make a profit.
Nothing beats seeing a coin in hand, NOTHING!
let the buyer beware on sight unseen deals.
Actually, no. The TPG grades and authenticates coins. It does not provide a full "condition report".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
bob
<< <i>I thought PCGS uses a sniffer to catch nose grease or putty....are we talking about NGC or ANACS?
bob
Only on Secure level of grading, I believe...
bob >>
Only on Secure level of grading, I believe...
PCGS has the same degree of liability on Secure and non-Secure coins. So, regardless of how the coin is submitted, why would PCGS not use all tools available to them to protect themselves?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I have never mastered it,
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I guess you could have asked for that since they were problem coins not graded as such.
Regarding dealer representation, well that's the $7.2k coin...I spoke to the dealer about looking at it live at the auction and if it was nice bidding on it for me, and I'd buy it. Never heard from the dealer again...assumed coin was bad. Low and behold the dealer bought the coin...after some formalities (cough cough) and deciding not to bicker because the dealer is THE foremost expert on this type of coin, I paid the dealer appx 10% over the hammer and got the coin ($6.6k --> $7.2k)
Upon receipt of the coin it was obvious it had putty, but I said nothing to the dealer (I guess my utter stupidity!). I was intimidated because he is THE foremost dealer in that area and he thought the coins was a steal/nice so who am I to tell him otherwise. But my eyes and loupe and CAC don't lie, it was obviously covered in putty to hide certain sins.
I have never placed a lot of faith in having dealers look and bid for me
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Regarding dealer representation, well that's the $7.2k coin...I spoke to the dealer about looking at it live at the auction and if it was nice bidding on it for me, and I'd buy it. Never heard from the dealer again...assumed coin was bad. Low and behold the dealer bought the coin...after some formalities (cough cough) and deciding not to bicker because the dealer is THE foremost expert on this type of coin, I paid the dealer appx 10% over the hammer and got the coin ($6.6k --> $7.2k)
Upon receipt of the coin it was obvious it had putty, but I said nothing to the dealer (I guess my utter stupidity!). I was intimidated because he is THE foremost dealer in that area and he thought the coins was a steal/nice so who am I to tell him otherwise. But my eyes and loupe and CAC don't lie, it was obviously covered in putty to hide certain sins.
I have never placed a lot of faith in having dealers look and bid for me >>
I agree, and apparently tipping your hand to this foremost expert dealer, who saw the opportunity here to get his beak wet along the way.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Given the ability of coin doctors and the like to use foreign material that is virtually invisible to the grader at the time of grading to alter the surface of the coin, the TPGs have decided to no longer take liability for the surface of the coin. I do not blame them. The owner of the coin now bears the liability, but the TPG now provides a service that will, for a fee, assist the owner with the professional removal of the foreign substance.
This makes sense to me. If the TPG were to be indefinitely liable for coins turning in holders, the TPG would have a bottomless and timeless liability that could, over time, bankrupt the company. It really is not fair to the TPG, IMO, and I say that as one who has had to personally deal with expensive coins that have turned in the holder.
In other words, you buy it, and it is your responsibility.
<< <i>There has been a shift in the TPG position over the last 10-12 years.
Given the ability of coin doctors and the like to use foreign material that is virtually invisible to the grader at the time of grading to alter the surface of the coin, the TPGs have decided to no longer take liability for the surface of the coin. I do not blame them. The owner of the coin now bears the liability, but the TPG now provides a service that will, for a fee, assist the owner with the professional removal of the foreign substance.
This makes sense to me. If the TPG were to be indefinitely liable for coins turning in holders, the TPG would have a bottomless and timeless liability that could, over time, bankrupt the company. It really is not fair to the TPG, IMO, and I say that as one who has had to personally deal with expensive coins that have turned in the holder.
In other words, you buy it, and it is your responsibility. >>
However CAC i know from experience will buy their coins off the market if they have been found to have been doctored
My question is about coins that were slabbed weeks or a month/two before the auction. Surely the putty doesn't have time delay mechanisms
So yeh of course for older coins but coins that were slabbed then immediately auctioned (via internet) ...
- no return policy by auction houses
- no responsibility claim by TPG
Kind of strange ... can't think of many places on the economy where such a paradigm would be condoned...
Edited to add: it's less about buying a coin back but not charging to remove the surface alteration.
