The "cleaned coin" dilemma

Steve1124 · January 6, 2015 12:33AM

How many times have you seen a coin for sale that captures your interest, only to see that dreaded qualifier: "cleaning", or "improperly cleaned", and suddenly the coin takes on a stigma, and in your mind the value plummets dramatically. It seems to me that these "third party graders" need to be more specific when it comes to assigning this qualifier, and not leave the coin's owner (and prospective buyers) in a dilemma, and wondering how much the coin's value has been depleted. Simply knowing that a coin has been "cleaned" can mean anything from a mild soap and water rinsing, or dipping done long ago, to scrubbing it down with baking soda, or using a brush and harshly cleaning it. the TPG leave this to we the collectors/owners to worry about. Why couldn't they simply place a number, which would indicate the LEVEL of cleaning the coin had undergone? For example: "cleaned - 1" could mean the coin was just lightly cleaned, perhaps long ago, and the coin's appearance is only minimally affected; "cleaned - 2" could mean more of a "moderate", and more noticeable cleaning, but still not terrible; and finally, "cleaned - 3" would be for coins where the cleaning is harsher, even with hairlines, and very obvious, even to the naked eye. How much more effort would this really require for the grader? Barely any! But it could make a HUGE impact on we, the potential buyers, who always must "guess" at a coin's value, when it has that kill-all qualifier. We could then come up with some kind of "formula", for example that a "cleaned - 1" coin is worth 3/4 of book value for that "details grade"; "cleaned - 2" maybe half; and "cleaned - 3" maybe 1/4 or less. I sincerely wish the Graders would give this idea some serious consideration.

yosclimber · January 6, 2015 12:51AM

The formula for value is going to be hard to come by.
This is because buyers vary greatly on how much they would discount or avoid a cleaned coin.
This is also why cleaned coins don't get a numeric / net grade.
One of the main reasons coins are slabbed is to make them easier to market. So the number of quality dimensions needs to stay low (just 1-2 - grade and color).

ricko · January 6, 2015 1:06AM

I believe that coins should be evaluated by the buyer/collector. I am not in favor of expanding the details included by TPG's....learn to grade and evaluate coins.... the skill enhances the enjoyment of the hobby. If someone else does all the work, than the collection is just an accumulation - not the result of personal effort/skill and diligence. Cheers, RickO

BigAl · January 6, 2015 12:35PM

I don't know whether assigning levels of "cleaning" is worthwhile, the market will ascertain the price.

I've purchased many cleaned bust halves - some have indicated cleaned on the holder and some not, but all have very nice eye appeal. Most are now cracked out and reside in Meghrig boards

RedTiger · January 6, 2015 12:48PM

yosclimber got it right. Each buyer is going to discount at a different level for each level of cleaning. There tends to be a much thinner market for coins in problem holders. Many collectors avoid those coins entirely, so for them the multiplier is basically zero or perhaps bullion value for those problem coins. So is the number zero when there are only maybe 30% or 66% of collectors and dealers are willing to make any reasonable bid?

The much bigger grey area is messed with coins in no-problem holders. It isn't a dilemma per se. It is part of the hobby and has been a part of the hobby for a very long time. There is no one-size fits all formula that will apply to every buyer or seller, even for no problem fresh from the mint coins in a pristine state. To ask for that when there are so many subjective factors with messed with coins, so many different kinds of collectors and dealers is beyond wishing for puppies and rainbows. Might as well wish for world peace while you are at it. Even if there were a number applied, certain buyers are going to say 50% of that number or 20% of that number is where they are buying at. Deal with it.

If a person collects pre-Morgan coins, messed with coins are part of the deal. Most collections have some messed with coins if the collection has been assembled during the past twenty or 30 years. It might be an old cleaning decades ago, or a more expert job only a few years ago. Docs are so good most experts have a hard time separating.

Baley · January 6, 2015 1:10PM

I agree with you very much Steve1124. For those who say, "let the seller and buyer decide", yep, that's a great argument against third party graders in the first place.

The point of slabbing is to give a neutral-bias, expert appraisal of the condition of the piece, folks can still decide the price for themselves, and once again I wholeheartedly agree with the OP, by just stating "cleaned" or "scratched" or whatever problem, there is no value-added opinion of the severity of the damage to the surfaces.

