Options
The "cleaned coin" dilemma
Steve1124
Posts: 198 ✭
How many times have you seen a coin for sale that captures your interest, only to see that dreaded qualifier: "cleaning", or "improperly cleaned", and suddenly the coin takes on a stigma, and in your mind the value plummets dramatically. It seems to me that these "third party graders" need to be more specific when it comes to assigning this qualifier, and not leave the coin's owner (and prospective buyers) in a dilemma, and wondering how much the coin's value has been depleted. Simply knowing that a coin has been "cleaned" can mean anything from a mild soap and water rinsing, or dipping done long ago, to scrubbing it down with baking soda, or using a brush and harshly cleaning it. the TPG leave this to we the collectors/owners to worry about. Why couldn't they simply place a number, which would indicate the LEVEL of cleaning the coin had undergone? For example: "cleaned - 1" could mean the coin was just lightly cleaned, perhaps long ago, and the coin's appearance is only minimally affected; "cleaned - 2" could mean more of a "moderate", and more noticeable cleaning, but still not terrible; and finally, "cleaned - 3" would be for coins where the cleaning is harsher, even with hairlines, and very obvious, even to the naked eye. How much more effort would this really require for the grader? Barely any! But it could make a HUGE impact on we, the potential buyers, who always must "guess" at a coin's value, when it has that kill-all qualifier. We could then come up with some kind of "formula", for example that a "cleaned - 1" coin is worth 3/4 of book value for that "details grade"; "cleaned - 2" maybe half; and "cleaned - 3" maybe 1/4 or less. I sincerely wish the Graders would give this idea some serious consideration.
0
Comments
This is because buyers vary greatly on how much they would discount or avoid a cleaned coin.
This is also why cleaned coins don't get a numeric / net grade.
One of the main reasons coins are slabbed is to make them easier to market. So the number of quality dimensions needs to stay low (just 1-2 - grade and color).
I've purchased many cleaned bust halves - some have indicated cleaned on the holder and some not, but all have very nice eye appeal. Most are now cracked out and reside in Meghrig boards
The much bigger grey area is messed with coins in no-problem holders. It isn't a dilemma per se. It is part of the hobby and has been a part of the hobby for a very long time. There is no one-size fits all formula that will apply to every buyer or seller, even for no problem fresh from the mint coins in a pristine state. To ask for that when there are so many subjective factors with messed with coins, so many different kinds of collectors and dealers is beyond wishing for puppies and rainbows. Might as well wish for world peace while you are at it. Even if there were a number applied, certain buyers are going to say 50% of that number or 20% of that number is where they are buying at. Deal with it.
If a person collects pre-Morgan coins, messed with coins are part of the deal. Most collections have some messed with coins if the collection has been assembled during the past twenty or 30 years. It might be an old cleaning decades ago, or a more expert job only a few years ago. Docs are so good most experts have a hard time separating.
The point of slabbing is to give a neutral-bias, expert appraisal of the condition of the piece, folks can still decide the price for themselves, and once again I wholeheartedly agree with the OP, by just stating "cleaned" or "scratched" or whatever problem, there is no value-added opinion of the severity of the damage to the surfaces.
I really liked what ANACS used to do with a Details and Net grade, for example, AU details net EF45 for a very mild/ borderline warshing of a coin, AU details, net Fine 12 (or lower) for a badly hairlined and scrubbed white coin.
and, imo, the concept of "messed with" is just about as non-binary as can be, with coins, some folks say it either is or it ain't, but IMO there are obviously degrees of tampering and tinkering with coins, many of the "problem-free" coins I see on here and in the market have definitely (IMO) been worked on in one way or another
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
what you suppose here sounds like a future sticker company in the making
the misfit coin sticker...maybe they could go from a rudolph sticker or roadkilled buck sticker
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>But why can a restored coin by PCGS be holdered as problem free ? All they are doing is cleaning the coin. >>
Removing contamination from a coin (PVC residue for example) isn't considered cleaning. It's more properly considered conservation. "Cleaning" when used to describe coins normally implies a change or damage to the coin's surfaces such as dulling from over dipping or fine hairline scratches from wiping the surface of the coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
1) "mild soap and water rinsing" would NOT cause the coin to be labeled "cleaned"
2) "dipping" would NOT cause the coin to be labeled "cleaned"
3) " scrubbing it down with baking soda" would cause the coin to be labeled "cleaned"
4) "using a brush and harshly cleaning it" would cause it to be labeled "cleaned"
5) plus there are the times when the coin is labeled "cleaned" when it has NOT been cleaned (I refer to this as "submitters tax")
<< <i>Yes it is CONSERVATION ... but still a fancy word for cleaning it ! >>
Don't get hung up on semantics. There's nothing wrong with cleaning coins if it's done professionally which means that it's impossible to tell that it's been cleaned. We call this conservation. If there is evidence of a coin having been cleaned (hairlines, dulled surfaces, wrong color, etc), we just call it cleaned and so note it on the slab label. I guess we could call professionally conserved coins as "properly cleaned" and the others as "harshly cleaned" or "improperly cleaned". But, if a coin is properly cleaned the graders at the third party grading services would never know it and they wouldn't put any "cleaned" notation on the slab label. When they do put "cleaned" on the slab label, it's understood that the cleaning was performed improperly.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
to the guys that run for AU58s instead of paying up for the "real deal" MS65s
As such, Buyers should not place a "stigma" on the qualifier on the label but should instead make their own best judgment. It is quite possible that a coin slabbed as "Cleaned" could very well come back as an MS grade if cracked and submitted raw.
It has happened to me and it opened my eyes to the "opinions" with TPG graders.
Now, consider the following.
"Cleaning" can be totally acceptable depending upon the coin. Just like scratches.
Would you really turn away an 1804 Silver Dollar that had been cleaned? Then why turn away any other coin?
Judgment and experience can be your friend. Try not to let a TPG tell you otherwise.
The name is LEE!
When a collection includes early coins, and coins that are scarce to rare in any condition, only the very wealthy collector can be so haughty as to disdain and eschew coins with "problems" of any kind, including cleaning. And as has been said, "market acceptable" problems abound even in coins graded by the certification companies.
I personally also do not collect common coins with cleaning or other problems. However, I proudly collect truly rare coins with various problems.
All coins graded below 70 are Net Grades
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Once a coin returns as "cleaned" smart collectors try like hell to determine why. Sometimes a careful examination will illustrate what the surface issue is, sometimes the surface can be properly re-cleaned in acetone then rinsed thoroughly (I've done this successfully). Other times the graders just don't trust the color is natural and return a coin as "ungradable".
Since there's no requirement to explain themselves, this is the hand we're dealt. From that point on the owner has a choice, send it back for another try, keep it as is or sell it as cleaned or original if he/she disagrees. It's the buyers responsibility to determine if it has been cleaned and to assign a value based upon their determination.
I'd love to know what percentage of disputed "cleaned" coins pass muster the second time through?
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody.
Removing PVC is taking off something that was not on the coin originally, but can be removed without impacting the physical coin. AKA conservation.
The "bad" cleaning indicates that the physical surface of the MINTED coin was disturbed, to remove a stain, tarnish, etc. so that the coin is now damaged, ie hairlines, scratches, dulled out.
When my kids were little, I could CLEAN their dirty hair, so that is was MOM acceptable, but not so that it left scratches, etc.
Maybe a wording change is in order, more along altered surfaces.
Without the label billboard screaming "PROBLEM" it would likely do just fine in a 2x2 awaiting a buyer who thinks they know stuff.
<< <i>The plan for cleaned coins should be cracking out and taking it to a dealer who might not notice or care.
Without the label billboard screaming "PROBLEM" it would likely do just fine in a 2x2 awaiting a buyer who thinks they know stuff. >>
I had some "cleaned" 1840's O mint gold eagles. Purchased them just over melt. When I sold all my
cleaned gold on a gold price spike, I got a good price. I am sure they were cracked out,
as they were would be worth 2x melt even at XF40.
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody.
<< <i>Mostly cleaned is the amateur's clock. >>
+1
coinzip.com