I think that this is true regarding many aspects of the business end of the hobby. There is very little regulation, and what policing exists is spotty at best. Collectors need to understand this--and I fully agree with RYK--and act with great caution when thinking about buying a con. Relying on another party to bail you out of a bad purchase is not smart.
What I do not understand is why the buyer also let the dealer off the hook. If I discover that a dealer has sold me a doctored coin, it will be thrown back in his face in no time flat.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Edited to add: it's less about buying a coin back but not charging to remove the surface alteration. >>
I agree. If the submission form was filled out correctly and a note provided by the submitter saying I have an issue with this coin but I want to discuss my options first, the TPG should have contacted the submitter initially before taking action. I think the bigger problem is the company making a unilateral decision and then charging the customer. Would love to know the outcome even if it's several months down the road. Thanks for sharing.
I'm wired a bit altruistically so from time to time things don't make sense to me, but I accept the fact that it is what it is. I sometimes get caught up in the spirit of the hobby and forget about all the other dynamics.
Is freshly grading a coin withy putty or other surface alterations on it market acceptable? I guess probably, if it isn't too bad...
Does a dealer or an auction house or a TPG have an obligation to disclose it? Probably not (although this is not how I'm wired, I accept a contrary point of view).
The real issue that will continue to challenge our hobby is the internet and more/more transactions moving online.
One value proposition of a TPG was to provide surety in a sight unseen trading environment, but when they conceived the system they probably never envisioned the kind of volume that the internet created nor how the internet would change buying behavior.
The current "rules" of engagement of our hobby probably still work ok in a sight seen market (e.g. a show, a shop, sent for review, etc.), but the rules of engagement have become fundamentally broken in the internet economy and internet buyers are at the short end of that deal. I'm hoping someone takes an interest in this topic and brings up the debate, which needs to happen as the internet is here to stay.
Thanks again.
/mdg.
I was pleased to hear that CAC would buy back a puttied coin, if they sticker it. But it seems that we should not need a company like CAC to guarantee the graders, seems the graders should be all we need for a guarantee.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
It is the point, and in the current paradigm, surface issues are outside the realm of "grade and authenticity".
I would not trust my skills alone in buying, or coins I do not have a chance to review in person.
Then you should not purchase coins in those circumstances. They are luxury goods and artifacts of a great and rich hobby, not necessities, and they should not be a source for significant concern or angst.
Even the best get fooled by surface alterations, which can change and degrade over time. If you are not willing to take the risk, don't buy the coin. If you are willing to take the risk, the current position of the TPG is that they are not sharing that risk with you.
<< <i>It seems the whole point of getting a TP opinion is so I can have an expert look at the coin, and guarantee it for grade and authenticity.
It is the point, and in the current paradigm, surface issues are outside the realm of "grade and authenticity".
I would not trust my skills alone in buying, or coins I do not have a chance to review in person.
Then you should not purchase coins in those circumstances. They are luxury goods and artifacts of a great and rich hobby, not necessities, and they should not be a source for significant concern or angst.
Even the best get fooled by surface alterations, which can change and degrade over time. If you are not willing to take the risk, don't buy the coin. If you are willing to take the risk, the current position of the TPG is that they are not sharing that risk with you. >>
But if I like coins, why shouldn't I be able to hire an expert and have them give me their opinion. I thought that is what a TPG was doing for me. The TPG is providing a service that allows me to buy better coins. However, what some are saying here is that the TPG are no longer providing the service they provided previously when it comes to puttied coins. What I am hearing is that I now need to have the coins CACed to guarantee there is no putty altering the coins appearance. I am just saying that as a customer of a TPG, I would like to be able to put my full trust in them, and not feel I have to rely on some fourth party like CAC.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
The TPG is grading and authenticating coins. They are not your eyes, your advisor, your friend, or collecting soulmate.
I am just saying that as a customer of a TPG, I would like to be able to put my full trust in them, and not feel I have to rely on some fourth party like CAC.
It is probably better for you to understand what the role of the TPG is rather than focus on what you wish them to be. I would also caution you against relying on the CAC. I am certainly a proponent, but the only one you can truly trust is yourself...maybe.
<< <i>But if I like coins, why shouldn't I be able to hire an expert and have them give me their opinion. I thought that is what a TPG was doing for me.
The TPG is grading and authenticating coins. They are not your eyes, your advisor, your friend, or collecting soulmate.