I really liked what ANACS used to do with a Details and Net grade, for example, AU details net EF45 for a very mild/ borderline warshing of a coin, AU details, net Fine 12 (or lower) for a badly hairlined and scrubbed white coin.

and, imo, the concept of "messed with" is just about as non-binary as can be, with coins, some folks say it either is or it ain't, but IMO there are obviously degrees of tampering and tinkering with coins, many of the "problem-free" coins I see on here and in the market have definitely (IMO) been worked on in one way or another

koynekwest · January 6, 2015 1:15PM

A "net" grade would be a GREAT idea!

lasvegasteddy · January 6, 2015 1:17PM

i'm very comfortable the current level of play here

what you suppose here sounds like a future sticker company in the making

the misfit coin sticker...maybe they could go from a rudolph sticker or roadkilled buck sticker

PerryHall · January 6, 2015 7:28PM

The biggest problem with cleaned coins is trying to sell them. Dealers don't want them unless they can get them at a low-ball cost and I certainly can't blame them.

lunytune2 · January 6, 2015 7:37PM

But why can a restored coin by PCGS be holdered as problem free ? All they are doing is cleaning the coin.

PerryHall · January 6, 2015 8:07PM

<< <i>But why can a restored coin by PCGS be holdered as problem free ? All they are doing is cleaning the coin. >>

Removing contamination from a coin (PVC residue for example) isn't considered cleaning. It's more properly considered conservation. "Cleaning" when used to describe coins normally implies a change or damage to the coin's surfaces such as dulling from over dipping or fine hairline scratches from wiping the surface of the coin.

Steve27 · January 6, 2015 8:13PM

Just for the record:

1) "mild soap and water rinsing" would NOT cause the coin to be labeled "cleaned"

2) "dipping" would NOT cause the coin to be labeled "cleaned"

3) " scrubbing it down with baking soda" would cause the coin to be labeled "cleaned"

4) "using a brush and harshly cleaning it" would cause it to be labeled "cleaned"

5) plus there are the times when the coin is labeled "cleaned" when it has NOT been cleaned (I refer to this as "submitters tax")

lunytune2 · January 6, 2015 9:39PM

Yes it is CONSERVATION ... but still a fancy word for cleaning it !

PerryHall · January 6, 2015 10:14PM

<< <i>Yes it is CONSERVATION ... but still a fancy word for cleaning it ! >>

Don't get hung up on semantics. There's nothing wrong with cleaning coins if it's done professionally which means that it's impossible to tell that it's been cleaned. We call this conservation. If there is evidence of a coin having been cleaned (hairlines, dulled surfaces, wrong color, etc), we just call it cleaned and so note it on the slab label. I guess we could call professionally conserved coins as "properly cleaned" and the others as "harshly cleaned" or "improperly cleaned". But, if a coin is properly cleaned the graders at the third party grading services would never know it and they wouldn't put any "cleaned" notation on the slab label. When they do put "cleaned" on the slab label, it's understood that the cleaning was performed improperly.

garrynot · January 6, 2015 10:45PM

I bought an 1857 half cent from my local B&M some years ago. It was a chocolate brown with a wisp of red across the obverse. I sent it to PCGS and it came back in a body bag "cleaned." I brought it back and the shop cheerfully accepted it back and said the coin was not cleaned. Thinking back on it, I believe him. I should have kept it.

COALPORTER · January 6, 2015 10:53PM

I love coins that get bagged for "light cleaning" , collecting those to save money is really similar
to the guys that run for AU58s instead of paying up for the "real deal" MS65s

19Lyds · January 6, 2015 11:21PM

"Cleaned" is only an opinion much like AU58 or MS63.

As such, Buyers should not place a "stigma" on the qualifier on the label but should instead make their own best judgment. It is quite possible that a coin slabbed as "Cleaned" could very well come back as an MS grade if cracked and submitted raw.

It has happened to me and it opened my eyes to the "opinions" with TPG graders.

Now, consider the following.

"Cleaning" can be totally acceptable depending upon the coin. Just like scratches.

Would you really turn away an 1804 Silver Dollar that had been cleaned? Then why turn away any other coin?

Judgment and experience can be your friend. Try not to let a TPG tell you otherwise.

winky · January 7, 2015 1:18AM

Cleaning is not for me. None in my collection ever.

winky · January 7, 2015 1:23AM

I see what you are saying about the 1804 dollar but I can't afford a 1804 dollar if it was bent, holed, scratched and wire brushed. Sorry I missed your post before I posted.

Baley · January 7, 2015 1:26AM

One should point out that it is very easy to avoid "cleaned" coins, as well as problems of any kind, when collecting modern coins which are widely available and affordable in mint state completely problem-free.

When a collection includes early coins, and coins that are scarce to rare in any condition, only the very wealthy collector can be so haughty as to disdain and eschew coins with "problems" of any kind, including cleaning. And as has been said, "market acceptable" problems abound even in coins graded by the certification companies.

I personally also do not collect common coins with cleaning or other problems. However, I proudly collect truly rare coins with various problems.

All coins graded below 70 are Net Grades

DollarAfterDollar · January 7, 2015 2:02AM

The actual complaint here isn't whether a coin labeled cleaned has actually been cleaned. Many, many coins that go to TPG companies return in body bags labeled "cleaned" but what has really happened is that the coin doesn't actually fit anywhere in the black art of "market grading".

Once a coin returns as "cleaned" smart collectors try like hell to determine why. Sometimes a careful examination will illustrate what the surface issue is, sometimes the surface can be properly re-cleaned in acetone then rinsed thoroughly (I've done this successfully). Other times the graders just don't trust the color is natural and return a coin as "ungradable".

Since there's no requirement to explain themselves, this is the hand we're dealt. From that point on the owner has a choice, send it back for another try, keep it as is or sell it as cleaned or original if he/she disagrees. It's the buyers responsibility to determine if it has been cleaned and to assign a value based upon their determination.

I'd love to know what percentage of disputed "cleaned" coins pass muster the second time through?

TwoSides2aCoin · January 7, 2015 2:19AM

Eye appeal and market acceptable are not synonymous and more times than not, they will clash in the same sentence.

mustangmanbob · January 7, 2015 2:31AM

Maybe the problem is the word "cleaned" itself.

Removing PVC is taking off something that was not on the coin originally, but can be removed without impacting the physical coin. AKA conservation.

The "bad" cleaning indicates that the physical surface of the MINTED coin was disturbed, to remove a stain, tarnish, etc. so that the coin is now damaged, ie hairlines, scratches, dulled out.

When my kids were little, I could CLEAN their dirty hair, so that is was MOM acceptable, but not so that it left scratches, etc.

Maybe a wording change is in order, more along altered surfaces.

topstuf · January 7, 2015 3:06AM

The plan for cleaned coins should be cracking out and taking it to a dealer who might not notice or care.
Without the label billboard screaming "PROBLEM" it would likely do just fine in a 2x2 awaiting a buyer who thinks they know stuff.

s4ny · January 7, 2015 9:46PM

<< <i>The plan for cleaned coins should be cracking out and taking it to a dealer who might not notice or care.
Without the label billboard screaming "PROBLEM" it would likely do just fine in a 2x2 awaiting a buyer who thinks they know stuff. >>

I had some "cleaned" 1840's O mint gold eagles. Purchased them just over melt. When I sold all my
cleaned gold on a gold price spike, I got a good price. I am sure they were cracked out,
as they were would be worth 2x melt even at XF40.

ambro51 · January 7, 2015 10:19PM

I had a coin come back cleaned and JA looked at it closely and said it wasn't.

puffer · January 7, 2015 10:29PM

I find it ridiculous for the stigmatic "cleaning" to be applied so aggressively in many instances, especially by NGC. And with Bust halves, etc. I have used the Mehrig board option and in six months resubmit and no net or details holder. And I have spoken with major dealers who have many coins in a sunny windowsill reacting with the elements and waiting for market acceptable condition. Possibly a grading service will at some point offer a conservation, restoration service with results no dealer dare mention as to their actual methods. As long as they are not doctored, I am fine with it. And Skip Fazzari who was with NCS now at ICG talked about how the "cleaning" stigma is often ridiculous as what seems to be cleaning can happen accidentally without harsh processes, in the pocket, handling, etc.. Warren Mills looked at a bunch of NGC/PCGS certified numerically graded coins and called 70% of them "cleaned", so sometimes the standard becomes extreme.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 7, 2015 10:49PM

Mostly cleaned is the amateur's clock.

Patches · January 7, 2015 10:49PM

I bought one of my favorite coins at a steep discount when it was in a XF Details cleaned PCGS holder. I had little interest in ever paying full retail for this date. I cracked it out to complete the set, and it resides right next to all of the other dates and looks perfect with them in their Dansco album. I have been offered twice what I paid for this date from multiple people, and none of them have ever mentioned they think it's cleaned. So yes, there is a stigma attached to coins in problem holders...a small percentage of these possibly deserve to be in graded holders. But as with buying any coin, do your due diligence.

DeepCoin · January 8, 2015 1:26AM

Right now I have a 1826 Bustie, O 107 that has been cleaned. I am going to put it on eBay at $ 0.99 starting bid and let everyone know it has issues. Someone will love it.