1925 Saint $20 PCGS MS-64 with reverse concave star
oreville
Posts: 12,124 ✭✭✭✭✭
Interesting!
I bought this today. I do remember seeing this a few times but not often at all.
Look at the star which is concave above the eagle's head. It is a complete star which is the opposite in dimension to the obverse stars.
It is definitely not a after-mint punch mark as the luster totally matches the rest of the coin surface.
I believe a star separated fom the prior coin that was struck in 1925 and somehow clinged to the die then creating this coin and a few after this coin before the die was retired or the star fell off the die or was removed.
Your thoughts?
I can bring this coin to FUN if anyone wants to study it further.
1925 Saint
I bought this today. I do remember seeing this a few times but not often at all.
Look at the star which is concave above the eagle's head. It is a complete star which is the opposite in dimension to the obverse stars.
It is definitely not a after-mint punch mark as the luster totally matches the rest of the coin surface.
I believe a star separated fom the prior coin that was struck in 1925 and somehow clinged to the die then creating this coin and a few after this coin before the die was retired or the star fell off the die or was removed.
Your thoughts?
I can bring this coin to FUN if anyone wants to study it further.
1925 Saint
A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
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Comments
Is this the pic?
Thanks
I take lousy pics and will take it to FUN for better pics.
I also forgot how to link it to my photobucket correctly.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Looks pretty cool.
My table # is. 924
Fred
I was thinking of you when I was thinking of bringing it to FUN!
I saw your double on New Years eve!!!!
<< <i>John Albanese also saw it and said he has seen these reverse stars only about a half dozen times on the 1925 Saints. >>
Then I gather a dropped star (letter) is out of the question?
Are you guys having a private coin show or something?? Colonel, JA et al?? I'm jealous!
The right coast is still better than the left coast!
<< <i>and somehow clinged to the die
Are you guys having a private coin show or something?? Colonel, JA et al?? I'm jealous!
We had lunch together with JA in fact
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
The Saint is now in Orlando and will be bringing it to Fred Weinberg in the morning (Thursday morning).
Bill Jones has looked at it
Bill Shamhart has looked at it
Todd has taken pics
<< <i>Lakes,
The right coast is still better than the left coast! >>
Are you looking South or North when saying this.
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>Fred has looked at it
Bill Jones has looked at it
Bill Shamhart has looked at it
Todd has taken pics >>
And they said?????
<< <i>Saw it in person today - pretty cool!
So was it struck through a dropped star, or a star-shaped bag mark from a star on the edge of another $20?
It is my understanding that Saints were struck with the reverse die as the hammer die, so it would be very interesting to hear how a dropped star from the collar die could end UP on the reverse die!
2009 Numismatist of the Year
Posts: 19999
Joined: Nov 2005
<< <i>
<< <i>Saw it in person today - pretty cool!
So was it struck through a dropped star, or a star-shaped bag mark from a star on the edge of another $20?
It is my understanding that Saints were struck with the reverse die as the hammer die, so it would be very interesting to hear how a dropped star from the collar die could end UP on the reverse die! >>
Anybody?
Class?
Bueller?
Also Fred will hopefully chime in with his opinion as well.
Bill Shamhart as well.
Doug Winters as well.
Bill Jones as well.
The dropped letter/star idea has been disregarded.
I am trying to let the others speak as I am NOT the expert here.
If the dropped star from the segmented collar theory is to be pursued further, the edge would need to be examined. If the star is from the collar, that section of the collar should have a cud sticking out from the edge of the coin. If all of the stars are intact, then the dropping segmented collar theory could only work if the star came from another die pair.
It is an interesting item, but putting value on it would be tough. It's not kind of that that would lower the value, given the overall grade of the coin, but could add some value for the right buyer.
It was a small bit of a stumper, because:
1. There was no surrounding disruption outside
of the 'star' outline, which should have been
evident, if it were hit by the edge of another $20.
2. If it were a 'dropped star', from either the edge
star or from the obv. stars, I would have also
expected to see some 'texture' just outside the
indented star, from the 'dropped' material being
pressed into the surface of the coin.
3. The inside of the star had thin fine lines in it, &
in my view, if it were a dropped star, you wouldn't
see those fine lines inside the incused star from
the cause of the dropped star material.
My conclusion is that it probably was caused by
contact from another coin - but it was not an easy
piece to figure out......and, I'll concede there is a very
small chance I'm wrong - but, as I said at the show,
it wouldn't be certifiable as a dropped star/letter type
at PCGS........
Hope this helps with the feedback on the coin.
Fred
My opinion: a hit from the edge of another Saint.
Interesting though.
Looking at this thread 5 years later..... this 1925 no longer has any extra value because gold became much more costly. So now the value is all in the bullion.
Fortunately I still have this coin and had totally forgotten about it until now!!
I've seen this before on other Saints. Saints have a lettered and starred edge. It's nothing more than a contact mark from another Saint where the starred edge of one hit the field area of this Saint. It's nothing special and is considered damage like any other contact mark.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yup, PMD.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Missed this thread the first time around.... Very interesting issue and discussion. The pictures by Todd are really great and conclusion is logical. Thanks for bringing this thread back... Cheers, RickO
Very cool coin, would love to own it
When this thread first appeared gold was around $1200. A lot has changed since then....with MS64 slabbed saints now selling for over $2200 wholesale.
You are getting old. You replied to this thread in 2015.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman....Yes indeed....I am getting old, but beats the alternative
Missed that little detail...Cheers, RickO
I still don't see evidence of the track mark of the edge of the "striking" coin. I really thing there ought to be to fit this model; or did the contact occur just perfectly leaving NO other stigmata?
I am not the expert, just observing what isn't there....
Well, just Love coins, period.