I am just saying that as a customer of a TPG, I would like to be able to put my full trust in them, and not feel I have to rely on some fourth party like CAC.
It is probably better for you to understand what the role of the TPG is rather than focus on what you wish them to be. I would also caution you against relying on the CAC. I am certainly a proponent, but the only one you can truly trust is yourself...maybe. >>
I don't think you understand my point. The point is that TPGs provide a service, per what some are saying they have changed the level of service that they provide when it comes to puttied coins. If this is true, I as a consumer am saying I would like this service back.
You apparently are saying that I should not want this service, and should just rely on my own knowledge. You are missing the point.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
If you know the system is flawed, it's your responsibility to figure out how to traverse the gauntlet of consensus grading. . . .
It's always been the responsibilty of the auctioneer to pimp and shill the seller's property . . .
Anyone who won't buy expert technical insurance for 5% is a fool. . . .
I've also never gotten bad in-hand info from an auction house numismatist. They are highly scrupulous in the relating of faiults and virtues, and very open to, even delighted about, probing questions. . . . .
<< <i>
<< <i>But if I like coins, why shouldn't I be able to hire an expert and have them give me their opinion. I thought that is what a TPG was doing for me.
The TPG is grading and authenticating coins. They are not your eyes, your advisor, your friend, or collecting soulmate.
I am just saying that as a customer of a TPG, I would like to be able to put my full trust in them, and not feel I have to rely on some fourth party like CAC.
It is probably better for you to understand what the role of the TPG is rather than focus on what you wish them to be. I would also caution you against relying on the CAC. I am certainly a proponent, but the only one you can truly trust is yourself...maybe. >>
I don't think you understand my point. The point is that TPGs provide a service, per what some are saying they have changed the level of service that they provide when it comes to puttied coins. If this is true, I as a consumer am saying I would like this service back.
You apparently are saying that I should not want this service, and should just rely on my own knowledge. You are missing the point. >>
There are a lot of things that were different and better in the past. No TSA at airports, 25c ice cream cones, Terry Bradshaw throwing TDs to Lynn Swann in the Super Bowl, etc. Times change, people change, businesses change.
Let us suppose that the TPG is willing to take on the additional liability to guarantee the surface of the coin indefinitely. How much more are you willing to spend for it? $10 per coin? $100 per coin?
TPG is paid for the service of their expertise, should this not only include recognition of counterfeit AND altered?
<< <i>Quit buying from auctions over the internet. I have. There are still plenty of nice coins to buy. >>
Interesting strategy.
Do you still sell coins over the internet?
peacockcoins
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Per the consensus of several on this thread, "altered" does not apply to "surfaces. "(See for example RYK's immediately preceding post- not singling him out, just saying he seems to reflect the opinion of several on this thread). I can understand this as it relates to, say, a dipped coin turning in the holder, though in the good old days I had such a coin replaced no questions asked. However, the examples in the OP seem egregious. I am largely, but not completely, inactive now, and I guess TPG's came along a little late in the game (i started in the hobby around 1960) for me to not be a bit of a sceptic that anything will ever replace caveat emptor in the rules of the road as they apply in coin collecting, but I think the OP and our hosts ought to talk.
<< <i>Think this might change some minds about the value of a CAC sticker? Lol >>
Definitely.
<< <i>
<< <i>There has been a shift in the TPG position over the last 10-12 years.
Given the ability of coin doctors and the like to use foreign material that is virtually invisible to the grader at the time of grading to alter the surface of the coin, the TPGs have decided to no longer take liability for the surface of the coin. I do not blame them. The owner of the coin now bears the liability, but the TPG now provides a service that will, for a fee, assist the owner with the professional removal of the foreign substance.
This makes sense to me. If the TPG were to be indefinitely liable for coins turning in holders, the TPG would have a bottomless and timeless liability that could, over time, bankrupt the company. It really is not fair to the TPG, IMO, and I say that as one who has had to personally deal with expensive coins that have turned in the holder.
In other words, you buy it, and it is your responsibility. >>
However CAC i know from experience will buy their coins off the market if they have been found to have been doctored >>
And well they should since you are paying them for more than just grade affirmation.
They should put that in their return policy. Then again I did not ask if he was a ANA member. I could clearly see I was wasting my time.
I think the whole coin industry needs to tighten up our ethics.
That ship sailed a century and a half ago.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection